134 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

The other deities in the franchise seem real enough. I don't see why the Maker should be the exception.

[cronshaw]

This may answer your question

[Lebanese Dude]

The other deities in the franchise seem real enough. I don't see why the Maker should be the exception.

That's cause the deities aren't deities at all

[Anaeme]

This is a very simple matter in my mind.

 

Someone assigned Fen Harel to rebellion and Mythal to justice and motherhood. Someone assigned Elgarnan to the sun. Someone assigned Anduril to the hunt and the forgotten ones to their portfolios. They just did not get those assignments at random

 

 

That Someone is the Maker

[RepHope]

This is a very simple matter in my mind.

Someone assigned Fen Harel to rebellion and Mythal to justice and motherhood. Someone assigned Elgarnan to the sun. Someone assigned Anduril to the hunt and the forgotten ones to their portfolios. They just did not get those assignments at random


That Someone is the Maker

While the Dalish legends are shown to be mostly wrong I've always found the story of the Sun's defeat to be interesting. It's my personal belief since the Sun is used to represent the Maker in the modern day Chantry, that it also represented him in the Dalish legend. I think the Elven Pantheon were originally priests of the Maker but eventually tried to set themselves up as gods. The Earth in the tale, I see as representing the Stone which might exist in the form of Lyrium.

[Rocknife]

I doubt there is a Maker as humans picture it and I doubt Andraste was something so different from either Kieran or Anders. In fact, both Dragon Age II and Dragon Age Inquisition seem like fillers to the original story, which is Flemeth raising an army of powerful dragons and old gods in nutshell. All that happened in DA2 and DAI were merely some answers to questions regarding DA lore and Flemeth's plans. Like, what happened to the ancient Tevinter magisters, what can the elven gods actually be, where are they, what can be blight or what is the source of it and stuff like that.

 

Spoiler

Because in DA2 or DAI, you cannot prevent Mythal from getting what she wants, apparently, not even Fenharel could prevent it. In the epilogue, Solas seems to absorb Mythal's soul but after the ending, a man in Val Royeaux sees a woman in his dreams, claiming that she was Mythal. Humans see Fade in their dreams so the soul Flemeth was transferring through the Eluvian was probably Mythal's soul and apparently it went to the Fade. Solas either absorbed the soul of the Urthemiel or Flemeth's own soul. The only one who could actually spoil all the plans of Flemeth was The Hero of Ferelden. Helping Morrigan learn about a part of Flemeth's plans and taking her precious daughter away from her, taking her long wanted Old God Soul from her and even killing her. Until and after the Hero of Ferelden, Mythal pulled the strings of everything, everyone was dancing to her tune as she says. She was the one who gave the history a few small pushes as she said, helping Hawke and causing Cory to be awakened and then using Cory to take the orb from Fenharel (She was probably expecting if the Wolf becomes powerful, he'd stop/absorb/kill her). I think she was also the one who told the location of the Temple of Mythal to Corypheus. Either hoping to obtain boh the orb and Cory as a puppet or attracting Morrigan's attention to the place, knowing she couldn't resist drinking from the well. As an outcome, Mythal either has Flemeth's daughter or the anchor, which she could use as a portable eluvian, or to enable her army of dragons to walk/fly the Void in flesh. And about Hawke, she gives the amulet to him and asks him to bring it to a dalish clan. I can't remember DA2 well since it has been a while the last time I played it and I only finished it once (Even though I played Inquisition once as well it is much more recent) but didn't Flemeth said something like "if I know my Morrigan, she probably did it?" after being revived? So she thought it was possible for the Warden to reveal the truth about her, or even defeat her and as a precaution, gave the amulet to Hawke. So DA2 and DAI were just lore-friendly games that gave us informations and hints about Flemeth, spirits, fade, tevinter magisters and Elvenhen/Arlathan. Technically fillers. I expect DA4 to be a game where we could actually decide the fate of the world thus a powerful and experienced protagonist wouldn't be unexpected. Like the warden commander, since even only in Awakening, he learns about the Architect and his researches regarding the power of blight.

(In spoiler because this part isn't directly related to the Maker)

 

Firstly, why would Mythal want an army of dragons? Why not an army of spirits/demons? Can the reason be what Avernus said ? Demons taught mortals about blood magic, they know it too well but demons are unfamiliar with the power of the taint, he said. Maybe what Mythal seeks to destroy uses the power of blight so an army of demons would be useless against it. It is said Maker brought blight to the world so this "Maker" can be Mythal's target and thus the one who betrayed Mythal. If Dread Wolf wasn't the one who betrayed Mythal (Remember what Solas said in Temple of Mythal and remember how Flemeth called Solas "old friend"), then it must be another member of the Elven Pantheon. But who could betray Mythal other than Dread Wolf? Maybe, just like in Flemeth's case, her partner? Elgarnan? I believe so. In Andraste's battles against Tevinter Imperium, Maker made the sun shine brighter than ever and made it rain fire upon Tevinter armies, there can be surely a connection to Elgarnan, who is said to be the eldest of sun. Perhaps Dread Wolf attacked him and Golden City with an army of demons thinking they knew blood magic so well that they could counter Elgarnan's spells but Elgarnan used a power even unfamiliar for demons of the fade.

