681 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Supporting Cory is enough of a crime to kill that buck toothed witch several times over

[Dai Grepher]

She's gap-toothed, not bucktoothed. And she supported someone she thought she knew but didn't. When she was shown what Corypheus truly was, she stopped supporting him. She was deceived.

[Master Warder Z_]

Uh she was perfectly content to help him plot global domination and a war that killed a continent.

She's worse then Stalin

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She's gap-toothed, not bucktoothed. And she supported someone she thought she knew but didn't. When she was shown what Corypheus truly was, she stopped supporting him. She was deceived.

No, when she was shown that Corypheus was going to betray her she stopped supporting him. 

[Dai Grepher]

Uh she was perfectly content to help him plot global domination and a war that killed a continent.

 

She didn't plot anything. The whole plan was Corypheus' and perhaps Lucius and Samson added their own suggestions. Calpernia didn't even recruit the mages. Alexius did that. She merely accompanied Cory to Haven and helped him attack it. Other than that she recruited various slaves into the Venatori cause and granted them better treatment in the process. This was all while under the impression that what Cory was doing was for the good of Tevinter and the world.
 

[Dai Grepher]

No, when she was shown that Corypheus was going to betray her she stopped supporting him. 

 

It was shown that Corypheus lied to her about the Well of Sorrows, and that he had mistreated her old mentor Erastinies in order to perfect the binding spell he would use on her. She then remarks that he made so many promises and all of them were lies. She realized what he was in that instant and turned on him for that reason. It wasn't just that she was "betrayed". It had to do with Erastinies being mistreated, Cory lying to her about various things (the Temple of Dumat), and that he was not upfront and honest with her about the Well. Had he told her about the binding being necessary to cancel out the compulsion, she probably would have agreed to it willingly. Instead, I'd bet that Cory told her that she would be filled with arcane knowledge and that he would trust her to be the world's guiding light of some sort.
 

[Master Warder Z_]

She didn't plot anything.

Ha! Seriously? The red lyrium huffing,Tevinter fanatic slavers? I don't know if you just didn't pay attention or not but those sack jobs are monsters.

Because sweeter Maker above, according to you, a top Lt apparently doesn't do much, serious delusion that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Calpernia was Corypheus' second in command. She'd have to have been in privy to everything except what he had planned for himself and her. She's also in charge of the Venatori, she's responsible for everything they were guilty of. 

 

The Venatori are bad people. They are murderous megalomaniacal imperialists. So is Calpernia. There's a reason Dorian takes special satisfaction in killing them. Their codex even says how their intent is to "spill the blood of the south."

[Dai Grepher]

Ha! Seriously? The red lyrium huffing,Tevinter fanatic slavers? I don't know if you just didn't pay attention or not but those sack jobs are monsters.

Because sweeter Maker above, according to you, a top Lt apparently doesn't do much, serious delusion that.

 

The red lyrium was on Corypheus (who met with Bianca), and then Lucius who corrupted the templars, and then Samson who was to lead them. Other lesser folk such as Denam and Carrol were also involved, but not Calpernia. At best we only see her along side a red lyrium knight-captain outside the Temple of Mythal, and that was more of a case of the red templar being with Corypheus than with her. She also wrote a note to the red templars to stay in the Wilds and hold the line while the Wardens accompanied Corypheus.

 

She killed one of the slavers, that we know of. She was all about freeing the slaves, not keeping them bound.

 

Lieutenants have their own separate roles to play. One need not know what the others do. Calpernia's role was to recruit for the Venatori and uncover artifacts that would help Corypheus. 

[Dai Grepher]

Calpernia was Corypheus' second in command. She'd have to have been in privy to everything except what he had planned for himself and her. She's also in charge of the Venatori, she's responsible for everything they were guilty of. 

 

The Venatori are bad people. They are murderous megalomaniacal imperialists. So is Calpernia. There's a reason Dorian takes special satisfaction in killing them. Their codex even says how their intent is to "spill the blood of the south."

 

She was a lieutenant, not a second. And had the Inquisitor not intervened she would have been a mind bound slave to Corypheus' spell.

 

No, just because she led the Venatori at certain points in the game doesn't mean she always led them or is responsible for the things they do. Corypheus is always the main commander. If he tells the Venatori to do something, they do it. And the first one to lead the Venatori was Alexius. Most of the bad stuff that happened was under his direction. Also, when Calpernia turns on Corypheus, Venatori morale takes a huge hit, but there are still some Venatori still active. Which means she did not command all of them. She was just a figurehead.

 

War is war. When presented with the facts, Calpernia made the right choice.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Alexius was not the leader of the Venatori. He had just joined them during Hushed Whispers. Calpernia was Corypheus most powerful, important and influential servant, there's nobody else who was hinted at being his right hand. She also used some of the Venatori to try to spy on him, so clearly they are in part, loyal to her.

