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[Ieldra]

Oh, this thread, this thread. The last, hope for Tevinter, the LAST?

 

Pfffffffff, we're doing fine, we have no need for a "last" hope.

Well yes, the people with their heads deep in the sand would say that....

[Uccio]

 

Except even in ancient times there were cultures whose values didn't include slavery, so nothing modern about it. Plus Thedas, even Tevinter, is already filled with modern values. 

 

 

It was still more of a norm at that time. And I´d rather have less modern values in Thedas. It´s more fun that way.

[rx00]

Why should the slave trade end? It is one of the core functions of the Imperium through out the ages. Romans did just fine with it.

Put moral things aside..... A slave trade (thus. an economic system based upon it) which only one country officially support can last for too long, not while other countries around you is also developing and growing stronger. Sooner or later, a reformation has to happen, or the whole Imperium will collapse, just like Rome. And Tevinter isn't even surrounded by barbaric, low organized tribes.

[SmilesJA]

Well yes, the people with their heads deep in the sand would say that....

 

I want Calpernia to be the queen of Tevinter!

[Master Warder Z_]

I want Calpernia to be the queen of Tevinter!

I want her confirmed dead after her plunge off a cliff.

[Ieldra]

Put moral things aside..... A slave trade (thus. an economic system based upon it) which only one country officially support can last for too long, not while other countries around you is also developing and growing stronger. Sooner or later, a reformation has to happen, or the whole Imperium will collapse, just like Rome. And Tevinter isn't even surrounded by barbaric, low organized tribes.

I'm afraid an economic and political evaluation of slavery systems isn't as simple as one might think. It depends very much on the specifics of the situation. Also, I am unaware of any hypothesis that slavery contributed significantly to the collapse of the Roman Empire. Tevinter's problem, as I see it, is attrition and isolation. They're living off the glory of the ancient times and don't see how their strength is abraded by miniscule amounts every year because the magisters are more concerned with their internal rivalries, because of the endless war with the qunari, and because there is a lack of cultural exchange. They're not entirely to blame for this since the Orlesian Chantry made them anathema, and that had much less do to with tangible evils than with ideological differences about magic, but nonetheless the situation is as it is. 

[Master Warder Z_]

When Tevinter finally falls all of Thedas will know the greatest evil to ever walk the land has finally been purged.

It's Andraste's will after all.

[Ieldra]

It was still more of a norm at that time. And I´d rather have less modern values in Thedas. It´s more fun that way.

I actually agree about this. The thing is, I don't want Tevinter to be so evil that I feel like I'm supporting the villain. So I'd like a few things to be mitigated - and actually, with regard to slavery anything but mitigation would be rather implausible anyway, if we want to preserve Tevinter's strength as a bulwark against the qunari.

 

The one thing I think needs to go completely is the human sacrifice as a semi-acceptable practice.

[Uccio]

Put moral things aside..... A slave trade (thus. an economic system based upon it) which only one country officially support can last for too long, not while other countries around you is also developing and growing stronger. Sooner or later, a reformation has to happen, or the whole Imperium will collapse, just like Rome. And Tevinter isn't even surrounded by barbaric, low organized tribes.

 

What Leldra said. There is no indication that slave trade is the key catalyst for the alleged downfall of the Imperium. In fact what the Inq suggests is that most of the countries around the Imperium are having internal struggles and are in no position to threaten Tevinter. It just might go the other way around.

[Master Warder Z_]

Bah let the oxen invade; their prior conquest was turned back in a tide of righteous blood as the next one will be.

Any minute purpose Tevinter holds is geographically tied at best.

[Uccio]

I actually agree about this. The thing is, I don't want Tevinter to be so evil that I feel like I'm supporting the villain. So I'd like a few things to be mitigated - and actually, with regard to slavery anything but mitigation would be rather implausible anyway, if we want to preserve Tevinter's strength as a bulwark against the qunari.

 

The one thing I think needs to go completely is the human sacrifice as a semi-acceptable practice.

