116 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

To defend himself in one specific instance. My first character was also a Mage, so like wise that was my first encounter with Blood Magic too.  
 
He actually explains to Lily that the reason he studies Blood Magic in the first place is because he thought it would grant him more power, which (more than a few times) we've seen lead to **** hitting the fan. Actually, with Jowan, I think it's even worse since we knew he was supposed to be made Tranquil. Somebody who fully admits to being a mediocre mage and couldn't pass their Harrowing is going to be trusted with Blood Magic, something that Mages ten times his skill can't handle?
 
Edit: And to be clear, I was speaking in the "we should tolerate it" sense.

The phrase he used is "I thought it would make me a better mage". I don't see the power-hunger here. Also, there is no indication that a demon was involved, and he survives the story mentally and physically intact if you let him.

I concede that letting apprentices learn blood magic is likely not wise, but that's not what I was getting at. It's rather that the claim "It never ends well" is hyperbole and ideological BS, as opposed to "It's too dangerous to allow an inexperienced mage to handle it".

[Ieldra]

Just for clarity: The concept of using someone's blood to enhance magic power is not evil. I simply call it a concept that cannot be used by emotional beings without turning them into self-righteous idiots eventually. As do many other "concepts" - but this one makes the top tier of that list, so the supposed "disproportional" shunning and precautions are justified. Noone is smart enough to have themselves under control at all time.

That's like saying that everyone who owns a gun will eventually use it to shoot someone without sufficient justification. I don't think you can find sufficient evidence for such a claim.

[Roamingmachine]

Well, beyond the fact that we're all going to be at the mercy of whoever has the most power. You kind of get a Social Contract Theory going. The goal is to provide the least potential for abuse possible. A lot of arguments in defense of Mages do so by making reference to "Well, look at how this is abused!". That's not an argument against Mage control, that's an argument that we have to do a better job of stopping other forms of abuse. Ask most people how they would feel if individuals walked around with rocket launchers taped to the arms, but were "trained" to use them correctly. I doubt you'll find many sympathizers. 

 

And again, when I say "sympathetic Blood Mage", I don't mean the game giving us someone who's a Blood Mage who also happens to be sympathetic. I'm speaking of the game defending the use of Blood Magic via its in character voices. We see this happen with normal Mages, but even amongst their own kind, Blood Magic is viewed as something of a pariah. 

 

Merrill's a fun character, I love her. Her employment of Blood Magic is not something the game seems to be telling us was a good decision. Actually, most of her tragedy is a direct result of her use of Blood Magic, leads to her exile, and the potential death of her entire clan. 

 

Funny, i thought it was mainly about her faffing about with spirits and demons. Something that is very much taboo in Dalish culture.  Also, she does kinda refer to blood magic as a tool and nothing else.

I didn't bring up societal contract; you did. There are many kinds of those and the one you describe is the one belonging to a nanny state but thats not the argument here. The argument is whether or not blood magic is evil. So far there has been not a single argument contradicting my point that blood magic is a tool and in itself is neither good nor evil but can be used for either depending on user.

[LobselVith8]

The Warden and Hawke possibly being Blood Mages was always a case of gameplay and story segregation.

Not at all. Duncan says some Warden mages use blood magic because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn in the Magi Origin, and the Warden can tell Levi Dryden that the order doesn't prohibit it. There was even a scene where the Warden could admit to being a blood mage, but it was cut because it bugged the Landsmeet if you killed Greagoir and Irving.

If you're a blood mage, Morrigan makes an indirect reference to it when she talks about the dark ritual.

Apostate Hawke being a blood mage would be no different than Merrill being a blood mage. It can make sense.

It never made much sense in-universe, just as as it didn't make any sense to make Wynne a Blood Mage in Origins or Anders one in Awakening.

Wynne isn't the Warden, but a character directly outside player control; completely different.

That's why it was taken out as an option in Inquisition. As far as the devs are concerned, mage Hawke and mage Warden were not Blood Mages.

The developers never said the Warden isn't a blood mage.

[Dieb]

That's like saying that everyone who owns a gun will eventually use it to shoot someone without sufficient justification. I don't think you can find sufficient evidence for such a claim.

 

 

No one can find empirical evidence for that.