[Master Warder Z_]

This is like hearing defense for Bin Laden

[Dai Grepher]

Alexius was not the leader of the Venatori. He had just joined them during Hushed Whispers. Calpernia was Corypheus most powerful, important and influential servant, there's nobody else who was hinted at being his right hand. She also used some of the Venatori to try to spy on him, so clearly they are in part, loyal to her.

 

Yes he was, both in the present and the future.

 

I don't deny that Calpernia was powerful and a lieutenant, and I don't deny she led the Venatori. But just because she did doesn't mean she knew of all its dealings. Corypheus was the main leader of the Venatori. They did as he commanded. Some are loyal to her, but not all.
 

[Caddius]

Yes he was, both in the present and the future.

 

I don't deny that Calpernia was powerful and a lieutenant, and I don't deny she led the Venatori. But just because she did doesn't mean she knew of all its dealings. Corypheus was the main leader of the Venatori. They did as he commanded. Some are loyal to her, but not all.
 

 

Yes he was, both in the present and the future.

 

I don't deny that Calpernia was powerful and a lieutenant, and I don't deny she led the Venatori. But just because she did doesn't mean she knew of all its dealings. Corypheus was the main leader of the Venatori. They did as he commanded. Some are loyal to her, but not all.
 

I'm afraid that I don't recall anything suggesting that Alexius was, future or present. He was recruited with the promise of healing Felix relatively recently, and only ever seemed to lead the Redcliffe Venatori. He was recruited and kept for his knowledge of time travel magic and his general expertise in 'weird ****'. In a Templar playthrough, one finds a letter from the Venatori that suggests he was executed by Corypheus after he handed him the Redcliffe mages. Which suggests that Corypheus viewed Alexius as a tool with limited use In the future, he's again kept alive for his time magic expertise, and has a handful of guards in Redcliffe, while Corypheus and the bulk of the Venatori dealt with everything else. He's a captive scientist, not a leader..

Is it known whether Corypheus created the Venatori, or if he just co-opted them? Their kind of cult seems like a natural consequence of the Imperium's state of affairs.

Anyways, when it comes to Calpernia's guilt, I'm coming down on the 'We don't really know for sure,' side of things. I doubt she'd engage in the cackling jackassery of an Erimond, but I doubt she'd see anything wrong with killing or terrorizing southerners if it got in the way of restoring Tevinter. She is part of a reactionary cult that's trying to restore a world empire, where the slaves' being sacrificed 'meant something'. And denying her any culpability in the Venatori's crimes, that she was unaware of what they were about, feels insulting to her intelligence. How could she not?

[Dai Grepher]

I'm afraid that I don't recall anything suggesting that Alexius was, future or present. He was recruited with the promise of healing Felix relatively recently, and only ever seemed to lead the Redcliffe Venatori. He was recruited and kept for his knowledge of time travel magic and his general expertise in 'weird ****'. In a Templar playthrough, one finds a letter from the Venatori that suggests he was executed by Corypheus after he handed him the Redcliffe mages. Which suggests that Corypheus viewed Alexius as a tool with limited use In the future, he's again kept alive for his time magic expertise, and has a handful of guards in Redcliffe, while Corypheus and the bulk of the Venatori dealt with everything else. He's a captive scientist, not a leader..

Is it known whether Corypheus created the Venatori, or if he just co-opted them? Their kind of cult seems like a natural consequence of the Imperium's state of affairs.

Anyways, when it comes to Calpernia's guilt, I'm coming down on the 'We don't really know for sure,' side of things. I doubt she'd engage in the cackling jackassery of an Erimond, but I doubt she'd see anything wrong with killing or terrorizing southerners if it got in the way of restoring Tevinter. She is part of a reactionary cult that's trying to restore a world empire, where the slaves' being sacrificed 'meant something'. And denying her any culpability in the Venatori's crimes, that she was unaware of what they were about, feels insulting to her intelligence. How could she not?

 

Aside from the fact that he outright commanded Venatori to do various things (the tranquil killings and occularum), he directly states that the southern mages are under his command. And in the bad future various notes show that he is the one they report to, just as he reports to the Elder One.

 

Yes, Alexius was a tool, but that doesn't mean he didn't lead the Venatori. Corypheus saw Calpernia as a tool as well.

 

If Corypheus did not create the Venatori, then Alexius did. His codex implies that he had a will to see Tevinter reclaim the top position in the world.

