115 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

I'd contend those examples are questionable.
 
Avernus himself resorted to Blood Magic in designing terrible experiments to cure the Joining and eventually fell to demon summoning, which turned against him. Malcolm Hawke, according to the Wiki, used Blood Magic against his will in sealing Corypheus, which I did indicate as being a "highly specialized exception", comparable to the Joining Ceremony. 
Again with Jowan, we have the half-baked apprentice issue. His survival doesn't indicate that "Blood Magic is okay". He's not even a competent Mage, by his own admission, so I think it's doubtful he can be used as a successful example of Blood Magic's acceptance. 
 
And likewise, with both Anders and Dorian, we see that there is a stigma against Blood Magic that isn't simply the result of individuals being born insane. Anders is the greatest Mage proponent of the bunch, not to mention an abomination, and he criticizes the use of Blood Magic by others and Dorian himself having grown up in Tevinter views it as abhorrent, despite its fairly common usage.
 
I didn't intend to be so literal in using the term "insane". You could substitute "Morally bankrupt, incompetent, Sociopath, etc" in its place.

Actually, if you ask Dorian about it, he does make the distinction of using your own blood vs. human sacrifice. He says most users won't stay with the former, yes, but in his circles people tend to be pretty unscrupulous to start with. Anders is a devout Andrastian.

The thing is, I just don't believe in "tools that make you evil". As it appears to me, blood magic is not more inherently corrupting than any other kind of power, and it's generally more a matter of "power attracts the corruptible" rather than "power corrupts". If a story wants me to accept tools that make you evil, it has to be very explicit about it, and then it's quite likely I'll reject it altogether because I find the very idea ludicrous. If, like Merrill, I use my own blood to power a spell because I don't have lyrium, the very idea that this sets me on a slippery slope is bloody f*cking ridiculous, and if a story repeatedly contrives circumstances to make it appear so that just makes me accuse it of spreading a delusional meme. A universe where this is convincingly different can exist of course, but DA isn't that universe because morality isn't built into its structure.

[TastesLikeTNT]

 

 

3. Is it ever officially confirmed that someone told Irving of Jowan using Blood Magic? That bit I still can't seem to find in there. 

 

Greagoir apparently had proof and eyewitness testimony (1:29) that Jowan had used blood magic, according to Irving. 

[Ryriena]

Greagoir apparently had proof and eyewitness testimony (1:29) that Jowan had used blood magic, according to Irving.

Yeah basiclly it was all under this one mage person say so and no trial ect

[leaguer of one]

That's like saying that everyone who owns a gun will eventually use it to shoot someone without sufficient justification. I don't think you can find sufficient evidence for such a claim.

No one is saying that. We're saying most are too untrained to use it properly. While others are way too dependent on it.

[Phoe77]

No one is saying that. We're saying most are too untrained to use it properly. While others are way too dependent on it.

 

I agree with that sentiment, but those are flaws of the people using the tool rather than the tool itself.  Not only does the stigma surrounding blood magic ensure that those of dubious morality are more likely to take it up, but it also ensures that many of them will start using it without the benefit of any experience or knowledge on what to expect.  To me, it seems like the dangers of blood magic are more of a self-fulfilling prophesy than an inherent quality of the school itself.  

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  Only, money doesn't come with hoards of demons howling in your brains.  Guns don't "power up" the more you use them. 

 

And the idea that "more money" = "more corruption" is not true... while the same cannot be said of blood magic.  "More blood magic" = "More corrupt acts" is a pretty established fact.

 

I don't care if the practice is somehow writ "EVIL" in the fabric of the universe... it is actively corrupting (as oppose to passively corrupting as per example provided above). 

 

Blood magic is a "thing" that operates like a sentient evil being acts and not like a passive tool.

I also do not agree in the equality of all tools.

 

The function of a hammer is to build (specifically through the driving of nails into structural materials) - that it "can also" kill, does not make it the same as a gun. A gun's function is only violence - regardless of "self-defense" or murder. 