 

Or, I remember in Andruil's codex it is written that Andruil was bored of hunting morals so she wanted to hunt the Forgotten Ones. To hunt them, Andruil had to go to the Void, the realm they exist in but every time Andruil went there she became more and more insane. In the end, she made weapons and armor equipments made of the Void. Eventually she turned against her fellow creators and then her knowledge of how to find the void was taken by Mythal. This "Void" may be the source of blight and red lyrium. Mythal might have began the blight. This was the first thing came to my mind but why would she spread the blight without a reason, or why would she so full of vengeance something caused by blight that she started herself? Maybe someone else took this knowledge and thus the power from her and murdered her to do so? Then again, it is said that Maker brought blight to the world as a punishment so Mythal wants to raise an army to kill the Maker to avenge her death. Then emerges another question, why would Elgarnan want this power of blight? Although I think Elgarnan may be the Maker, I also think he might be the Maker's son. It is said Elgarnan killed his father, maybe Elgarnan wanted the power of blight to usurp his throne? So my guess is, the Maker could be either Elgarnan or his father who was killed by Elgarnan. Either ways, I think it was Elgarnan who unleashed the power of blight and thus blackening the Golden City.

 

I think Flemeth is nothing other than a much smarter Anders on steroids. She took a spirit of the Fade into her body willingly so she didn't become an abomination, just like Anders. But why was Mythal so powerful that she once was worshipped as a goddess? Or why does she even have a name? I think Mythal (Or the names of other gods from Elven Pantheon) was the name of an Elven slavers who lived in  Arlathan. To gain power, they made deals with spirits, they would give them an opportunity to see the world with their eyes (strangely, spirits/demons of the fade are very interested by this idea all the time, this is the reason they try to posses mages and turn them into abominations) and in return, they would gain greater powers. Those spirits taught these slavers blood magic. Remember the Tevinter Slaver from the Elven Alienage in Origins. They were collecting slaves and using their life energies to make themselves more powerful (if you defeat the slaver and let him sacrifice slaves for you, you gain +constitution). Vallaslins were slave marks. Those slavers marked shared the people among themselves and marked them and sacrifice them to gain greater powers. Maybe thousands of elves were sacrificed to make them strong, this may be how they achieved immortality.

 

Another interesting point is, Mythal was known as the Goddes of Justice. People would pray her name for justice. But after being betrayed, she suddenly became full of Vengeance. Just like Anders and Justice. When Justice possessed a dead Warden's body (Kristoff) he was perverted by his memories and demand vengeance for him. And then the things with Anders. And, in DAI, during one of Solas' personal quests, a spirit friend of him was bound by some mages. He said that it was a spirit of wisdom but when we got there we saw a pride demon. Solas explained that when the spirit was forced out of his original purpose, it became a pride demon. So Spirits of Wisdom turn into Pride Demons, just like Spirits of Justice turn into Vengeance Demons. And there's the name Fenharel chose for him, "Solas", means "Pride" in Elven language. I think Elven Gods were obviously spirits/demons. The strange thing is, Elgarnan is known as The God Of Vengeance, while even Mythal and Fenharel known as The God Of Vengeance. He must have become a demon-like thing before all other "Elven gods". Another strange thing is, The Forgotten Ones were in the Void before Mythal was murdered, we know this because went to the Void to hunt them. This could also be probable: Perhaps Elgarnan trapped them into the void and gained the power of the void, the blight while doing so and went insane, became demon. This would explain why he was called the God of Vengeance while Mythal was associated with justice. After learning that Mythal took the knowledge of how to reach to the Void from Andruil, Elgarnan felt challenged and killed her. If there is any resemblance between the stories of Mythal and Flemeth (Mythal chose Flemeth because she thought Flemeth knew the heart of the man), Fenharel, Mythal's secret lover, to avenge his lover, raised an army of demons and attacked Elgarnan. To defeat Fenharel's army, Elgarnan used the power of the blight to defeat the army of demons since this power is unfamiliar to demons. Then the blight spreads to the world and destroys Arlathan, defiles their magic (lyrium becomes blighted, red lyrim) and destroys Elven civilization. I bet slavery began in Tevinter after learning about Elven blood magic and slave sacrifice rituals.

