Really man? Do you really have to make a jibe on the States?
Hope you guys enjoy Nigel Farage.
Well it's true isn't it? A lot of themes of ME3 do chime with Christianity, which pinched a lot from Pagan religions.
Regards Farage, if he gets elected then he will be an MP. Nothing more.
They're really not. It's just some arbitrary idea that Bioware put into the series to distinguish between highly advanced software interface systems and full on synthetic intelligence. And in this case, the definition of VI does not apply: I will tell you why.
The term hybrid VI is a misnomer, as I said. You're putting a sapient organic into it (when the entity in question is already fairly sapient already) to get a hybridized intelligence that is well more advanced and intelligent than a VI. Seems like a back-step to put a human intelligence into the Geth collective and then end up calling it a VI.
In fact, I think the only reason they're calling it a VI is because an AI (which it is) sounds too scary and dangerous.
Well it's true isn't it? A lot of themes of ME3 do chime with Christianity, which pinched a lot from Pagan religions.
Regards Farage, if he gets elected then he will be an MP. Nothing more.
Funny how a religion that began in the Middle East and caused multiple holy wars in Europe is somehow associated with America.
I like the concept of the endings as they are, and beyond some technical changes such as the execution and narrative clean-up, I wouldn't want to change the endings much.
I'm the opposite, I think the whole Catalyst AI who controls the Reapers because he doesn't want synthetics to kill people so uses synthetics to kill them all so they don't get killed by synthetics, and then giving the choice of Destroy, Control or Synthesis is just the most ridiculous, out of place ending I've ever seen in a narrative. Realistically, sticking to the themes of all 3 games up to that point, it should have been a conventional victory. If Destroy was the only option and the Reapers weren't controlled by some crazed AI that has pulled you into some weird dreamscape, I might have been a little more behind it, but adding space magic at the end just made me want to throw the damn game out the window.
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
I'm the opposite, I think the whole Catalyst AI who controls the Reapers because he doesn't want synthetics to kill people so uses synthetics to kill them all so they don't get killed by synthetics, and then giving the choice of Destroy, Control or Synthesis is just the most ridiculous, out of place ending I've ever seen in a narrative. Realistically, sticking to the themes of all 3 games up to that point, it should have been a conventional victory. If Destroy was the only option and the Reapers weren't controlled by some crazed AI that has pulled you into some weird dreamscape, I might have been a little more behind it, but adding space magic at the end just made me want to throw the damn game out the window.
you are not alone I'm pretty sure 90% of all the players (not only here but in general) agree with you
people may have moved on from ME3's shitty ending but they certainly have not forgotten
No matter which forums I go people still make fun of it its sad that the trilogy will be remembered for that garbage ending
I suppose Casey & Mac should be happy they got "Speculations from everyone" LOL
some of the worst writing I have ever seen in any medium the ideas were interesting (like controlling the reapers, synthesis was **** though) but the whole execution (starchild) beyond stupid
Well it's true isn't it? A lot of themes of ME3 do chime with Christianity, which pinched a lot from Pagan religions.
Regards Farage, if he gets elected then he will be an MP. Nothing more.
That may be the case here, but you really didn't need to make the jibe on us here.
I don't know, he is pretty popular... Who knows, he might even have his eyes on PM. He certainly seems to have the support of the British public. Pretty scary, that guy.
Maybe you should read the codes entries again, you'll se that they're both really different. AIs can make choices on their own, VIs can't. AIs can learn on their own, VIs can't. AIs can do whatever they want, VIs can't. AIs are self-aware, VIs are not.
Hybrid VI is not a misnomer. Yes they're putting a sapient organic in a VI program, but that doesnt change the program, it's still a VI but now using an organic to accomplish its task. That's why its called a hybrid VI. Its just a human and a VI together. Also , they're not putting a human intelligence into the Geth collective, they're putting him in a VI programmed to interface with the Geth and control them.
I know the distinction, and I'll take my own understanding of the difference between highly advanced software and a living, sapient intelligence over yours. It's irrelevant to this discussion.
And yes, it is. Because, simply put, it's not a VI. He's being programmed to interface directly with the Geth, communicating with and controlling them. That should not be possible for a VI. And you're vastly underestimating the understanding of the terms sapience and sentience if you're ascribing a human to being under the control of a VI. The human element supercedes the virtual one, and it is David who is interfacing with the Geth (who themselves are gestalt AI). As such, I do believe you are not truly aware of what you're talking about here.
I'm the opposite, I think the whole Catalyst AI who controls the Reapers because he doesn't want synthetics to kill people so uses synthetics to kill them all so they don't get killed by synthetics, and then giving the choice of Destroy, Control or Synthesis is just the most ridiculous, out of place ending I've ever seen in a narrative. Realistically, sticking to the themes of all 3 games up to that point, it should have been a conventional victory. If Destroy was the only option and the Reapers weren't controlled by some crazed AI that has pulled you into some weird dreamscape, I might have been a little more behind it, but adding space magic at the end just made me want to throw the damn game out the window.
