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[Master Warder Z_]

Also I'm not much interested in the setting anyway.

DAI was pretty damn awful

[The Baconer]

I don't want it focus on a martial application of the Qunari threat, its going to be done by the same low brow dipshits who can't grasp rudimentary medievil warfare.

Beyond that it would all but insist upon harping some god awful 21st century morality lesson at me the entire game.

So no.

I can do without

 

So it's not the setting itself that's the questionable part, but the writers' ability to do it justice. Understandable. Still, I wouldn't be confident in Nevarra producing anything more worthwhile in this case.

[Master Warder Z_]

Eh so little is known of Nevarra there isn't much to ruin

[Dai Grepher]

The Venatori are not up for discussion at that time. He presents himself as a normal Tevinter Magister who has conscripted the Mage Rebellion into the Imperium's army to serve and earn citizenship. He's not sneakily saying that he commands the Venatori, or even the newest conscripts. He recruits them, and then hands them over to Corypheus, who delegates to Calpernia. Though it would seem we agree on that?

Agreed with Erimond and Servius also not being leaders. My point was that Alexius wasn't in the elite of the Venatori, he was a tool used for a very specific task and then discarded because he didn't believe in the cause like Calpernia or Samson or even Erimond.

Regardless, as others have said, Calpernia is still a lieutenant in an army determined to conquer the world, that uses blood sacrifice, and snooty British accents. I'm not actually sure what we're debating at this point, though. 

As for the memory crystals, it only seems to mention his hiding the Shrine, Erasthenes, and the binding from her. We've very scarce information on Calpernia specifically, and the Venatori in general. Your supposition is as good as mine. *shrug*

 

I concur with the people saying that Nevarra would be interesting. I would just find Tevinter more interesting. 

 

Right, but he wasn't actually there on Tevinter's behalf, was he. Even if the mages are oblivious to it, he is Venatori, and that is what they were conscripted into.

 

I never said he commands the entirety of the Venatori, just his own large group which includes the southern mages. Corypheus commands the Venatori and delegates a certain group of them to her. He also lets her lead the main force against Haven.

 

I'm not sure if Alexius was elite or not, but I'd say he had the same role as Calpernia except for when she led the main force against Haven. That was somewhat higher up, although, the Alexius in the bad future may have had that rank since it can be reasonably assumed that Samson was around to be Corypheus' main lieutenant in leading the red templars. Which means in the bad future Cory wouldn't have needed Calpernia in that role, and so may have allowed Alexius to run those Venatori.

 

No, I'd have to say he believed in the cause pretty strongly. He still spouted all the crap about how the Elder One will restore Tevinter and it will rule from the Boaric Ocean to the Frozen Sea (or something like that). He only loses all resolve if Felix dies or if his time spell (from his perspective) fails to work.

 

I think we're debating Calpernia's knowledge of events. If she only knew what Corypheus told her, and he told her only what she needed to know about her own tasks, then she's not responsible for anything the Venatori did. But if she knew about all of it and was fine with it, then she's responsible because she went along with it willingly. But in her own words, she was blind. Corypheus was lying to her the whole time. To put it another way, Alexius was responsible for the tranquil slaughters and occularum. If Calpernia knew about that and still joined, then it's on her as well. But if she didn't know about it, then she's not responsible.

 

My point is that Corypheus hid things from Calpernia that he knew would upset her and cause her to leave his service. What he hid is anyone's guess, sure, but this does at least indicate that she may have been completely in the dark about the Venatori's atrocities, many of which were not even slightly apparent. Like the Freemen of the Dales, or the attempt to poison Wycome's water supply with red lyrium and blame it on the elves. Or the sale of Sharnia's people to the red templars. Then there are more apparent actions which those on Tevinter's side might not consider atrocities. Like killing a bunch of noble snobs in Orlais and assassinating Celene, who is known to have burned elven slaves to death. Or the fire ship being sent against Denerim, which has openly supported the Inquisition. So an attack on them would be seen as a necessity of war.