 

No one can find empricial evidence, that everyone who understands the basic concept of the nuclear bomb and knows how to push a button and really REALLY promises not to push it, shouldn't have one, either.

 

Then again I'm European.

[LobselVith8]

you'll always have players who INSIST that the PC is theirs and that it's bad writing if they can't determine every aspect of it. "if I want my PC to be a priest of Dumat who is also a fire fighter, then I should dammit!"

Some people find it inconsistent with how they defined their character in a roleplaying game that invites players to shape who their character is.

Some people have also pointed out that Hawke being in a romantic relationship with Merrill (who is a blood mage) and hating blood mages and blood magic doesn't really mesh well.

[Chashan]

It's not just about the specialization, though. Hawke could make pretty evil blood mage-y choices within the story, as well. I've mentioned this before, but I have a Hawke who made Orana her slave and let a demon possess Feynriel. She also gave Isabela to the Qunari, let Danarius have Fenris back and stabbed Anders, even though she agreed with him and sided with the mages. I find it absolutely hilarious that she became such a preachy goody two-shoes in Inquisition; I don't mind it, since it kinda makes sense that such a cartoonish evil character would just pretend for fun, but the change was pretty extreme nevertheless.

 

I certainly do, as it's pretty much voided any reason I would want to replay DA2 in the future.

 

 

What people need to remember is that as of the end of DA2 Hawke is no longer in their hands. There is no possible way for Bioware to accommodate every individual's take on the character and since time has passed it makes a lot of sense as to why even the most optimistic and pragmatic version of Hawke comes to loathe the type of magic that has been the primary source of strife in his life.

 

Which is precisely why BW should have abstained from including them. They could have relegated the question of whether the Wardens are redeemable or whether they need to GTFO, which is about the only purpose Hawke's appearance supposedly serves in DA:I, to someone else, without trampling over how that PC was played, including how they viewed one branch of magic specifically or mages in general.

 

As for the supposed impact of potentially 'sacrificing' said PC in DA:I? Speaking for myself, I found DA:I's Hawke to be an irrecognizable stranger, not the PC I had gotten to know and shape in DA2.

[Arakat]

I certainly do, as it's pretty much voided any reason I would want to replay DA2 in the future.

 

I was speaking along the lines that the evil Hawke was a joke to me to begin with (I always make a character to test out the most awful choices, they're never my canon), so I don't really care how she was represented. Had my canon Hawke been a blood mage or supportive of blood magic, I'd certainly be upset at the turn she took in Inquisition.

[Giantdeathrobot]

That's like saying that everyone who owns a gun will eventually use it to shoot someone without sufficient justification. I don't think you can find sufficient evidence for such a claim.

 

I don't think the gun analogy works. A gun only solves one problem; you want this person dead, you shoot, down they go. In the policed society we have today, such measures are often overkill and thus limit its usage. That's all I'm going to say because I have no intention of making it a gun control debate.

 

Blood magic has so many more uses. Generally make you a better mage (per Jowan). Destroy a roomfull of enemies. Dominate someone's mind. Fuel your spells with the life of others. Enable rituals you couldn't do otherwise (like going to the Fade). Enslave demons to your bidding. So on and so forth. All of these uses are as many temptations, and since Thedas is not a policed society, you have that much more opportunities to use it.

 

I mean, of course you could stay the good boy who only uses his own blood to defend himself. But just maybe, this one time, you could do X if you took a larger helping out of person Y. You're not going to kill them, and you'll accomplish so much, what's the harm? Then maybe you kill that one person, but to do something extraordinary, or because the circumstances require it, so it's justified, innt? And then it's probable the downward spiral commences. Dorian argues as much in no uncertain terms, and he's probably as familiar with blood magic and its misuses as anyone can get in the setting.

 

Power corrupts, after all, and blood magic is loads of power. Jowan, Merill, Malcom, other than the PCs I think that's the end of the list for blood mages who weren't evil.

[Heimdall]

Rivalmances make no sense whatsoever to me.

On most of them I agree, but I actually think Merrill's works

[thedancingdruid]

Doesn't it depend on whether one is looking at blood magic as a school in and of itself or simply a component?