 

Blood magic alone... is like a knife.  A knife holds complex functionality. 

 

However, blood magic is NOT alone... blood magic is attached to another dimension wherein alien forces seek to cajole you into further acts of blood magic which require further, and deeper, acts of violence against the self or the other (eventually demanding "other" as a price for stronger blood magic).

 

Blood magic is only "free from the Fade" in the sense that it does not require mana... it is enslaved to demons - and so too, the blood mage. 

 

Any mage telling me: "I'd be strong enough." is the first sign they wouldn't be.

 

That being said, I am not totally opposed to it's theoretical study in very controlled environments and strict, prohibitive application on a communal level.  But never individual practice - any "independent" blood mage is a person, to me, that says: "I am the type of person desiring to resort to violence against other people to actively achieve my ends."  That is, to me, unacceptable. 

[Ieldra]

@Medhia_Nox:
If you believe that the desire for individual autonomy is inextricably linked with disregard for others, we have a disagreement so fundamental that there is nothing left to discuss. The willingness to use my own blood for a spell says nothing, absolutely nothing, about my desire to harm others. The cornerstone of my personal philosophy is "live and let live", and I take that seriously. On both sides.

[In Exile]

The phrase he used is "I thought it would make me a better mage". I don't see the power-hunger here. Also, there is no indication that a demon was involved, and he survives the story mentally and physically intact if you let him.

I concede that letting apprentices learn blood magic is likely not wise, but that's not what I was getting at. It's rather that the claim "It never ends well" is hyperbole and ideological BS, as opposed to "It's too dangerous to allow an inexperienced mage to handle it".

He admits he does it because he's jealous. A person with no talent for magic trying out power he doesn't understand largely out of fear and jealously is a bad idea. The blame is obviously on the system - Jowan likely wouldn't have resorted to it if loboty wasn't on the table - but even in a world where BM is available Jowan should never be a candidate for it.

[Ieldra]

He admits he does it because he's jealous. A person with no talent for magic trying out power he doesn't understand largely out of fear and jealously is a bad idea. The blame is obviously on the system - Jowan likely wouldn't have resorted to it if loboty wasn't on the table - but even in a world where BM is available Jowan should never be a candidate for it.

I agree, but that was not what this was about. The point was that he's neither evil nor did he become that - or insane - in the end.

[Il Divo]

I agree, but that was not what this was about. The point was that he's neither evil nor did he become that - or insane - in the end.

 

But still being a questionable example, because he's not a full on "Blood Mage". By Jowan's own admission, he regretted the decision as soon as he began, regarded it as a moment of weakness. and decided to turn away from it until the Templars came after him. Not to mention, he doesn't exactly come out of the story completely unscathed. 

 

The point isn't "Blood Magic should never be used under any circumstances", hence the existence of isolated instances of its utility. The whole "it's just a tool" argument is disputable because a tool's allowance is dependent on its potential for abuse, which Magic in general suffers from. 

[Il Divo]

Actually, if you ask Dorian about it, he does make the distinction of using your own blood vs. human sacrifice. He says most users won't stay with the former, yes, but in his circles people tend to be pretty unscrupulous to start with. Anders is a devout Andrastian.
 

 

In regard to this: Anders had a Spirit of Justice placed inside him and is by definition an Abomination. He's not a traditional Andrastian by any means. I find it difficult to believe, under those parameters, that he would distance himself from Blood Magic merely because it's against the Chantry. 

[Viper371]

So having a Hawke who can, after the incidents with his/her mother, still use blood magic, is inconsistent & silly. More thought should have been put into this, even back then.

Lots of people are killed by swords.  Should Hawke&companions have renounced swords?

Lots of people are killed by regular, non blood magic.  Should Hawke&companions have renounced all form of magic?

 

Magic is just a tool.  It's what you do with it that counts.  Blood magic is generally evil because you need so much blood that you end up sacrificing people.