 

I agree that Calpernia wouldn't mind killing southerners if it meant restoring Tevinter to the position she desires for it. But the question is what her method would be. Blood sacrifices to repair cracked walls, or good old fashioned war to protect the cause of restoration? I think she's the later type. After all, restoring greatness necessarily involves outside perspective. It is useless to restore a country to marvel and prosperity if the people living there and maybe even foreigners believe that the country only achieved that restoration through ugly and despicable means. I think Calpernia wants to restore Tevinter in a way that is respectable. Mostly this involves destroying corruption within the Magisterium, such as in her short story when she maimed the slave owner who attacked her, or when she complained about the magister who took in wealth from the country for the purpose of structural upkeep but then spent it on himself.

 

About the slave sacrifice "meaning" something, I took that as her disapproving of the sacrifice, but recognizing that it at least accomplished something worthy of the life that was sacrificed. That compared to the present day, in which slaves are sacrificed for no reason at all, or just for amusement, or to power a spell slightly more.

 

If she was directed to specific tasks by Corypheus while other Venatori generals were directed to theirs, then Calpernia would have no way of knowing what those generals were up to. She may have even received false reports from those under her. Corypheus' plot was to keep Calpernia focused on her own role. The spy crystal shows that Cory put her under some kind of preparation or training regiment to become "the vessel". She wanted to visit the Temple of Dumat, claiming that she would have no distractions there. But he refused her that and told her to continue as before. We also learn from Vicinius' notes that Calpernia was purchasing slaves and paying extra to ensure that the slaves were not harmed while in a slaver's possession.

 

So if she was tasked to focus on becoming the vessel, while also acquiring new slaves to become Venatori, that would leave her with no way of knowing what the Venatori generals were doing under Corypheus' direction.

[Master Warder Z_]

*snorts*

This is starting to get sad.

I mean the person in question joined the Venatori in hopes of restoring Tevinter to what it was a thousand years prior, her delusions of whatever that was is irrelevant.

To achieve that aim is what is important because to achieve it, hundreds of thousands if not millions of people will die.

To restore the decaying empire she joined that movement for.

She was compliant in a attempt at extermination not rivaled in all of Thedosian history.

Those are indisputable facts.

Ultimately I'd not rate her as anything but a petty imperialist with delusions of grandeur.

[Caddius]

"I command the southern mages," is something he says directly about the southern mages, the Rebels. It's in the meeting with Fiona and the Herald. He's not talking about the Venatori, he's talking about the mages he's conscripted, and letting you know to negotiate with him, not Fiona. The reports in the future are from the Venatori working directly under him, and agents trying to find the Herald so he can finish his work for Corypheus. He's not receiving requests for orders from Erimond or Calpernia or Servius. 

My distinct impression was that the Venatori were already formed when Felix fell ill, and that's when Alexius was recruited. Considering Blight illness, it was relatively recent. And Dorian and Felix reference him joining the Venatori, not forming it. As he was already of a similar political bent, it wasn't too difficult. Corypheus led the Venatori at that point. My theory is that the Venatori formed as a sort of gentlemagister's club, where the hardliners kept having quiet conversations and formed a sort of secret club. No outright leader, just an agreement to push their agenda forward in the Senate. Then when the magister from the glory days of the Imperium shows up with a plan and a bloody dragon, they get their leader.

While it's possible that Calpernia was kept in the dark from everything by Corypheus, I very much doubt it. The Breach, the Battle of Adamant, brazenly sending Venatori troops and assassins into the Winter Palace...People like to talk, and word of those spreads throughout the continent. Calpernia would be very foolish to have zero idea of what's happening. She shows an interest in the Shrine of Dumat, and doesn't seem to trust Corypheus implicitly. I don't think he would give a crap about hiding his actions from her that don't relate to her becoming the Vessel. After all, they're all done in the name of Tevinter rising again.

 

So my basic point is that Alexius wasn't the leader and that Calpernia was likely aware of and okay with most of the Venatori actions. 

[The Baconer]

The Venatori's crimes are her crimes. Still, should the next game take place in Tevinter, there is no doubt that her continued existence will make things more interesting.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd rather the next game take place in central Nevarra

I'd take one detailed environment over a half dozen bland and lifeless one's.

Plus Nevarra would be interesting, overly more then Tevinter

[Dai Grepher]

"I command the southern mages," is something he says directly about the southern mages, the Rebels. It's in the meeting with Fiona and the Herald. He's not talking about the Venatori, he's talking about the mages he's conscripted, and letting you know to negotiate with him, not Fiona. The reports in the future are from the Venatori working directly under him, and agents trying to find the Herald so he can finish his work for Corypheus. He's not receiving requests for orders from Erimond or Calpernia or Servius. 

