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[Milan92]

When has that stop Bioware?

 

Calpernia for Companion/LI!

 

She and my future Tevinter mage shall rule the Imperium!

[Ieldra]

It is not interpretation. The note in the Hissing Wastes if you sided with the Templars says that they finished brainwashing the mages, and Leliana's option during the Investigate Redcliffe Castle mission shows the Venatori performing a brain-washing ritual on the remaining mages. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that the mages are brainwashed if you side with the templars? Because it doesn't support your viewpoint? By that logic, all red templars are perfectly aware of what the doing and are willingly aiding a darkspawn magister conquer thedas.

Well, if the note says that (but see the edit below) then that's the in-game evidence I was looking for. I do not, as much as would like to, recall the contents of every note I find, and my pro-Templar playthrough is a few weeks old and doesn't have a complete Codex. I concede the point.

 

As for how that reflects on Calpernia - well, as the leader of the Venatori she is of course responsible, and since I don't think Corypheus cares about such details, she bears a leader's responsibility even if she didn't specifically order it. Also, her morality may not be universalist, so that she cares less about the southern mages who come, after all, from the territory of an ancient enemy of the Imperium. If you want to condemn her for that, you can. You can refuse to let her go, and justifiedly so. I could bring a whole slew of arguments against that but I'll refrain. I don't want this thread to turn into *yet another* debate about a character's morality - I don't have words to express how sick I am of those - so....yeah, judge her if you want. I'll just acknowledge that a character doesn't need to be perfect in order to make me like her. 

 

Edit:

Can you please tell me which note exactly says that? I checked my list of Codex Entries and found that I have all of those from the Hissing Wastes in my templar playthrough, yet none of them mentions this. I may have missed one since I'm a hurry - so: which one is it?

 

Also, here is Leliana's report from the "Investigate Redcliffe Castle" WT operation (Josephine's has even less information):

 

"Thanks to Sister Leliana’s information, we were able to enter Redcliffle Castle with none the wiser. While most of the main force had long since departed, a small group of Tevinter mages was still present. They were in the middle of some sort of ritual when we arrived. We interrupted it and captured one of the mages alive. The rest fought to the death. Hopefully Sister Leliana can get useful information from the survivor about what happened at Redcliffe Castle."

 

There is no mention what this ritual was about. Apparently none of the southerns mages were even present.

 

You know what? This "brainwashed" thing increasingly appears like one of those things "everyone knows" but which is surprisingly hard to find hard evidence for. The wiki uses the term so often in this context that you'd think the evidence must be overwhelming. And yet, it is not.

[Ieldra]

You do realize Calpernia is most likely dead right? She says that she'll confront Corypheus and IF she lives, she'll go back to Tevinter. Does Corypheus really seem like the forgiving type for betrayal?

Don't you know how often "most likely dead" has resolved into "alive" in fiction? Sure, Bioware can declare her dead. The thing is, they can declare her alive with equal ease. Did she even reach Corypheus to confront him before we killed him?

[Boost32]

No one can tell you the codex because it dont exist, I already read all my codex, searched on the Wikipédia, asked about it and never saw it.
And I thought you sided with the mages, at least its what is written in your diary.

[rx00]

She was interesting, but I kind of felt they made her too nice and reasonable for someone allied with Corypheus. Letting her go was too easy a decision.

 

Well, "reasonable" is probably the reason. Remember how Dorian, a reforming Tevinter mage/noble, talked about slavery in his country? It's just basic, so basic a man like him wouldn't even notice it might be wrong or morally debatable, and as we know, he already had a list about "how my country can be better". When Calpernia said she wants to remove slavery from Teveinter, it's much like we said we want to remove banknote or private property system from modern day society. If she wants to succeed, if she wants to witness the final outcome, then she needs a miracle, so she is willing to do anything, because she knew (or we can say, she believed) if they succeed, a God will be at her side.

[leadintea]

LOL. I don't see Dorian as a weakling, but yes, I agree that Calpernia would likely be a far more competent leader, if her appearance in DAI is any indication. It would need considerable change to place her there, though, because she's not an Altus and can't become a member of the magisterium according to existing rules. Likely, something drastic would need to change before she even gets there, to say nothing of the changes she might want to enact. In any case, getting enough support for her ideas is likely to be the far greater challenge, and there Dorian might be rather useful. I can see them co-operating eventually.