But using a bit of your own blood as fuel is no worst than using lyrium.  Heck, Templars are destroyed by lyrium, and as we see DA:I, they stop at nothing to be more powerful, even killing&mutilating their own.

[In Exile]

I agree, but that was not what this was about. The point was that he's neither evil nor did he become that - or insane - in the end.

I'm just saying that when we consider the morality of BM we have to considered that there are idiot mages out there who will absolutely do the equivalent of looking down the barell of a loaded gun while holding the trigger.

[In Exile]

Lots of people are killed by swords. Should Hawke&companions have renounced swords?
Lots of people are killed by regular, non blood magic. Should Hawke&companions have renounced all form of magic?

Magic is just a tool. It's what you do with it that counts. Blood magic is generally evil because you need so much blood that you end up sacrificing people.
But using a bit of your own blood as fuel is no worst than using lyrium. Heck, Templars are destroyed by lyrium, and as we see DA:I, they stop at nothing to be more powerful, even killing&mutilating their own.

The analogy doesn't work exactly because weapons can be more easily regulated since they're separate from people. Ignoring the scale issues of course. If we had sword related issues we could ban swords or restrict access to them. Trying the same with mages led to the abuse of the Circles.

[Ieldra]

I'm just saying that when we consider the morality of BM we have to considered that there are idiot mages out there who will absolutely do the equivalent of looking down the barell of a loaded gun while holding the trigger.

That's not a question of morality. Idiots going for the Darwin Award don't make guns any better or worse. They affect the validity of legislation. In analogy to firearm laws in some countries, that would mean that you'd need a license to practice blood magic (using only yourself or willing participants as a source). I'm not sure how feasible that is, but I'd find it acceptable as long as the authority issuing the license isn't the Chantry.

(Again, I'm finding just how much of my dislike of the pre-Inquisition status quo has to do with the fact that I deny the Chantry legitimacy for regulating magic, rather than the desire to leave magic unregulated).

[Secret Rare]

I don't get that thinking. It was not blood magic that killed his/her mother,it was an insane man. Saying all mages are bad because of the actions of one is flawed logic.

Except for the fact that Behind this was the protection of Orsino, The Kirkwall circle of mages was beyond any hope of salvation.

[Serza]

http://youtu.be/4K2tO2Jd6a4?t=9m42s

 

Apparently you could have talked with Hawke about why he hates blood magic and he gives his reasons why. Also, Hawke could have given a summary about what happened in Kirkwall. Cut content?

 

And Hawke's who fell for Merrill...?

 

Summary of Kirkwall could work, but complete hate towards Blood Mages if the love of your life is one does not really work, you see.

[TheJediSaint]

And Hawke's who fell for Merrill...?

 

Summary of Kirkwall could work, but complete hate towards Blood Mages if the love of your life is one does not really work, you see.

It works for Hawkes who rivalmanced Merrill.

[Cecilia]

Actually, if you ask Dorian about it, he does make the distinction of using your own blood vs. human sacrifice. He says most users won't stay with the former, yes, but in his circles people tend to be pretty unscrupulous to start with. Anders is a devout Andrastian.

The thing is, I just don't believe in "tools that make you evil". As it appears to me, blood magic is not more inherently corrupting than any other kind of power, and it's generally more a matter of "power attracts the corruptible" rather than "power corrupts". If a story wants me to accept tools that make you evil, it has to be very explicit about it, and then it's quite likely I'll reject it altogether because I find the very idea ludicrous. If, like Merrill, I use my own blood to power a spell because I don't have lyrium, the very idea that this sets me on a slippery slope is bloody f*cking ridiculous, and if a story repeatedly contrives circumstances to make it appear so that just makes me accuse it of spreading a delusional meme. A universe where this is convincingly different can exist of course, but DA isn't that universe because morality isn't built into its structure.