 

Tevinter would be more interesting. It would also be a much greater undertaking. BUT, at least they already have Tevinter architecture to work from. It shouldn't be all that difficult. With Nevarra they would have to think up new architecture. Although, I mostly just see Nevarra as being mostly desert and pyramids for some reason. Maybe it would have a sort of Egyptian theme? "The Grand Necropolis" that Cassandra mentions just gives me that Egyptian vibe.

[Ieldra]

Why do you doubt it? One of Corypheus' memory crystals tells us that he kept things from Calpernia. He knew she would not understand his will, but in time she would forgive. If you only think that Corypheus would not hide the rest of his actions from her, then you admit this is only your opinion. While I respect that opinion, I can't say that's how it definately was in the canon.

 

I never said Alexius led ALL of the Venatori, clearly he didn't. But he did lead a group of them, just as Gordian did, or Lucanus did, or Duhaime did. Just because Calpernia led the attack on Haven or a small group that bought up slaves does mean she was involved or responsible for all the things those generals I just named did under Corypheus' instruction.

I think we should not whitewash Calpernia. The story presented her clearly as Corypheus' second-in-command. I think she is clearly a nationalist, and with Tevinter having been in a state of cold war with most of southern Thedas for centuries, it's rather likely she doesn't care much about the southerners. Whether she knew about everything the Venatori did or not, much of it would be considered fair game from her point of view, especially since the Venatori were already at war. In order to work competently in her role, Corypheus would keep her in the dark only about his plans for her, not about anything else. It's possible there are some things she didn't want to know, though. 

 

I would also like to mention that it's generally not simple to evaluate the merits and flaws of people in positions of power. The nature of politics, especially in times of conflict, is such that you can rarely achieve something significant without treading on someone's toes in a way that could be considered at least unfair. Politics, as a German politician said just last week, means thinking from the end. Also, flaws someone might have do not count against any merits they might have, they're simply different character traits. I could name a few figures in history who were responsible for great cultural advances, but also for massacres, assassinations etc.., and some of the most revered figures in history had some rather unpleasant traits which nobody cared about at the time. 

 

Calpernia is responsible for some pretty bad stuff, but she's also a person who could pull Tevinter out of its ossified state in an overall good way. Her desire to free the slaves and let them achieve their potential goes hand in hand with her desire for a resurgent Imperium, which would undoubtedly not happen without more bloodshed. You might consider the end worth the means or not, but regardless of that both the good and the bad exist. Personally, I am not opposed to the idea of empire because small, ethnically uniform nation states tend to be parochial. Orlais and Tevinter are both empires with all the good and the bad usually associated with the term. I just happen to prefer one with a positive regard for magic.

[Master Warder Z_]

Tevinter should do Thedas a favor and sink into the sea.

And preferably take Par Vollen with it.

[Uccio]

Calpernia contradicts herself. She can´t have the Imperium of the old and in the same time free the slaves. That would not be Tevinter anymore. Since Tevinter Imperium was a slave country at the height of it´s power. Not forgetting blood magic and blood rituals.

[Ieldra]

Calpernia contradicts herself. She can´t have the Imperium of the old and in the same time free the slaves. That would not be Tevinter anymore. Since Tevinter Imperium was a slave country at the height of it´s power. Not forgetting blood magic and blood rituals.

She wants Tevinter to be as powerful as it was at the height of its power. She also wants the slaves to be freed. That's not a contradiction. You erroneously presuppose that slavery must be a defining part of every possible political entity encompassing the territory, name and some basic cultural precepts of the old Imperium. History shows us that nations can change in things like this without losing their identity. 

[Uccio]

Obviously, Rome might still be Rome without slavery, to a point. But Tevinter Imperium without slavery and blood sacrifice is like Third Reich without oppression of the jews and other minorities. A defining factor, not necessarily the only one but still a major issue. Tevinter Imperium started it´s golden age and expansion over Thedas especially because of those things.