 

For example, in discussing the possible "evil" blood mage Quentin, he was, first and foremost, a necromancer, not a blood mage. Gaspard is interested in Quentin teaching him necromancy and the only evidence of blood magic in play at this point is of a phylactery type being used by Gaspard in order to get a location on Quentin via the use of the blood of potential victims. Granted in Act III one meets the "harvester", however, I'm, at least, still confused on exactly how such a thing is created. Is it from the school of Necromancy or Blood? Who knows.

 

So, if Hawke's sudden disdain for all things blood-magic related is based mostly on Quentin and the death of Leandra, I don't buy it.

 

Also, keep in mind, Corypheus would have been freed much sooner had not blood magic kept him in place. So there's that.

 

All in all, Hawke's character can seem OOC depending on personal import, however, as others have said, Hawke is no longer ours to play. I think I, for one, will simply allow Hawke to fulfill Flemeth's prophecy regarding the "plummet into the Abyss" and leave her in the Fade.

[Il Divo]

The phrase he used is "I thought it would make me a better mage". I don't see the power-hunger here. 

 

 

I'd say that's a semantic issue, more than anything else. Sure, Jowan isn't a maniacal laugher, moustouache-twirling villain, but his base justification is, at its core, the same driving force: ambition and he wants stronger abilities.

 

He couldn't hack it with magic the normal way, hence why he's set to be made tranquil in the first place, so the solution was to engage in something that requires even more skill and discipline to be learned safely. 

 

 Also, there is no indication that a demon was involved, and he survives the story mentally and physically intact if you let him.

 

 

Surviving the story mentally and physically intact isn't really a great accomplishment in this case. And mentally, Jowan seems pretty down, given his actions. His story is far from a happy demonstration of the utility of Blood Magic. 

 

I concede that letting apprentices learn blood magic is likely not wise, but that's not what I was getting at. It's rather that the claim "It never ends well" is hyperbole and ideological BS, as opposed to "It's too dangerous to allow an inexperienced mage to handle it". 

 

 

The point is which end of the extreme is more accurate? From most instances we've seen, Blood Magic tends far more to "it never ends well" than "it always ends well". We have a few highly specialized circumstances, such as the Joining Ritual, versus more general cases of "Mage summons demons, goes crazy, gets killed" which tends to be far closer to what the player is allowed to experience.  

 

As I said, outside of PC characters, how many times have we seen the "sympathetic" Blood Mage? The one who merely wants to practice his craft, isn't completely incompetent, and doesn't directly or indirectly hurt anyone?  We've seen sympathetic Mages, sure. We've seen sympathetic characters who happen to be Blood Mages. But the blood magic is always used as a point of negativity, even by characters who might be more inclined to support it, such as Anders (an abomination) and Dorian (Tevinter Citizen). And the threat posed by Blood Magic is far more substantial than more mundane weapons, hence why it represents a greater risk. 

 

If other, far more accomplished, Mages can't handle Blood Magic without going crazy. In the long term, I don't see Jowan's story ending well, assuming he were to continue practicing. 

 

[Il Divo]

I am curious where this 99% of blood magic usage ends in tragedy claim comes from.  99% of the cases you hear of maybe, but I'd like to see some evidence that those that we hear of are the only cases of blood magic usage across Thedas.  Maybe they only account for 0.5% of actual blood magic usage, but you know, since bad stuff happened MSNBC/FOX News/Daily Mirror/Dwarven Criers/Your trash news source of preference had to go all sensationalistic on it.

 

http://en.wikipedia...._from_ignorance

[Il Divo]

 

I didn't bring up societal contract; you did. There are many kinds of those and the one you describe is the one belonging to a nanny state but thats not the argument here. The argument is whether or not blood magic is evil. So far there has been not a single argument contradicting my point that blood magic is a tool and in itself is neither good nor evil but can be used for either depending on user.

 

Not sure I'm following your meaning here. I brought up the Social Contract as a demonstration that people collectively desire safety and security, to some extent. Blood Magic (and Mages in general) represent a threat because a Mage going crazy has the potential to cause serious harm in comparison to what others have access to. 