 

Dorian had potential to be an Archon but because he didn't want to play ball and get married to a woman, he pretty much lost any political power he might have had in Tevinter; doubly so if he's in a relationship with the Inquisitor or Iron Bull. For all his bitching about wanting to change Tevinter, Dorian was in the best position amongst his peers to bring about change yet tosses it away because of his "ideals".  If you look to Anora, she would reluctantly marry the half-brother to her recently deceased husband as well as the murderer of her father in order to bring stability to her nation because she actually cares for her country and would do anything for it even if it impedes on her happiness. Dorian just goes, "Girls! Icky!" and flees from country (though to be fair, there is the whole blood magic thing with his dad), turning to a scandalous organization (at the time) and relying on them to do his dirty work for him (his WT missions, In Hushed Whispers), as much as he likes to claim otherwise.

 

As "likable" and "charismatic" as he is, Dorian is selfish, an idiot, a weakling, and a coward, and I absolutely will never make him an Archon or anyone of importance in Tevinter if we ever get the chance to in a future installment. If Dorian were competent and patient, he could have married the bride chosen for him, used his political power to become Archon, and changed things little by little as he saw fit so that no one else would've ended up in the same situation as he did as well as had the chance to change Tevinter for the better. But because he cared only about himself, he abandoned everything and everyone he could've saved just for a chance at his own happiness. I'm hoping the devs realize this and don't fall prey to making him a writer's pet like Leliana and making him not only get his cake (being in a loving relationship with the IQ/Iron Bull or being accepted for how he is) but eat it too (being able to save Tevinter with absolutely no repercussions or making him have the least negative things associated with his ideals compared to the other candidates).

 

And while I agree with time running out and reform is needed, the type of reform Calpernia wants to implicate and so impatiently, so rapidly such as the removal of slavery would realistically be far more crippling to Tevinter and its economy that Magister Infighting.  Tbh I'd only support Calpernia if I wanted to advocate Qunari interests as it stands currently.

 

Agree. Tevinter's backbone is made up of the slave trade and if things change too much, Tevinter could fall in the process. Personally, I'm in favor of a middle of the road option where someone wants to bring about change, but does so in small doses so the nation can adapt to it.

 

Also, I apologize for any mistakes or if my thoughts seem a bit incoherent. My laptop is destroyed, so I'm unable to respond as much or as clearly as I'd like to since I have to resort to using my phone/Vita.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Dorian had potential to be an Archon but because he didn't want to play ball and get married to a woman, he pretty much lost any political power he might have had in Tevinter; doubly so if he's in a relationship with the Inquisitor or Iron Bull. For all his bitching about wanting to change Tevinter, Dorian was in the best position amongst his peers to bring about change yet tosses it away because of his "ideals".  If you look to Anora, she would reluctantly marry the half-brother to her recently deceased husband as well as the murderer of her father in order to bring stability to her nation because she actually cares for her country and would do anything for it even if it impedes on her happiness. Dorian just goes, "Girls! Icky!" and flees from country (though to be fair, there is the whole blood magic thing with his dad), turning to a scandalous organization (at the time) and relying on them to do his dirty work for him (his WT missions, In Hushed Whispers), as much as he likes to claim otherwise.

 

As "likable" and "charismatic" as he is, Dorian is selfish, an idiot, a weakling, and a coward, and I absolutely will never make him an Archon or anyone of importance in Tevinter if we ever get the chance to in a future installment. If Dorian were competent and patient, he could have married the bride chosen for him, used his political power to become Archon, and changed things little by little as he saw fit so that no one else would've ended up in the same situation as he did as well as had the chance to change Tevinter for the better. But because he cared only about himself, he abandoned everything and everyone he could've saved just for a chance at his own happiness. I'm hoping the devs realize this and don't fall prey to making him a writer's pet like Leliana and making him not only get his cake (being in a loving relationship with the IQ/Iron Bull or being accepted for how he is) but eat it too (being able to save Tevinter with absolutely no repercussions or making him have the least negative things associated with his ideals compared to the other candidates).

 

 

Agree. Tevinter's backbone is made up of the slave trade and if things change too much, Tevinter could fall in the process. Personally, I'm in favor of a middle of the road option where someone wants to bring about change, but does so in small doses so the nation can adapt to it.

 

Also, I apologize for any mistakes or if my thoughts seem a bit incoherent. My laptop is destroyed, so I'm unable to respond as much or as clearly as I'd like to since I have to resort to using my phone/Vita.

Actually, Anora will refuse to marry the person who killed her father.

[leadintea]

Well, either way she can end up in a political marriage for the sake of Fereldan, which is really my main point with that statement.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Actually, Anora will refuse to marry the person who killed her father.

Yep. Anora does have some standards and isn't willing to sacrifice all of her integrity for politics. What a weakling and a coward.

[leadintea]

Just because you enter a political marriage doesn't mean you're throwing away your integrity. It's not as if Dorian is resorting to blood magic or endangering slave's lives if he marries a woman. And if you can help a lot more people from one selfless act, I think it's much better to take that action most of the time than to selfishly think only of yourself, especially if you keepp going on about wanting to help those people.