 

Mythal being a spirit/demon could also explain how Flemeth knew about the dark ritual. It is technically blood magic and as Avernus said demons know blood magic too well.

 

Long story short, either Elgarnan or his father is what people call the Maker, in my opinion. Since he is said to be the eldest of sun and sun is the symbol of the chantry and the Maker, it is more likely that Elgarnan's father is the Maker, in my opinion.

[Sifr]

I'm fine if we never know if the Maker exists one way or the other, as finding out there is an absolute deity responsible for everything, and not just some kind powerful mage or spirit like the Elven Gods seem to be, would detract something from the setting?

 

Personally, I'm operating under the assumption that the "Maker" is currently waiting for Captain Kirk to show up and ask him why he needs a Starship?

 

[In Exile]

221B Baker Street. It's a long story.

[Captmorgan72]

That's cause the deities aren't deities at all

Bingo. Deities are only deities if they have people worshiping them. Solas is just a powerful mage, nothing more, just like the rest of the "elven gods." 

[Unpleasant Implications]

Elbow deep in... "Circumstances".

[DanteYoda]

Sandal is the Maker...

 

Enchantment!

[Urzon]

We will finally see the face of the Maker at the end of DA5, and it will bear a striking resemblance (in that it's modeled after and voiced by) Stan Lee. After all the credits role, we find out that Disney/Marvel bought out all the rights to the franchise to make it apart of the Marvel Universe, and Dragon Age: The Movie is slated to hit the theaters in 2024!

[RobRam10]

The Maker is here on the real world.

We know him by another name

Spoiler

[The Mad King]

He's in the White City

 

[racism intensifies]

[Antergaton]

David Gaider?

[Ieldra]

It might be an obviously answered question, but where IS the Maker? Cory says the seat is empty.
Is he lying? Or no?

The obvious conclusion: the Maker doesn't exist. At least that's the conclusion anyone without religious preconceptions would draw. You may say it's preliminary, but then all our knowledge is preliminary and we still speak of knowledge rather than hypotheses. 

 

Faith is all well and good, but if there is no actual reason to believe except "It makes me comfortable" then it says nothing at all about the world, only about you. I am firmly in Aveline's camp in this.

[Antergaton]

The obvious conclusion: the Maker doesn't exist. At least that's the conclusion anyone without religious preconceptions would draw. You may say it's preliminary, but then all our knowledge is preliminary and we still speak of knowledge rather than hypotheses. 

 

Faith is all well and good, but if there is no actual reason to believe except "It makes me comfortable" then it says nothing at all about the world, only about you. I am firmly in Aveline's camp in this.

 

You'd think, I am not a believer in the Alighty in the real world. Yet, this fictional world has too many unexplained things and fantastical things existing to deny the existence of a spiritual overseer, so to speak. People seem happy to claim that Solas is that or that and the Old Gods are such a thing with little evidence of anything but when it comes to The Maker they deny it without hesitation. We have more evidence here that The Maker exists in this world.

[Majestic Jazz]

Where is God?

[Kroepoek]

We have more evidence here that The Maker exists in this world.

 

Such as? A madwoman having a vision?

[Antergaton]

Such as? A madwoman having a vision?

 

Remarkably accurate visions. Andraste's visions told her about how The Blights started, in this very game it is basically confirmed that is how it started.

 

The visions also claimed that the Old Gods were trapped under the earth by The Maker, and this is also true.

 

If The Maker does not exist, who threw Coryface and his pals out of The Black City? (an event also told in the Chant).

 

 

Not character in this world is to be believed about the lore as they only know one side, Andraste, Cory, even Solas, only know part truths. No one can deny the existence of a God like being in Thedas because no one knows the full truth (and hopefully we never will).

[Ieldra]

You'd think, I am not a believer in the Alighty in the real world. Yet, this fictional world has too many unexplained things and fantastical things existing to deny the existence of a spiritual overseer, so to speak. People seem happy to claim that Solas is that or that and the Old Gods are such a thing with little evidence of anything but when it comes to The Maker they deny it without hesitation. We have more evidence here that The Maker exists in this world.

The thing is, the fact that something is unexplained gives no weight to the hypothesis "some intelligent entity must've made it that way". It's just one of countless possible explanations for the same set of observations, and without additional data it has equal weight to any of them. If you prefer this one to any other, that says nothing about the world, only about you.

 

And as for the Old Gods and the elven gods, they point to an additional problem: the term "god" can be applied to anyone and anything because there is no agreed-upon definition. We now know that beings exist which name themselves Mythal and Fen'Harel and which appear to be the same beings that appear in elven mythology, yet you may name them gods or super-powerful mages with equal justification. Whether you see something as a god or something else depends purely on you, and thus naming something "god" says nothing about the world, only about you.

