500 réponses à ce sujet

[Swan Killer]

Really? Because we have been doing that since ME1, both in-game and in cutscenes, and also mentioned in dialogue.

 

Please help me out here, because I don't recall any organic hacking a true AI in the trilogy. ME1-2 only had EDI, a self-aware AI, but even she was  shackled for the 90% of the game. In ME1 we had the Geth, but even they can't be hacked "at least no more than for a few seconds" (that was before they became full AIs in ME3 - if you didn't let them die of course). 

The Overlord was a hybrid AI and it's fair to say, that pretty much he was the one doing all the hacking.

I just simply can't imagine hacking a single Destroyer, let alone the whole Reaper armada. And even if we could hack them to drop their barriers, they still would have outnumbered us by far and would have crushed us with their firepower. 

[GalacticWolf5]

The Overlord was a hybrid AI

Overlord was a hybrid VI, not AI.

[God]

They're functionally the same. Mass Effect just decided to call a lot of AI's VI's for some reason, especially ones that didn't warrant the term or consideration for it. By all functionality, it's an AI, seeing as the base components are a human (a sapient organic intelligence) and the Geth (a sapient gestalt synthetic entity). VI is a misnomer in this scenario.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Geth were networked AI. Legion was an AI platform of networked Geth runtimes. Legion used we, not I. Each Geth runtime was not sapient by itself. It took a number of them networked together to reach sentience and sapience. At lower levels when not networked in sufficient numbers they were not sentient and sapient. It depended upon how many runtimes were networked. Virtual Intelligence - see Mira and Avina as examples in the MEU.

[God]

Gestalt is the key word here.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Gestalt. Geshmalt. They also described the reapers as a gestalt consciousness, but is hamburger alive.

[GalacticWolf5]

VIs and AIs are two very different things. Overlord was a hybrid VI. David was incorporated in the VI program, his mind could not handle it and thats what made Overlord go berserk.

[WizzyWarlock]

You can't just hack an AI, especially one that is eons more advanced than you to the point where its status as an entity might transcend your very understanding of it. Personally, I think it's a cop out to have any kind of hope for conventional victory. Even if you were to miraculously beat the few hundred Reapers over Earth, you still have thousands more of them in the galaxy, and they are going to know what happened, and they are going to be pissed.

Perhaps we can't hack an AI, but perhaps civilizations across time have created a device that would be able to do so. Obviously this would be massive to be able to deal with the complexity of the hack, it could be as large as a space station. See where I'm going here? The Crucible could have given access to the AI that controls the Reapers, rather than giving us the options of Destroy, Synthesis or Control, we can win on our terms, send out Code to drop their shields and allow an all out attack on the Reapers in such a way that we can win. And, just like in the ending cutscenes, the code would bounce through the relays to every Reaper in the Galaxy. Now, just imagine this from War of the Worlds:

 

https://www.youtube....CHHv7ojfiw#t=43

 

But on a Galactic scale. The Krogan on their homeworld, under severe attack, suddenly notice the shields have dropped. The word goes out, a full out offensive commences, the ships of the Armada swoop in back on Earth. And with you standing in the middle of it all, you could orchestrate the counteroffensive from your view of the open sky on the Citadel. Much better ending, if you ask me.

 

Edit: Just a bit more. You could have it appear as though nothing has happened. The Crucible docks, some sort of energy burst goes out but the Reapers seem unaffected. The tone changes, the one hope was a dud, Admiral Hackett stating that the battle is over, hold fire and retreat, someone fires a missile off in frustration.. tracking.. tracking.. massive explosion as it hits the Reaper. Moment of stunned silence, then the comms go crazy as everyone starts issuing orders to assault them now, that the shields are down. Meanwhile, on the Citadel, the starbrat is having a hissy fit, trying to convince you to stop the assault, that the Reapers are special little snowflakes meant to preserve the Galaxy against hokey rogue AI, that you're dooming everyone, blah blah, shut up starbrat, we win.