[AresKeith]

Just because you enter a political marriage doesn't mean you're throwing away your integrity. It's not as if Dorian is resorting to blood magic or endangering slave's lives if he marries a woman. And if you can help a lot more people from one selfless act, I think it's much better to take that action most of the time than to selfishly think only of yourself, especially if you keepp going on about wanting to help those people.

 

Maybe he doesn't want to marry a woman and that's one of the things he wants to change?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Maybe he doesn't want to marry a woman and that's one of the things he wants to change?

Nope. You have to a complete and utter martyr. You can only change things through self-imposed misery. No happiness allowed.

[leadintea]

You can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs. If he can't make a single sacrifice in order to gain the power needed to save his country or enact his ideals, then he obviously can't get what he wants.

[DuskWanderer]

Yep. Anora does have some standards and isn't willing to sacrifice all of her integrity for politics. What a weakling and a coward.

 

Running a nation is about more than your own personal happiness. You have all the people to worry about, and make their lives better. The needs of the many and all. Dorian, with his ego the size of a lake and twice as undeserved, doesn't understand that. Anora does, which is why she makes an effective leader. I make disagree with leadintea's assessment that Leliana is a writer's pet, she is spot on about Dorian being a poor choice for a leader, and a whiny incorrigible brat to boot.

 

But, back to Calpernia. I'd personally love to see her interactions with Samson. I wonder how the two of them would get along.  

[leadintea]

Ugh, thank you! And it's he, not she.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Running a nation is about more than your own personal happiness. You have all the people to worry about, and make their lives better. The needs of the many and all. Dorian, with his ego the size of a lake and twice as undeserved, doesn't understand that. Anora does, which is why she makes an effective leader. I make disagree with leadintea's assessment that Leliana is a writer's pet, she is spot on about Dorian being a poor choice for a leader, and a whiny incorrigible brat to boot.

 

But, back to Calpernia. I'd personally love to see her interactions with Samson. I wonder how the two of them would get along.  

I'm not arguing that Dorian should be Archon, I would prefer that he not. I also don't remember Dorian claiming that he wants to be either. I was responding to the hyperbolic criticisms of his character.

[CosmicGnosis]

My canon will always be pro-mage, so I feel a bit cheated that I miss out on this apparently great character. This is kind of depressing...

[ComedicSociopathy]

My canon will always be pro-mage, so I feel a bit cheated that I miss out on this apparently great character. This is kind of depressing...

 

You get Samson though, and he's awesome, right? Right...

[CosmicGnosis]

What exactly happens to the leaders when you save their faction? Where does Samson go if you choose the templars? Where is Calpernia when you choose the mages?

[rx00]

What exactly happens to the leaders when you save their faction? Where does Samson go if you choose the templars? Where is Calpernia when you choose the mages?

For Samson, it was mentioned that he "fail to endure as a vessel" during the Dumat's temple quest. Guess he got himself kill for wearing that red-cocaine  armor.

 

As for Calpernia, she won't even be mentioned if you chose mages.

 

 

You get Samson though, and he's awesome, right? Right...

 

I was like "who the hell are you and why everyone seems to know you" when I saw him.

[Ieldra]

No one can tell you the codex because it dont exist, I already read all my codex, searched on the Wikipédia, asked about it and never saw it.
And I thought you sided with the mages, at least its what is written in your diary.

Thank you. Well, it could still be one of those transient notes you can find which don't make it into the Codex. We'll see if anyone comes up with one.

 

As for siding with the mages: you do know it's possible to play this game more than once with different decisions?

[Ieldra]

What exactly happens to the leaders when you save their faction? Where does Samson go if you choose the templars? Where is Calpernia when you choose the mages?

Calpernia is never mentioned in games where you side with the mages. Which means her state is completely undefined.

[Former_Fiend]

I definitely found Calpernia to be one of the more intriguing characters in the game. I definitely preferred her to Samson(didn't hate Samson, though). She is responsible for some pretty terrible things, but being that my hands down favorite DA character is Loghain, that's not exactly a deal breaker for me.

 

I would enjoy seeing her in a future installment, if Bioware decides to keep her alive. I'm not particularly eager to see her become a companion, though. I know levels don't mean anything, story-wise, but I hate seeing powerful characters deleveled so they can fit as party members in the next game. *cough*Anders & Varric*cough*

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Calp0rnia!

[CosmicGnosis]

Considering that Samson can be spared, and Calpernia's status can be ambiguous, I hope that BioWare brings back both characters in the future for potential "redemption" stories. Basically, Corypheus's generals are allowed a chance to repair the damage they caused to Thedas. However, it seems that only Calpernia's fate is unclear; Samson apparently ends up dead in a templar playthrough? Either way, I want Calpernia in my mage-focused storyline!