 

I'm not sure why the inherent "good" or "evil" of a thing is important in evaluating Blood Magic. Sure, Blood Magic can be used for "good", theoretically. The Joining allows us to kill Archdemons and that's pretty damn good. But there are plenty of things which can, conceptually at least, be used for good but that in practice aren't worth the cost, hence the dictatorship comparison. 

 

We're not shown Blood Magic as being this positive force of "Good" the way a Mage might heal someone's wounds, for example, and that's largely because of the end result of its users. 

[Ieldra]

If other, far more accomplished, Mages can't handle Blood Magic without going crazy. In the long term, I don't see Jowan's story ending well, assuming he were to continue practicing. 

If blood magic is forbidden and despised, the overwhelming majority of people who use it anyway will be people who don't care about being shunned by society. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

 

IIRC, we don't have a single example of a mage going insane from use of blood magic. Almost all of the blood mages we see are already crazy, and those whose history we do know - Avernus, Malcolm Hawke, Jowan - most notably do not go insane. I'd say the claim that people tend to go insane from use of blood magic is based on pretty thin evidence. 

[LobselVith8]

And again, when I say "sympathetic Blood Mage", I don't mean the game giving us someone who's a Blood Mage who also happens to be sympathetic. I'm speaking of the game defending the use of Blood Magic via its in character voices. We see this happen with normal Mages, but even amongst their own kind, Blood Magic is viewed as something of a pariah.

There are some who argue otherwise. Duncan matter-of-factly states that some Grey Warden mages use it against the darkspawn, while Solas argues it's simply a tool and not inherently evil.

Generally speaking, Merrill's statement that spirits are simply spirits is simply about her cultural and religious perspective differing from how Andrastians view them as 'Spirits' and 'Demons', the 'First Children of the Maker', and those who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity.

Merrill's a fun character, I love her. Her employment of Blood Magic is not something the game seems to be telling us was a good decision. Actually, most of her tragedy is a direct result of her use of Blood Magic, leads to her exile, and the potential death of her entire clan.

Most of the tragedy is the result of the inept Keeper continually trying to manipulate Merrill to return to the clan (that lead to Pol's death), and eventually releasing Audacity in the name of "protecting Merrill", as opposed to the usage of blood magic to cleanse an Eluvian shard of the darkspawn taint.

It's flawed logic to claim you want to protect someone, and then try to kill them as a powerful, dangerous abomination. That seemed to be the inherent issue in Merrill's storyline, rather than her using blood magic for benevolent purposes.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Blood magic isn't evil. It just happens to have a high statistically possibility to be used for evil or lead to horrific events to occur. Honestly, I'm fine with mages learning about the nature of blood magic and the scope of its capabilities, my problem is when mages like Jowan or Merrill decide to learn it by themselves with no outside supervision or damage control around to ensure their safety and that of others. Merrill was practicing blood magic, which we know as a fact to be capable of weakening the Veil and attracting demons, right in the middle of the fricking Alienage. What if she lost control and was possessed, and immediately started rampaging across the Alienage, eating elves like candy bars? If mages want to practice blood magic then doing so alone is simply to dangerous, and thus there needs to be some form of control system in place to ensure that abominations don't run wild all over Thedas. Perhaps a retinue of Templars/Seekers/Lyrium-Users should be close at hand when a team of mages decide they want to learn it, along with a another group of mages whose job it is to delve into the Fade and combat demons if one or more of those practicing blood mages become possessed, like with the Connor exorcism solution. You can't deny that blood magic is more dangerous then any other form of magic seen thus far and it cannot be treated as a tool that's no more deadly then swords, knives, or fire magic. Isn't and it should be treated with the care that it deserves. 

 

When it comes to Hawke suddenly having a grudge against blood magic even if he himself could be a blood mage, well, I'll just say that Hawke was never really a blood mage in Dragon Age 2. The story itself never acknowledged that spec, or any other, even when you'd think it would have incredible repercussions for the story arc and companion relationships it doesn't, which in my minds means that the spec was solely a combat thing that didn't happen in the actual story. 

[Ieldra]

@LobselVith8:
I agree with you, but I get the impression that the story wants us to see Merrill at fault nonetheless.

[TastesLikeTNT]

 

He couldn't hack it with magic the normal way, hence why he's set to be made tranquil in the first place, so the solution was to engage in something that requires even more skill and discipline to be learned safely. 