 

Dammit Bioware, so much missed potential.

[Vazgen]

Perhaps we can't hack an AI, but perhaps civilizations across time have created a device that would be able to do so. Obviously this would be massive to be able to deal with the complexity of the hack, it could be as large as a space station. See where I'm going here? The Crucible could have given access to the AI that controls the Reapers, rather than giving us the options of Destroy, Synthesis or Control, we can win on our terms, send out Code to drop their shields and allow an all out attack on the Reapers in such a way that we can win. And, just like in the ending cutscenes, the code would bounce through the relays to every Reaper in the Galaxy. Now, just imagine this from War of the Worlds:

 

https://www.youtube....CHHv7ojfiw#t=43

 

But on a Galactic scale. The Krogan on their homeworld, under severe attack, suddenly notice the shields have dropped. The word goes out, a full out offensive commences, the ships of the Armada swoop in back on Earth. And with you standing in the middle of it all, you could orchestrate the counteroffensive from your view of the open sky on the Citadel. Much better ending, if you ask me.

What you ask is Independence Day scenario. Not plausible in the case of the Reapers because the Reaper AI will quickly develop countermeasures (that's why it is AI). Allied forces will only have a short window to destroy the Reapers which, even without shields possess a significant firepower and armor. We will be able to inflict heavy casualties on them but not win. Such an attack will require coordinated efforts on all Reaper-attacked worlds and it requires 1) knowledge of what the Crucible will do. No one knows what it does 2) Real-time communication with all worlds which is again, not possible because Reapers have destroyed comm buoys. The only form of communication is quantum entanglement but it is limited, general-to-general and there will be a time lag before the orders reach all the contingents.

[WizzyWarlock]

What you ask is Independence Day scenario. Not plausible in the case of the Reapers because the Reaper AI will quickly develop countermeasures (that's why it is AI). Allied forces will only have a short window to destroy the Reapers which, even without shields possess a significant firepower and armor. We will be able to inflict heavy casualties on them but not win. Such an attack will require coordinated efforts on all Reaper-attacked worlds and it requires 1) knowledge of what the Crucible will do. No one knows what it does 2) Real-time communication with all worlds which is again, not possible because Reapers have destroyed comm buoys. The only form of communication is quantum entanglement but it is limited, general-to-general and there will be a time lag before the orders reach all the contingents.

So instead the Crucible should send out a burst of energy across the entire Galaxy changing everything and everyones DNA instantaneously into a new form of life. Because, you know, that's much more believable. 

 

Mentioning Independence Day, I'd forgotten that's exactly what happened in that movie. But then, it's a pretty normal sci-fi trope really. Impossibly powerful aliens appear, we can't deal with them, something happens or we work something out that makes them less powerful, we blow them to bits. And to be honest, Mass Effect has always been pretty standard sci-fi, it ticks all the usual boxes. In ME1 Sovereign was destroyed when his shields went down and, going against your argument of armor, he dropped like a fly once he was vulnerable, it only took a few missiles to drop him.

[Vazgen]

So instead the Crucible should send out a burst of energy across the entire Galaxy changing everything and everyones DNA instantaneously into a new form of life. Because, you know, that's much more believable. 

 

Mentioning Independence Day, I'd forgotten that's exactly what happened in that movie. But then, it's a pretty normal sci-fi trope really. Impossibly powerful aliens appear, we can't deal with them, something happens or we work something out that makes them less powerful, we blow them to bits. And to be honest, Mass Effect has always been pretty standard sci-fi, it ticks all the usual boxes. In ME1 Sovereign was destroyed when his shields went down and, going against your argument of armor, he dropped like a fly once he was vulnerable, it only took a few missiles to drop him.

I'm not saying it's more believable, just that both are pretty unrealistic (OK, Synthesis is more). My view on the endings always was that they have good idea and writing but fail at its execution. Energy beam, child, shooting the tube, changing the DNA are all parts of the execution.