 

I remember there's a text you find in the time-locked Tevinter ruins in ... the Hissing Wastes? in DA:I that is a Tevinter text condemning the use of blood magic. It talks about how blood magic may not be "evil" per se, but every well-known instance of its use has had unintended/undesirable consequences - something along the lines of "yes, blood magic saved someone's life, but even then it required the death of a good man (the user of the magic who used his own blood) and how can we say something like that is worthwhile?"

 

It's a slippery slope argument - how do we know blood mages will stop at drawing their own blood? We don't. So the only potential "legislative" solution is to ban blood magic altogether. I think it's also a question of what blood magic can accomplish that people find so terrifying and reprehensible - demon summoning/binding, mind control - as well as the fact that utilizing blood magic basically provides the user with the potential for limitless power. A mage will always run out of mana and there are limitations to lyrium usage, but as long as there are living things around them, they will not run out of a source of power for their blood magic. It's a temptation that is pretty irresistible and it's irrational to believe that most people will be able to resist it.

 

Think of it almost like gun control - guns aren't inherently terrible and can be used for both good and bad, but most actual uses of guns are negative/criminal. The best way to discourage those who are borderline whether or not to do this criminal act is to limit their access to the tool in question which increases the cost of the action in question. 

[LobselVith8]

And Hawke's who fell for Merrill...?

Summary of Kirkwall could work, but complete hate towards Blood Mages if the love of your life is one does not really work, you see.

That is part of the problem with this characterization of Hawke. If Merrill was befriended and romanced, then it's jarring to hear him condemn blood mages and blood magic when his romantic interest is a practicing blood mage.

[earymir]

http://youtu.be/4K2tO2Jd6a4?t=9m42s
 
Apparently you could have talked with Hawke about why he hates blood magic and he gives his reasons why. Also, Hawke could have given a summary about what happened in Kirkwall. Cut content?

Thanks - I wonder why they cut it? It could even justify Hawke turning away from blood magic him/herself if that were the case.

[Serza]

It works for Hawkes who rivalmanced Merrill.

 

Friendmance, thank you very much...

 

That is part of the problem with this characterization of Hawke. If Merrill was befriended and romanced, then it's jarring to hear him condemn blood mages and blood magic when his romantic interest is a practicing blood mage.

 

Exactly... Like... "The love of your life is a Blood Mage, and you condemn every last one of them without exceptions? What the heck!"

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Its like the writers are saying that Hawke shouldn't have been pro-blood magic or practised it herself which to me makes no sense. Having the choice to make Hawke a blood mage works brilliantly for the story because of how prominently blood magic is featured in the game.  The only thing I thought they got wrong is that no-one commented on Hawke being a blood mage (I really liked that companions commented on your choice of specialisation in Inquisition), it really didn't make sense that Anders and Fenris would be giving Merrill such a hard time about her use of blood magic but then never say anything about Hawke using it.

 

The fact that people on this site are debating whether or not blood magic is evil tells me that it makes perfect sense for the player character to be a blood mage, because obviously people are able to roleplay being a good blood mage. But who ever said Hawke had to be good anyway? One of the two blood mage Hawkes I played as was definitely not a good person, the thing she cared about most was power so blood magic was a perfect fit for her. It even seems like the writers want people to be debating it why else would they write characters like Merrill? So why backtrack with Hawke now? Its probably just because its too difficult to have Hawke say things that will suit everyone.

[SgtSteel91]

One of the previous posters contexualized a friend-Merrill Hawke's disdain for Blood Magic by thinking Hawke hated the 'sacrificing people to summon and control Demons' aspect of Blood Maigc and not necissarily the part where you use your own Blood to power spells, which is what Merrill only uses (she doesnt have the mind control or the drain health from allies skills). Maybe Hawke doesn't even think of friend-Merrill as a Blood Mage, just a Mage who uses Blood Magic sometimes. It's the power hungry a-holes who sacrifice people to summon Demons who Hawke considers as Blood Mages.

[SgtSteel91]

Quote isn't edit, whoops