I saw no ill will directed to the Wehrmacht. No discussion of them, in fact
Obviously, Rome might still be Rome without slavery, to a point. But Tevinter Imperium without slavery and blood sacrifice is like Third Reich without oppression of the jews and other minorities. A defining factor, not necessarily the only one but still a major issue. Tevinter Imperium started it´s golden age and expansion over Thedas especially because of those things.
I would question the effect abolition would have on Tevinter's national identity, but so what if it did? It would just be a new and arguably better Tevinter, just like how Kirkwall, the City of Chains, is now better than what it was back when it held almost a millions slaves.
I would question the effect abolition would have on Tevinter's national identity, but so what if it did? It would just be a new and arguably better Tevinter, just like how Kirkwall, the City of Chains, is now better than what it was back when it held almost a millions slaves.
Ancient Tevinter seemed to run on overrunning their neighbors, enslaving them, and using them as workers and magical fuel. Abolition, even in modern Tevinter, would have huge ramifications if it could stick. It would be interesting. *shrug*
But the Venatori specifically are a call-back to the Ancient Tevinter way of doing things.
In her short story, she criticizes how slaves are sacrificed for the benefit of their masters, rather than working great spells and rituals to better the Imperium like it was in the height of Tevinter dominance. That suggests to me that she's fine with it, so long as it's for the greater good. But again, we don't have too much information.
But I'm willing to bet that a lot of Venatori want to return to that very state. They're not at all shy about blood sacrifice. And they worship Corypheus instead of the Old Gods, though it seems that Calpernia doesn't. I'm curious if she doesn't follow any religion, or if she's Black Andrastian, or an Old God Worshiper.
I didn't take it as her WANTING slaves to be sacrificed to power great spells, I think it was just a point about how the Tevinter of old at least respected the life that was taken, whereas now it does not. And even if she meant it as an endorsement of the practice, I think that thought process could originate more from a stance of patriotism than anything else. She might see it as a slave's sacrifice for a great advancement for the rest of society being synonymous with a soldier's sacrifice on the battlefield to preserve the nation.
And even if she does think slave lives are expendable so long as the spell is worth it, well, that's wrong-headed, but it does at least make her a more complex character. One worthy of being revisited in a future installment.
I think, in my personal opinion, that Calpernia believes that her current world is the only world that she and others will ever know. Meaning, after Thedas, you die, you go to the Fade, and then you basically dissolve into the ether. That energy pool then spawns new spirits, but your consciousness is destroyed and you'll never know it or anything else ever again. Therefore, the only thing that endures is that which is in the real world. And I think that's why Calpernia wants to see Tevinter reborn. She believes that Tevinter is a great idea that many lives pour their own energy into and that everything that they are survives through it. That's why she wants to see it become great again, and it would explain the stance of blood sacrifice being justified if it betters Tevinter, if that is indeed a stance she subscribes to.
Ancient Tevinter seemed to run on overrunning their neighbors, enslaving them, and using them as workers and magical fuel. Abolition, even in modern Tevinter, would have huge ramifications if it could stick. It would be interesting. *shrug*
But the Venatori specifically are a call-back to the Ancient Tevinter way of doing things.
Depends how it's implemented. If all those who favor slavery are destroyed or pacified, then it could work. Slaves would just become employees and they would have to be paid.
Two real world examples:
Britain abolished slavery in its colonies and saw an increase in productivity and wealth.
The United States of America abolished slavery in a somewhat sloppy way. First, a compromise in order to keep the country united. Second, duality among north and south where people were free in the north but bound in the south. This negatively affected the markets. Third, a civil war, which was always inevitable.
Tevinter could go either way. What the U.S. had going against it was that slavery was only practiced against people that slavers believed inferior based on skin color. Tevinter's prejudice is not based on skin color, but they do have that whole "strongest line" thing going on, and they do consider slaves to be of inferior bloodlines. So even if slavery is abolished, that condescending attitude may still persist, or the attitude might block abolition. On the other hand, the reformers might see it as an opportunity to dispel those notions by giving the "inferior blooded" people a chance to prove their worth, and this could lead to more prosperity, which even the prejudiced magisters would eventually go along with out of self-interest.