 

Regarding Sovereign there was an entire Alliance fleet shooting at it simultaneously

[God]

VIs and AIs are two very different things. Overlord was a hybrid VI. David was incorporated in the VI program, his mind could not handle it and thats what made Overlord go berserk.

 

They're really not. It's just some arbitrary idea that Bioware put into the series to distinguish between highly advanced software interface systems and full on synthetic intelligence. And in this case, the definition of VI does not apply: I will tell you why.

 

The term hybrid VI is a misnomer, as I said. You're putting a sapient organic into it (when the entity in question is already fairly sapient already) to get a hybridized intelligence that is well more advanced and intelligent than a VI. Seems like a back-step to put a human intelligence into the Geth collective and then end up calling it a VI. 

 

In fact, I think the only reason they're calling it a VI is because an AI (which it is) sounds too scary and dangerous.

[God]

Yeah no, I don't support conventional victory of any kind. And I don't support an Independence Day scenario. I see where you're going and I don't support it at all.

 

I like the concept of the endings as they are, and beyond some technical changes such as the execution and narrative clean-up, I wouldn't want to change the endings much. 

 

As well, the sheer scale of your offensive is impossible to track. A few minutes or hours is not enough time to beat even the Reapers at Earth. Sovereign was destroyed (seemingly) rapidly because it had multiple fleets firing on it at once when its barriers were disabled. At best, you'll buy yourself maybe a few more hours with a handful more of destroyed Reapers while the rest wait, recharge, and continue their pulverizing of resistance unabated. Nobody on the ground is going to have the firepower to take out the two kilometer Reapers. Well, maybe the Krogan with their fission bombs, but they'd have likely exhausted them quickly while doing little more than killing their own planet even more.

 

Honestly, I'm entirely against any kind of 'victory on our own terms' idea. If you can't win with the tools at your disposal, you don't deserve to win in the first place. 

[CrimsonArgie]

They should have put much more emphasis on the whole "assemble a fleet" thing, instead of just turning every asset into a number and then forcing you to fill a blue bar. In my opinion, they should have added quite a few side missions as soon as you landed on Earth, across different cities/scenarios. Each one would have a different side objective, and completing them would make the final London mission easier. You could, of course, go into the London sequence right away if you wanted to. In each mission you would have access to a "reinforcements selector", like in DA:Origins final mission, and depending on who you had recruited, you would have a bigger chance of surviving. Not only you would have access to armies, but also to some of your former party members and the rest of your assets. 

 

If you did REALLY bad during the game, then those missions would be almost impossible, and instead of dying, you would just fail them (like forcing you to evacuate), so the London mission would get harder and harder. I'm talking about almost endless enemy spawns in those cases, so no matter how good you were, the game would "punish you" for not recruiting enough people (giving more meaning to the "collecting assets" feature). Worst case scenario, the final mission would be so hard that you would never get to the crucible, and the game would end with the Reapers winning. On the contrary, the "best" ending would be you getting into the beam unharmed with the rest of your party, and then destroying the Reapers (and surviving). The "middle ground" would be almost the same as the current ending sequence, sacrificing yourself to put and end to the war (still having the choice of going destroy, synthesis or control). There would be some small variations, with some party members/assets dying depending on how you did through the mission (like the Suicide Mission). 

 

I know that to correctly create something like this, they would have needed to change quite a bit of gameplay features, such as making assets a bit harder to get, branching some of the main plot decisions a bit more, etc. That would prevent people from getting an overwhelming amount of points just by doing exploration missions on random planets, and putting more emphasis on which decisions you made regarding your party members and how you did during each of the main missions. 

[God]

I could get behind that provided that there was a trade-off. The more missions you accomplish, the weaker your fleet becomes as the Reapers slowly plow their way through it. If you take too much time doing preparations, the fleet gets rendered ineffective, and you fail. Collecting more assets in space provides you with more sustainability for your fleet, allowing you to do more missions.