 

The Old Gods, are they intelligent dragons? We know that there are corrupted dragons intelligent enough to lead a military campaign, we can infer with some confidence that they were uncorrupted at some time. We do *not* know if they are identical to those dragons venerated by the Old Imperium as the "Old Gods", but something is apparently special about them as indicated by the events surrounding Morrigan if you did her ritual in DAO.

 

When speaking of these things from the viewpoint of a scholar, we need to be extremely careful about claiming knowledge.

 

Edit:

About the Blights and the Golden City:

 

We know - I'll treat this as knowledge after DAI - that some magisters of the Old Imperium entered the city which they had perceived as golden and came back as darkspawn. We know *nothing* about why and how that happened, and there is most notably no indication that an act of an intelligent entity was responsible. Also, the Chantry's version of the tale is instructional, not descriptive, and thus highly suspect as evidence for anything. We also have no knowledge at all about how the so-called Old Gods fit into the story, except that Corypheus was a high priest of Dumat. If the Old Imperium's gods were the same dragons we see later in corrupted form as archdemons, then it is still not clear if they had any active role in the story, nor if they even communicated with those who worshipped them.

[Antergaton]

The thing is, the fact that something is unexplained gives no weight to the hypothesis "some intelligent entity must've made it that way". It's just one of countless possible explanations for the same set of observations. If you prefer this one to any other, that says nothing about the world, only about you.

 

And as for the Old Gods and the elven gods, they point to an additional problem: the term "god" can be applied to anyone and anything because there is no agreed-upon definition. We now know that beings exist which name themselves Mythal and Fen'Harel and which appear to be the same beings that appear in elven mythology, yet you may name them gods or super-powerful mages with equal justification. Whether you see something as a god or something else depends purely on you, and thus naming something "god" says nothing about the world, only about you.

 

The Old Gods, are they intelligent dragons? We know that there are corrupted dragons intelligent enough to lead a military campaign, we can infer with some confidence that they were uncorrupted at some time. We do *not* know if they are identical to those dragons venerated by the Old Imperium as the "Old Gods", but something is apparently special about them as indicated by the events surrounding Morrigan if you did her ritual in DAO.

 

You'd be surprised how many physicists are believers in a higher being. For all humanities proven facts, after a time, many people go back to fundamentals. Sure, the universe is expanding from the Big Bang... but expanding into what? Many will believe in a higher being because of these unexplained things. Yes, it is up to the person but that is a real world scenario. Thedas is not real.

 

Magic does not exist in our world, we know this. I cannot produce fire from my hands, I do not dream in another entire realm of existence. What we are being shown in this game world is fact. There is magic, the fade exists. They are far above the explanation of science of that world (even ours) so the only way to explain their existence is a higher being which created it.

 

I think it is fact that the Old Gods are intelligent Dragons, there are numerous facts in Thedas that confirm this, from the Darkspawn using them to lead and the fact they apparently talked to humans enough to make them worship them. But again, like your point suggests, the term 'god' is the thing in question. Are they gods? Yes, because they of the basic definition of the word (being a superhuman being or spirit that is worshipped, which they are).

[fchopin]

It might be an obviously answered question, but where IS the Maker? Cory says the seat is empty.

The maker got up to make himself a cup of tea and Cory says the sit is empty.
Why did Cory not wait for a few minutes ? he may have got some free tea if he did.

[Ieldra]

Magic does not exist in our world, we know this. I cannot produce fire from my hands, I do not dream in another entire realm of existence. What we are being shown in this game world is fact. There is magic, the fade exists. They are far above the explanation of science of that world (even ours) so the only way to explain their existence is a higher being which created it.

That does not follow. There are countless things that happen with no intelligent entity being involved (since not everything is possessed by a spirit), so why is the hypothesis that "a god did it" suddenly to be preferred for those things we can't yet explain? That makes no sense. An additional problem is that a god really explains nothing. You will continue to question: "who made the god" and "how did they do it"  and if your answers are "the god is eternal" and "they willed it into existence", well, I can claim the state of things that needs to be explained "just is that way" with equal justification. 

 

(Oh, and btw.: I could create a world like Thedas within an SF scenario, with no one within it being any the wiser about which kind of world they live in, including perfectly valid scientific explanations for everything, even though the technology would still be beyond that of the present real world. The creator of that world would be akin to the Maker, and yet no one within the world would be in any way justified to prefer the explanation "a god did it" to any other).

[pawswithclaws]

The maker got up to make himself a cup of tea and Cory says the sit is empty.
Why did Cory not wait for a few minutes ? he may have got some free tea if he did.

The Maker clearly only had tea for one person. Thus he hid while Cory was there so he didn't have to share.