[Master Warder Z_]

Oi! Leave the dead were they lay.

You could just have easily used North Korea

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Oi! Leave the dead were they lay.

You could just have easily used North Korea

Are you seriously defending them???

[raging_monkey]

Are you seriously defending them???

don't ask uthe

[Master Warder Z_]

Are you seriously defending them???

No?

I say grant fallen soldiers respect.

From Biafra to Rhodesia to Hapsburg to any number of battlefields, governments and causes history forgot because people got stupid and lazy :/ people have died in countless number for millions of causes.

Its disrespectful to use them as a petty allegory to amuse folk who know jack **** of anything they went through.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Looks like someone is mad that Hitler didn't win WW2

[Master Warder Z_]

Didn't we have this conversation? Leave the dead were they lay.

Its sad when the USSR under Stalin has more respect then the west in modern times I'll say that.

Its outright disgusting truth be told.

[raging_monkey]

Who respects Stalin

[Master Warder Z_]

Who respects Stalin

Far too many

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

No?

I say grant fallen soldiers respect.

From Biafra to Rhodesia to Hapsburg to any number of battlefields, governments and causes history forgot because people got stupid and lazy :/ people have died in countless number for millions of causes.

Its disrespectful to use them as a petty allegory to amuse folk who know jack **** of anything they went through.

**** you. The nazis were responsible for the attempted genocide of countless of innocent people based on an idiotic sense of superiority and prejudice. My own grandparents were victims of their filthy genocide and to see someone defend their killers is just disgusting

No nazi deserves respect. I suspect you wouldn't be so eager to defend them if you lost a family member to them.

I hope each and every nazi suffered a slow and agonizing death. Your defense is just plain sick.

[Master Warder Z_]

**** you.

I'm not unused to such vulgarity from those who have never picked up a rifle and fought.

Civilians can't understand.

Its alright, I hold no ill will against you, especially in this generation.

[The Baconer]

Obviously, Rome might still be Rome without slavery, to a point. But Tevinter Imperium without slavery and blood sacrifice is like Third Reich without oppression of the jews and other minorities.

 

I mean...

 

 

I feel like that wouldn't be the worst thing. Also, confirmed lock.

[Master Warder Z_]

I mean...


I feel like that wouldn't be the worst thing.

But think of the criminal market, Tevinter is the primary buyer of slaves in Thedas.

Their withdraw would kill the market.

[Dai Grepher]

I think we should not whitewash Calpernia. The story presented her clearly as Corypheus' second-in-command. I think she is clearly a nationalist, and with Tevinter having been in a state of cold war with most of southern Thedas for centuries, it's rather likely she doesn't care much about the southerners. Whether she knew about everything the Venatori did or not, much of it would be considered fair game from her point of view, especially since the Venatori were already at war. In order to work competently in her role, Corypheus would keep her in the dark only about his plans for her, not about anything else. It's possible there are some things she didn't want to know, though. 

 

I would also like to mention that it's generally not simple to evaluate the merits and flaws of people in positions of power. The nature of politics, especially in times of conflict, is such that you can rarely achieve something significant without treading on someone's toes in a way that could be considered at least unfair. Politics, as a German politician said just last week, means thinking from the end. Also, flaws someone might have do not count against any merits they might have, they're simply different character traits. I could name a few figures in history who were responsible for great cultural advances, but also for massacres, assassinations etc.., and some of the most revered figures in history had some rather unpleasant traits which nobody cared about at the time. 

 

Calpernia is responsible for some pretty bad stuff, but she's also a person who could pull Tevinter out of its ossified state in an overall good way. Her desire to free the slaves and let them achieve their potential goes hand in hand with her desire for a resurgent Imperium, which would undoubtedly not happen without more bloodshed. You might consider the end worth the means or not, but regardless of that both the good and the bad exist. Personally, I am not opposed to the idea of empire because small, ethnically uniform nation states tend to be parochial. Orlais and Tevinter are both empires with all the good and the bad usually associated with the term. I just happen to prefer one with a positive regard for magic.