 

I just had a brainstorm on this mechanic.

 

Same with more assets on the ground. The more you have the stronger your ground force will be in London. Specific assets of particular value would unlike certain perks (intelligence from the Salarian spy fleet, Geth infantry lines, Cerberus information causing temporary damage to Reaper control of husks, Leviathan, etc.) As well, your squadmates lives would be affected by the missions: You could rush to London and have an intact fleet that can protect the Crucible from damage, while sacrificing your squadmates and heavy assets to get to the Conduit, or you could build your strength on Earth on the ground by taking out key defenses and making it easier for your squadmates and ground forces while whittling away your fleet and the Crucible's defense. It would have a certain bar system that could determine how well the Crucible is going to function. Collecting enough assets gives you a longer endurance. As well, as I said, the perks from certain assets might grant you a benefit in space or on the ground or inform you about a backdoor way to perform a mission to spare some power (since I'd also have ground missions cost a certain amount of power to perform). And it wouldn't be perfect either. There's no way to save everybody, but you could have enough power to get your squadmates through safely while ensuring the Crucible is functioning optimally. That would be the 'best' way to get to the final stage of the ending.

[Memnon]

I could get behind that provided that there was a trade-off. The more missions you accomplish, the weaker your fleet becomes as the Reapers slowly plow their way through it. If you take too much time doing preparations, the fleet gets rendered ineffective, and you fail. Collecting more assets in space provides you with more sustainability for your fleet, allowing you to do more missions.

 

I just had a brainstorm on this mechanic.

 

Same with more assets on the ground. The more you have the stronger your ground force will be in London. Specific assets of particular value would unlike certain perks (intelligence from the Salarian spy fleet, Geth infantry lines, Cerberus information causing temporary damage to Reaper control of husks, Leviathan, etc.) As well, your squadmates lives would be affected by the missions: You could rush to London and have an intact fleet that can protect the Crucible from damage, while sacrificing your squadmates and heavy assets to get to the Conduit, or you could build your strength on Earth on the ground by taking out key defenses and making it easier for your squadmates and ground forces while whittling away your fleet and the Crucible's defense. It would have a certain bar system that could determine how well the Crucible is going to function. Collecting enough assets gives you a longer endurance. As well, as I said, the perks from certain assets might grant you a benefit in space or on the ground or inform you about a backdoor way to perform a mission to spare some power (since I'd also have ground missions cost a certain amount of power to perform). And it wouldn't be perfect either. There's no way to save everybody, but you could have enough power to get your squadmates through safely while ensuring the Crucible is functioning optimally. That would be the 'best' way to get to the final stage of the ending.

 

I like this thought, as well as CrimsonArgie's. I think the "conventional victory" is really a semantics issue at this point. Imagine being able to speak with Harbinger in person and talk him down a la the Master in Fallout. Maybe you convince half, or a third of the Reapers to join your cause by virtue of your actions in reconciling the Geth and Quarians, etc. I think the fact that a lot of the ideas in this thread alone are far superior to what we got in game is telling in itself ...

[dreamgazer]

Ugh. Can't express enough how glad I am that Captain Space Jesus didn't persuade the billion-year-old mecha-Cthulhu to flip allegiances or abandon their programming.  

[von uber]

Speaking of America's favourite carpenter, Synthesis is a bit of a blood sacrifice isn't it.
How very... Pagan.

[Valmar]

I think not, the beam connecting Crucible to the Citadel is not visible from space either, but a flashing light is visible, same with Citadel to Earth connection.

 

Actually in the screens provided by the Extended Cut we clearly see a view of the Citadel from space with its blue laser beam thingy connecting it to London.

 

 

Really? Because we have been doing that since ME1, both in-game and in cutscenes, and also mentioned in dialogue.

 

The Geth aren't actually AI. The closest we've ever gotten to hacking AI is the shackles placed on EDI and EVA. Though I'd hardly call that a 'hack' since they were specifically built that way.