I mean...
I feel like that wouldn't be the worst thing. Also, confirmed lock.
Was not aiming to lock this thread. My point was just what Caddius said. For most of the serie we have been told how "evil" the Imperium is, with everything tied to blood magic/sacrifices and slavery. Most of the people representing Tevinter have been mustache twirling villains, short of laughing "muhaha!" when doing evil things.
The only "good" tevinter so far has been Dorian, a reformist. Though he did kind of accept slavery, I will give him that.
In her short story, she criticizes how slaves are sacrificed for the benefit of their masters, rather than working great spells and rituals to better the Imperium like it was in the height of Tevinter dominance. That suggests to me that she's fine with it, so long as it's for the greater good. But again, we don't have too much information.
But I'm willing to bet that a lot of Venatori want to return to that very state. They're not at all shy about blood sacrifice. And they worship Corypheus instead of the Old Gods, though it seems that Calpernia doesn't. I'm curious if she doesn't follow any religion, or if she's Black Andrastian, or an Old God Worshiper.
That is why I don´t think Calpernia has any kind of hold of the Venatori. They were a group of extremists connected to Corypheus and his plans. Not Calpernia and her dreams. In the after match of the death of Corypheus I am pretty sure the remaining Venatori had no desire to follow her nor to adhere her wishes given the fact that her goals are practically opposite from what C wanted to do.
She clearly acknowledges slaves as people whose lives and desires deserve consideration, so I doubt she'd be fine with their sacrifice as a rule. Possibly she sees a moral obligation for non-mages to offer themselves as a sacrifice in times of war, but that's rather different from just taking them and doing it.In her short story, she criticizes how slaves are sacrificed for the benefit of their masters, rather than working great spells and rituals to better the Imperium like it was in the height of Tevinter dominance. That suggests to me that she's fine with it, so long as it's for the greater good. But again, we don't have too much information.
She pays her respects to the Ferryman, which is a name given to the first archon. So there is a spiritual aspect to her, and this might qualify as ancestor-worship. I don't think she's particularly religious though, apart from enacting some simple everyday rituals like this.But I'm willing to bet that a lot of Venatori want to return to that very state. They're not at all shy about blood sacrifice. And they worship Corypheus instead of the Old Gods, though it seems that Calpernia doesn't. I'm curious if she doesn't follow any religion, or if she's Black Andrastian, or an Old God Worshiper.
There is also Maevaris. Also, told by who? Characters of southern Thedas, most of the time, who are bound to have a skewed perspective. And of course the people from Tevinter you're most likely to meet outside of the Imperium are slavers and slave hunters, that would skew the picture more.For most of the serie we have been told how "evil" the Imperium is, with everything tied to blood magic/sacrifices and slavery. Most of the people representing Tevinter have been mustache twirling villains, short of laughing "muhaha!" when doing evil things.
The only "good" tevinter so far has been Dorian, a reformist. Though he did kind of accept slavery, I will give him that.
Maevaris is a character from books whom we have not seen. Just some war table issues. The games so far have told us how evil Tevinter is. True, we have only seen people working outside the Imperium but still.
I actually agree with you on Tevinter to a point. It is a country like any other in Thedas, with it´s own peculiarities. Ordinary people most likely do not have a clue what happens in the upper circles of the country but like most people in the medieval times, they have little to say about it either. Their approval or refusal is irrelevant. Take Orlais for instance, their chevaliers have rape and murder rights quite openly, yet the common man has little to say about it. Why would Tevinter be any different?
It's not - the magisters can effectively get away with almost anything either. Life as an elf in Orlais or life as a slave in Tevinter, it appears rather similar. The power games of Orlais' nobility and of the magisters? Rather similar, too, including that a lot of innocents get caught up in them and end up dead. That's the point, however. In spite of that, people don't talk about Orlais as if it were the embodiment of evil that needs to sink into the ocean.I actually agree with you on Tevinter to a point. It is a country like any other in Thedas, with it´s own peculiarities. Ordinary people most likely do not have a clue what happens in the upper circles of the country but like most people in the medieval times, they have little to say about it either. Their approval or refusal is irrelevant. Take Orlais for instance, their chevaliers have rape and murder rights quite openly, yet the common man has little to say about it. Why would Tevinter be any different?