 

 

As far as I recall, Jowan started using blood magic because he was jealous that the mage PC was significantly more talented with magic than him, not because he couldn't do normal magic at all. He was set out to be made tranquil because someone saw him doing it. 

[Il Divo]

If blood magic is forbidden and despised, the overwhelming majority of people who use it anyway will be people who don't care about being shunned by society. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

 

IIRC, we don't have a single example of a mage going insane from use of blood magic. Almost all of the blood mages we see are already crazy, and those whose history we do know - Avernus, Malcolm Hawke, Jowan - most notably do not go insane. I'd say the claim that people tend to go insane from use of blood magic is based on pretty thin evidence. 

 

 

I'd contend those examples are questionable.

 

Avernus himself resorted to Blood Magic in designing terrible experiments to cure the Joining and eventually fell to demon summoning, which turned against him. Malcolm Hawke, according to the Wiki, used Blood Magic against his will in sealing Corypheus, which I did indicate as being a "highly specialized exception", comparable to the Joining Ceremony. 

Again with Jowan, we have the half-baked apprentice issue. His survival doesn't indicate that "Blood Magic is okay". He's not even a competent Mage, by his own admission, so I think it's doubtful he can be used as a successful example of Blood Magic's acceptance. 

 

And likewise, with both Anders and Dorian, we see that there is a stigma against Blood Magic that isn't simply the result of individuals being born insane. Anders is the greatest Mage proponent of the bunch, not to mention an abomination, and he criticizes the use of Blood Magic by others and Dorian himself having grown up in Tevinter views it as abhorrent, despite its fairly common usage.

 

I didn't intend to be so literal in using the term "insane". You could substitute "Morally bankrupt, incompetent, Sociopath, etc" in its place. 

[Il Divo]

As far as I recall, Jowan started using blood magic because he was jealous that the mage PC was significantly more talented with magic than him, not because he couldn't do normal magic at all. He was set out to be made tranquil because someone saw him doing it. 

 

When was this exactly? I recall Jowan's fear is related to the fact that Irving won't give him his Harrowing because of his lack of skill. 

 

Edit: I do recall there being some rumors that Jowan practiced Blood Magic tossed around, but (if Irving thought it was true) I think his approach to solving the problem was pretty pathetic. 

[TastesLikeTNT]

When was this exactly? I recall Jowan's fear is related to the fact that Irving won't give him his Harrowing because of his lack of skill. 

 

Edit: I do recall there being some rumors that Jowan practiced Blood Magic tossed around, but (if Irving thought it was true) I think his approach to solving the problem was pretty pathetic. 

 

If you tell Teagan you want to execute Jowan personally, you can go to the dungeons, chat him up and ask him why he turned to blood magic and he'll tell you just that. He is a man-shaped bag of terrible life decisions.

 

During the conversation he has with you after you wake up in the Circle, depending on the options you pick, he can also tell you that "he's been ready for the Harrowing for a long time", but that he's worried they don't want to test him. I think it's because he knows at that point they're going tranquil him, and he's leading up to the conversation you have later where he asks you to bust him out of the Tower.

[Il Divo]

If you tell Teagan you want to execute Jowan personally, you can go to the dungeons, chat him up and ask him why he turned to blood magic and he'll tell you just that. He is a man-shaped bag of terrible life decisions.

 

During the conversation he has with you after you wake up in the Circle, depending on the options you pick, he can also tell you that "he's been ready for the Harrowing for a long time", but that he's worried they don't want to test him. I think it's because he knows at that point they're going tranquil him, and he's leading up to the conversation you have later where he asks you to bust him out of the Tower.

 

That is an interesting conversation. It's funny since that was the option I chose on my first play through, but I completely forgot about it. 

 

So some things (I'm taking away from that clip):

 

1. So for Jowan, it wasn't really about being a Mage failure, but jealousy of the Warden/wanting more power/control (in his words).

 

2. Jowan doesn't seem to have gone too far down into Blood Magic and did seem to regret making the decision in the first place, partially because he believes it's morally wrong and because of Lily's influence.

 

3. Is it ever officially confirmed that someone told Irving of Jowan using Blood Magic? That bit I still can't seem to find in there.