 

Migitation is one way. What I would like is to Bio to show all the aspects of the slavery. Bad and even the good sides (if one wants to call them that), such as Dorian presents them. And then let the player decide what is the moral he/she wants to follow. 

I also believe the Imperium is the only thing keeping the qunari from rolling through Thedas so I don´t want to see them fall.

 

And I want to preserve the human sacrifice for my power hungry Magister playthrough  .

[Master Warder Z_]

You know the funny thing is...Tevinter being there didn't stop the Qunari from spreading from Par Vollen all the way to the waking sea in the prior war.

They merely besieged them and kept going.

Stupid, short sided move but it didn't impact their performance overly in the other theaters.

[Uccio]

Or, without the Imperium on the way they would have rolled all the way to corcari wilds and dales.

[Master Warder Z_]

Or, without the Imperium on the way they would have rolled all the way to corcari wilds and dales.

If the Imperium hadn't existed in some hypothetical scenario the only true difference I'd see in the war would be one less front.

They still would have had to go through Rivain, Antiva, The Free Marches and the place they didn't even reach in the actual conflict.

Nevarra.

To even reach Orlais.

This is a pointless exercise but you know what isn't? Looking at the lore and accrediting victory to the faction that actually did the heavy lifting.

White Thedas won that war.

[Ieldra]

And I want to preserve the human sacrifice for my power hungry Magister playthrough  .

While I'd love to play a magister - unlike you, I'd prefer more of a reformist one - I wouldn't get my hopes up. DA's stories have to accommodate the usual three classes, so a magister main character whose background actually matters in more than cosmetics is unlikely to happen.

 

It's more likely - should we get to influence things in Tevinter at all - we'll get to support specific NPCs like Calpernia.

 

Edit:

As for the qunari, evidence does suggest that Tevinter is the only thing holding them at bay at the moment. Because of the Imperium, any real invasion is likely to be considered too costly. Only the Inquisition may have changed the picture somewhat, since it has become a focus for co-operation. My Inquisitor certainly wouldn't have any qualms pulling the strings of a faith she doesn't believe in should there be any chance of kicking the qunari back across the sea.

[Lady Artifice]

I personally want the "evil empire" in the narrative, because I think that makes the world and the story more interesting. I find it fascinating as it is...the the point that if we went there, it was undergoing a state of reform, I'd be a little disappointed. 

[TEWR]

If Tevinter is made into this evil empire going forward with only a few exceptions to the rule to convey some sort of "We're not ALL bad" idea I'm going to tear my beard out.

 

I find something more nuanced, like Archadia in FFXII, to be far better -- where you see a much more even representation of society.

[Uccio]

If the Imperium hadn't existed in some hypothetical scenario the only true difference I'd see in the war would be one less front.

They still would have had to go through Rivain, Antiva, The Free Marches and the place they didn't even reach in the actual conflict.

Nevarra.

To even reach Orlais.

This is a pointless exercise but you know what isn't? Looking at the lore and accrediting victory to the faction that actually did the heavy lifting.

White Thedas won that war.

 

Maybe, then again:

By 6:42 Steel: The Qunari have conquered much of the Tevinter Imperium, Rivain, and Antiva and begin to assault the Free Marches. Only Minrathous itself remains besieged but unconquered in the north    "much of"

By 6:85 Steel: Massive rebellions in Tevinter manage to free the Imperium, and the Qunari lines begin to crumble

 

So claiming that the Imperium was not a force to be reckoned with against the qunari is rather pompous claim.

[Uccio]

I personally want the "evil empire" in the narrative, because I think that makes the world and the story more interesting. I find it fascinating as it is...the the point that if we went there, it was undergoing a state of reform, I'd be a little disappointed. 

 

Exactly.

[Ieldra]

If Tevinter is made into this evil empire going forward with only a few exceptions to the rule to convey some sort of "We're not ALL bad" idea I'm going to tear my beard out.