My distinct impression was that the Venatori were already formed when Felix fell ill, and that's when Alexius was recruited. Considering Blight illness, it was relatively recent. And Dorian and Felix reference him joining the Venatori, not forming it. As he was already of a similar political bent, it wasn't too difficult. Corypheus led the Venatori at that point. My theory is that the Venatori formed as a sort of gentlemagister's club, where the hardliners kept having quiet conversations and formed a sort of secret club. No outright leader, just an agreement to push their agenda forward in the Senate. Then when the magister from the glory days of the Imperium shows up with a plan and a bloody dragon, they get their leader.

While it's possible that Calpernia was kept in the dark from everything by Corypheus, I very much doubt it. The Breach, the Battle of Adamant, brazenly sending Venatori troops and assassins into the Winter Palace...People like to talk, and word of those spreads throughout the continent. Calpernia would be very foolish to have zero idea of what's happening. She shows an interest in the Shrine of Dumat, and doesn't seem to trust Corypheus implicitly. I don't think he would give a crap about hiding his actions from her that don't relate to her becoming the Vessel. After all, they're all done in the name of Tevinter rising again.

 

So my basic point is that Alexius wasn't the leader and that Calpernia was likely aware of and okay with most of the Venatori actions. 

 

Conscripted into the Venatori. Thus he leads the Venatori. At this time, Samson was still a prospect for being Corypheus' lieutenant. It isn't until after the templars are brought into the Inquisition (or allied with) that Corypheus declares that Samson has failed but Calpernia stands ready.

 

Alexius did indeed receive reports from other Venatori, particularly the one regarding the occularum.

 

Erimond was working outside of the Venatori, as his association with them or Corypheus could not be revealed lest it turn the Wardens against him. He had to appear to them as a helpful lord from Tevinter who had a way of ending the Blights and the Calling.

 

Servis, likewise, was hired help. He was never a part of the Venatori, he merely provided his expertise to them in researching and recovering ancient artifacts.

 

I cannot refute the idea that Alexius was recruited into the Venatori, but my claim has always been that Corypheus founded it. In any case, Alexius was entrusted with a large group of Venatori for the purposes of recruiting the southern mages and finding a way to undo the past using time magic.

 

Why do you doubt it? One of Corypheus' memory crystals tells us that he kept things from Calpernia. He knew she would not understand his will, but in time she would forgive. If you only think that Corypheus would not hide the rest of his actions from her, then you admit this is only your opinion. While I respect that opinion, I can't say that's how it definately was in the canon.

 

I never said Alexius led ALL of the Venatori, clearly he didn't. But he did lead a group of them, just as Gordian did, or Lucanus did, or Duhaime did. Just because Calpernia led the attack on Haven or a small group that bought up slaves does mean she was involved or responsible for all the things those generals I just named did under Corypheus' instruction.

[The Baconer]

I'd take one detailed environment over a half dozen bland and lifeless one's.

 

On this I agree.

 

 

Plus Nevarra would be interesting, overly more then Tevinter

 

Nevarra would be fine, but more interesting than Tevinter? naaaaaaaahh.

[Master Warder Z_]

It seems like a bad place set a game from narrative and political consideration

[The Baconer]

It seems like a bad place set a game from narrative and political consideration

 

Why?

[Caddius]

Conscripted into the Venatori. Thus he leads the Venatori. At this time, Samson was still a prospect for being Corypheus' lieutenant. It isn't until after the templars are brought into the Inquisition (or allied with) that Corypheus declares that Samson has failed but Calpernia stands ready.

 

 

The Venatori are not up for discussion at that time. He presents himself as a normal Tevinter Magister who has conscripted the Mage Rebellion into the Imperium's army to serve and earn citizenship. He's not sneakily saying that he commands the Venatori, or even the newest conscripts. He recruits them, and then hands them over to Corypheus, who delegates to Calpernia. Though it would seem we agree on that?

Agreed with Erimond and Servius also not being leaders. My point was that Alexius wasn't in the elite of the Venatori, he was a tool used for a very specific task and then discarded because he didn't believe in the cause like Calpernia or Samson or even Erimond.

Regardless, as others have said, Calpernia is still a lieutenant in an army determined to conquer the world, that uses blood sacrifice, and snooty British accents. I'm not actually sure what we're debating at this point, though. 

As for the memory crystals, it only seems to mention his hiding the Shrine, Erasthenes, and the binding from her. We've very scarce information on Calpernia specifically, and the Venatori in general. Your supposition is as good as mine. *shrug*

 

I concur with the people saying that Nevarra would be interesting. I would just find Tevinter more interesting. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Why?

I don't want it focus on a martial application of the Qunari threat, its going to be done by the same low brow dipshits who can't grasp rudimentary medievil warfare.

Beyond that it would all but insist upon harping some god awful 21st century morality lesson at me the entire game.

So no.

I can do without