Well i never heard about orlais causing destruction of the world but i heard about tevinter doing that , also i never heard about orlais trying brainwash and mind control entire world into blind obedience but also heard about tevinter trying to do that. 
There is also open and legal slavery something that is allowed only in tevinter , also even compared to orlesian nobility tevinter nobles are on entire whole new level of petty dic**** ,because there was no killing children to impress another nobles at orlesian party from what i recall.
And no situation of elves and slaves isn't the same because if i recall elves aren't someone's property and when sometimes they are badly treated they are free to leave from what i know ,at least in ferelden.
That is why I don´t think Calpernia has any kind of hold of the Venatori. They were a group of extremists connected to Corypheus and his plans. Not Calpernia and her dreams. In the after match of the death of Corypheus I am pretty sure the remaining Venatori had no desire to follow her nor to adhere her wishes given the fact that her goals are practically opposite from what C wanted to do.
Mages like Erimond wouldn't follow her.
The normals in the Venatori might as they do at the end of the short story.
Mages like Erimond wouldn't follow her.
The normals in the Venatori might as they do at the end of the short story.
Possibly but I'd strongly suspect that the Venatori are a written off interest by their backers in the Imperium by the conclusion of DAI, not to mention all but destroyed.
Its a dead cult.
Possibly but I'd strongly suspect that the Venatori are a written off interest by their backers in the Imperium by the conclusion of DAI, not to mention all but destroyed.
Its a dead cult.
If a big part of your schtick is that you have a living god to command you, and that living god gets blown into smithereens by some casteless dwarf or what-have you, after almost your entire cult has been wiped out, then I don't see many of the survivors trying to keep things going. Witness Voldemort being blown up by a baby. 
Another Tevinter throw-back cult will probably form, but they'll avoid the tainted brand-name of Venatori.
Mages like Erimond wouldn't follow her.
The normals in the Venatori might as they do at the end of the short story.
Perhaps other Incaensor might.
Also, goddamn Tevinter for using a term that is directly analogous to Saarebas. 1/10.
A clarification on some of the questions debated in the thread, taken from WoT2:
"Her reading had given her an appreciation for Tevinter's past triumphs and a burning frustration with the ruling nobility's indifference to their homeland's slow decay".
"She saw these Venatori as the key to saving Tevinter, a group dedicated to forging a great future for the Imperium and humanity as a whole."
"Her dreams of revitalizing Tevinter included uplifting the enslaved as true citizens of the Imperium. Calpernia believed in the worth of the people unseen by the powerful, and well remembered her own longing for dignity."
"It is a testament to Calpernia's strength of vision that she remained the Venatori's leader, largely unquestioned and second only to Corypheus, until the end".
"The last of the Venatori are scattered to the winds, and those few who can be found either do not know or are intent on preserving their former leader's secrets."
(Source: World of Thedas Vol 2, 249)
With the standard caveat that WoT's content is considered in-world information, I will take these statements as canonical.
World of Thedas is not a credible source of information. Numerous inconsistences have already been pointed out elsewhere, some of which were even corrected by BioWare.
If there is no inconsistency between the different sources - and I see none in the information about Calpernia - I see no reason to not take it at face value.World of Thedas is not a credible source of information. Numerous inconsistences have already been pointed out elsewhere, some of which were even corrected by BioWare.
If there is no inconsistency between the different sources - and I see none in the information about Calpernia - I see no reason to not take it at face value.
The games have contradicted each other before, so yeah, if there's no errors like that in the World of Thedas entries, then I see it as being canon. (The ones with mistakes are 'defiled canon'. 
)
I can't like Calpernia.
I can appreciate her as a character, I can even appreciate her struggle but she shows no intention of fixing what is truly wrong about Tevinter, has plans for expansion and has caused much suffering in the South. I always fight her.
I can appreciate her as a character, I can even appreciate her struggle but she shows no intention of fixing what is truly wrong about Tevinter, has plans for expansion [...]
Yet, that never did stop people from pitching a tent for Gaspard.
... Speak of the devil.
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