 

The Geth were networked AI. Legion was an AI platform of networked Geth runtimes. Legion used we, not I. Each Geth runtime was not sapient by itself. It took a number of them networked together to reach sentience and sapience. At lower levels when not networked in sufficient numbers they were not sentient and sapient. It depended upon how many runtimes were networked. Virtual Intelligence - see Mira and Avina as examples in the MEU.

 

The geth were networked VI that, while formed together, reached the complexity of AI. Otherwise you're right.

 

 

 

 

The argument brought up that "VI and AI are the same" is irrelevant. In the Mass Effect universe there is clearly a distinction between AI and VI, regardless of how you feel the classification should be made. By the lore standards the geth are technically VI. They reach complexity and "AI-tier" by linking together. Even then, they're not true AI, not by ME standards anyway.

[themikefest]

Actually in the screens provided by the Extended Cut we clearly see a view of the Citadel from space with its blue laser beam thingy connecting it to London.

Wonder why we couldn't see it before we get to London?

The Geth aren't actually AI. The closest we've ever gotten to hacking AI is the shackles placed on EDI and EVA. Though I'd hardly call that a 'hack' since they were specifically built that way.

Would CAT6 being able to disable edi from the Normandy be called hacking?

[Vazgen]

I prefer to think of EC slides as a "vision of future" not its perfect depiction. We don't see the beam in real time cutscenes and I think it's a more correct visualization.

[Valmar]

Wonder why we couldn't see it before we get to London?

 

I have no idea. This isn't the first time the story was inconsistent with itself. Regardless, we DO see the beam in the screenshots. My best guess would be to parrot what Orikon put forth:

 

 

It is possible that the beam was overlooked by the cinematic department. Looking at how rushed the ending is,I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

 

 

Would CAT6 being able to disable edi from the Normandy be called hacking?

 

To be fair the story in general is rather inconsistent with Edi. Such as her signal being jumbled on the rannoch mission for some reason. Or being "truly alive (again)" in synthesis. Or Joker being worried about her 'safety'. Or everything in the Citadel DLC.

 

At any rate, I wouldn't call it hacking since Edi still had control of the platform. Parts of the ship were (somehow) disabled from her but she was still clearly herself. Remember Edi isn't REALLY in the bot, shes just controlling it from the Normandy's core. If she was hacked then the platform would had also been hacked.

 

Is it a perfect answer? No. Don't blame me for it though, Citadel DLC is just a mess as far as the lore is concerned.

 

 

I prefer to think of EC slides as a "vision of future" not its perfect depiction. We don't see the beam in real time cutscenes and I think it's a more correct visualization.

 

Possible. The lore supports both, since it provides both examples. Though I'd argue evidence of existence overrules evidence of nonexistence - if that makes sense. Just one of the many holes in the ending, really. Lol.

 

 

Word of the day: Inconsistent.

[God]

Speaking of America's favourite carpenter, Synthesis is a bit of a blood sacrifice isn't it.
How very... Pagan.

 

Really man? Do you really have to make a jibe on the States?

 

Hope you guys enjoy Nigel Farage.

[God]

Would CAT6 being able to disable edi from the Normandy be called hacking?

 

No. That would be unplugging the computer.

[God]

I like this thought, as well as CrimsonArgie's. I think the "conventional victory" is really a semantics issue at this point. Imagine being able to speak with Harbinger in person and talk him down a la the Master in Fallout. Maybe you convince half, or a third of the Reapers to join your cause by virtue of your actions in reconciling the Geth and Quarians, etc. I think the fact that a lot of the ideas in this thread alone are far superior to what we got in game is telling in itself ...

 

Uh, I'd rather not have any kind of ability to talk Reapers down. As well, it's simply not possible. They're like hard-wired to think that way. It would be like debating a person who is a religious fundamentalist. They are right, you are wrong, and there is no possible way to reason with them. You have a better chance of trying to dig through reinforced concrete.