 

I won't whitewash her. I do want true information about her. After all, I don't want to be a fan of a character who doesn't actually exist in the canon. But I'm saying we should not attribute bad things to her that she may have had nothing to do with.

 

Calpernia was not Cory's second in command. She was a lieutenant, and she led a specific faction of Venatori in a few specific operations. She was basically what one of the advisors is to the Inquisitor, except unlike them, Cory's advisors don't know everything that goes on at his Chore Table. He sent Calpernia on missions that she was suited for and kept her in the dark about things that she would oppose. I mean, if we're going to say Calpernia knew about everything, then does that include what Cory did to Erastenes? Because obviously she had no idea about that. So either she knew everything, or she was kept in the dark about certain things. Clearly she was kept in the dark about certain things. In which case, the question of what she knew or didn't know is a much needed one in determining Calpernia's character.

 

She might see those bad things as fair game, or she might not. Unless we can confirm it, this is all just speculation.

 

What bad stuff is she responsible for? Killing those who are her enemies in war? Okay, but the same goes for a lot of people then. Alexius is one of the most evil people in the game, but you can make him an agent. Same with Florienne. What they did was far worse than what we know Calpernia did.

 

Yes, seeing Tevinter reborn might require bloodshed, but whose blood? Those protecting the current system of corruption and oligarchical power? Calpernia would have no problem with that, and neither would most people in Thedas.

[Dai Grepher]

Calpernia contradicts herself. She can´t have the Imperium of the old and in the same time free the slaves. That would not be Tevinter anymore. Since Tevinter Imperium was a slave country at the height of it´s power. Not forgetting blood magic and blood rituals.

 

She wants the glory of old, not the atrocities of old. No one in the Imperium wants blood magic and blood rituals to be used in public because of the damage it does to the country's reputation. Same with the old gods. No one wants to return to those practices. Just the state the country was in during that era.
 

[Caddius]

I'm not unused to such vulgarity from those who have never picked up a rifle and fought.

Civilians can't understand.

Its alright, I hold no ill will against you, especially in this generation.

Yeah, this thread is probably going to die. 

Regardless, I saw no ill will directed to the Wehrmacht. No discussion of them, in fact. Just the infamous crimes of the Nazi government, and relating it to how intrinsic slavery and blood magic was to Tevinter at its height. Which is a fair enough comparison. Why would using North Korea as an example be any better or worse? Because the government is still intact, and can step into this thread to defend themselves?

Regardless, this discussion is probably meant for PM or an entirely different thread than one discussing a woman that can really only be connected to the one unpopular group, the Venatori.

Grepher, my point about him claiming to be Tevinter was that his being in charge of the southern mages was part of that fiction. Get the mages, keep them under control, get the Herald if you can. But I get your point.

And Calpernia's talk of Corypheus being all lies is about him making her powerful and free as the Vessel. She doesn't rail against him lying about the general aims of the Venatori, just how she's harmed by his means.

[Caddius]

She wants the glory of old, not the atrocities of old. No one in the Imperium wants blood magic and blood rituals to be used in public because of the damage it does to the country's reputation. Same with the old gods. No one wants to return to those practices. Just the state the country was in during that era.
 

In her short story, she criticizes how slaves are sacrificed for the benefit of their masters, rather than working great spells and rituals to better the Imperium like it was in the height of Tevinter dominance. That suggests to me that she's fine with it, so long as it's for the greater good. But again, we don't have too much information.

But I'm willing to bet that a lot of Venatori want to return to that very state. They're not at all shy about blood sacrifice. And they worship Corypheus instead of the Old Gods, though it seems that Calpernia doesn't. I'm curious if she doesn't follow any religion, or if she's Black Andrastian, or an Old God Worshiper.