 

I find something more nuanced, like Archadia in FFXII, to be far better -- where you see a much more even representation of society.

There's nothing "made". The Evil Empire is Tevinter's current status. And in fact, I want it to be something more nuanced. Mainly because there are too many things I like about it, and because the main reason it's reviled by the rest of Thedas lies in something I see as an awesome undertaking done by the wrong people for the wrong reasons, and gone horribly wrong because of it, rather than an embodiment of "sin". I get the feeling the story wants me to agree to Andrastianism's assessment of the attempt to reach the Golden City, and that I will never do.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I wished Calpernia was available on the Mage side of the questline.

 

I mean, I would trade her over Samson any day. Not that Samson is a bad villain since his story is a rather tragic one.

 

But rather Calpernia is a villain you can reason with.

 

You can show her evidence that she is being screwed by Corypheus (now there is an image for you all to imagine  ),  she will accept it,  request that you let her go, and she will not harm you any further. 

 

As for Tevinter slave trade, I doubt it will remain in place. Slavery is actually an extremely inefficient way of utilizing resources. If you notice, in the real world, slavery is only practiced by societies that have not technologically advanced or sufficiently mechanize to allow for machines or in Thedas' case, magic to do the work. 

 

No society in history that has practice slavery has ever survived the test of time. Ever. Tevinter will not be able to escape this rule unless Bioware writers used their powers of artistic ingenuity to make it so. 

[Delphine]

I wished Calpernia was available on the Mage side of the questline.

 

I mean, I would trade her over Samson any day. Not that Samson is a bad villain since his story is a rather tragic one.

 

But rather Calpernia is a villain you can reason with.

 

You can show her evidence that she is being screwed by Corypheus (now there is an image for you all to imagine  ),  she will accept it,  request that you let her go, and she will not harm you any further. 

 

Agreed. I completed two playthroughs while siding with the mage, and nowhere in there was Calpernia ever mentioned. And then I saw someone completing the last quest while having sided with the templars, and I found it a thousand times more interesting how you're given options to deal with her, while Samson is basically just a complete lost cause and has to die.

I wish to see more of her in future DLC/Games, though, but I might be hoping for too much here.

[Ieldra]

Agreed. I completed two playthroughs while siding with the mage, and nowhere in there was Calpernia ever mentioned. And then I saw someone completing the last quest while having sided with the templars, and I found it a thousand times more interesting how you're given options to deal with her, while Samson is basically just a complete lost cause and has to die.

I wish to see more of her in future DLC/Games, though, but I might be hoping for too much here.

Or perhaps not, since the writers went out of their way to avoid any confirmation of her death. In fact, I think it's pretty safe to assume she's alive.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Or perhaps not, since the writers went out of their way to avoid any confirmation of her death. In fact, I think it's pretty safe to assume she's alive.

I'm inclined to believe she's still alive as well. Her 'suicide' attempt felt iffy to me.

[Uccio]

I wished Calpernia was available on the Mage side of the questline.

I mean, I would trade her over Samson any day. Not that Samson is a bad villain since his story is a rather tragic one.

But rather Calpernia is a villain you can reason with.

You can show her evidence that she is being screwed by Corypheus (now there is an image for you all to imagine ), she will accept it, request that you let her go, and she will not harm you any further.

As for Tevinter slave trade, I doubt it will remain in place. Slavery is actually an extremely inefficient way of utilizing resources. If you notice, in the real world, slavery is only practiced by societies that have not technologically advanced or sufficiently mechanize to allow for machines or in Thedas' case, magic to do the work.

No society in history that has practice slavery has ever survived the test of time. Ever. Tevinter will not be able to escape this rule unless Bioware writers used their powers of artistic ingenuity to make it so.

Magic, that will keep Tevinter running. A country where magic is not a curse but a gift. Mages in the Imperium should be substantially better and stronger than their southern brothers because they have embraced and honed their skills all their life. Unlike the southern mages who are barely tought to control themselves.