Over time (I used to be quite anti-ending, now I'm considerably more pro-ending), I've come to realize that the general understanding of the Catalyst and its mandate here makes a case that is underlined by an appeal to common sense: As in, people like to call out how the Catalyst chooses to enact its own mandate in a somewhat paradoxical manner, using synthetic machines to periodically purge life from the galaxy to prevent organic races from creating synthetic machines that will inevitably purge those races from the galaxy.
The difference is that (and yes, heavy speculation here I admit) the Catalyst is a so-called 'meta-stable' intelligence that has transcended the issue by understanding the concept of restraint. It has a mandate to fulfill, and that is to prevent the permanent extermination of all organic species in the galaxy. The Catalyst does not permanently destroy everything. It purposefully leaves organic races with the ability to recover to repopulate the galaxy, reach the zenith of their culture, then bring them down to prevent them from developing their own life that they would inevitably lose control of. Now, you may argue that this was the case of the Leviathan's race. And technically, you'd be correct. However, that race was sufficiently advanced enough that the AI they had created was able to recognize an inherent flaw in the mandate of the Leviathan's, and was able to circumvent this by creating the cycles to prevent the permanent annihilation of life. It's why I'm able to understand and even technically agree with the Catalyst's mandate; it's perfectly logical and rational. The issue is that the mandate in question is irrelevant and presently incompatible with my goal. While I do agree and understand the Catalyst, that does not mean that I agree with the present actions of the Reapers it leads. Their current goal is incompatible with the success, prosperity, and survival of my own society and goals. So I set aside the mandate as a problem of thought for now to be dealt with at a later date and solve my current, much more pressing issue of defeating the Reapers and insuring that we have a future to face the Catalyst's mandate at a more convenient time. Granted, I wish I had the ability in the game to vocalize this. It's why, while I've come to terms with the ending and its overall picture, it's still a narrative and executional mess that sucked donkey balls.
As well, I honestly do believe your stance belies a lack of critical thinking on your part regarding the themes of the series (which are not obligated to be 'fulfilled', so to speak, by the ending). Perhaps the ending was unforeseen, but I no longer believe that it was out of place. It was very much out-of-the-blue and alien, but I believe that was the point. You're finally seeing the accumulation of all your efforts and find that the entire issue is based on the the blue and orange morality of an unforeseen entity that is not and does not need to beholden to your own views and ideas of the themes.
I'm not trying to insult you (and I apologize ahead of time if this seems to be the case here). The themes of a series are a metaphysical recognition of, well, themes by the external audience (the player), not an ingrained part of the narrative or lore, nor are they physically manifested or existent in the setting or the lore. The themes exist outside the games, not within them, and we the audience view said themes, not the characters and agents of the narrative.
On the other hand the setting and the lore are all internal and physically manifested within the narrative universe; and this lore has decreed that the Reapers are indeed far too powerful of us to even contemplate winning a large-scale confrontation with them. There is, quite simply, utterly no chance in hell of us ever being able to beat the Reapers. They're simply too powerful and too advanced.
you are not alone I'm pretty sure 90% of all the players (not only here but in general) agree with you
people may have moved on from ME3's shitty ending but they certainly have not forgotten
No matter which forums I go people still make fun of it its sad that the trilogy will be remembered for that garbage ending
I suppose Casey & Mac should be happy they got "Speculations from everyone" LOL
some of the worst writing I have ever seen in any medium the ideas were interesting (like controlling the reapers, synthesis was **** though) but the whole execution (starchild) beyond stupid
It's a lot less than 90%. Granted, people aren't going to think about it as much as we do, but for them, it was a good game with an ending that sucked. Most won't care about the series in general.
And if you think it's some of the worst writing you've ever seen, you've clearly never been exposed to much fiction. Especially fan-fiction.
Clearly, this is going nowhere. I'm showing you the facts and you're showing me nothing.I know the distinction, and I'll take my own understanding of the difference between highly advanced software and a living, sapient intelligence over yours. It's irrelevant to this discussion.
And yes, it is. Because, simply put, it's not a VI. He's being programmed to interface directly with the Geth, communicating with and controlling them. That should not be possible for a VI. And you're vastly underestimating the understanding of the terms sapience and sentience if you're ascribing a human to being under the control of a VI. The human element supercedes the virtual one, and it is David who is interfacing with the Geth (who themselves are gestalt AI). As such, I do believe you are not truly aware of what you're talking about here.
The difference is that (and yes, heavy speculation here I admit) the Catalyst is a so-called 'meta-stable' intelligence that has transcended the issue by understanding the concept of restraint. It has a mandate to fulfill, and that is to prevent the permanent extermination of all organic species in the galaxy. The Catalyst does not permanently destroy everything. It purposefully leaves organic races with the ability to recover to repopulate the galaxy, reach the zenith of their culture, then bring them down to prevent them from developing their own life that they would inevitably lose control of.
I do understand what it's trying to achieve, but it's basically wiping out entire civilizations in its attempt to fix things. I know they're placed into Reaper form, but all Reapers are essentially the same. If the minds, thoughts, whatever you want to call it, of the civilizations were apparent in each of the Reapers, and they could control the construct they've been placed into and make their own choices, then that would be fine. But they can't. All Reapers are just machines full of civilization soup with no more free will than the rest of them. So the Catalyst is basically ordering these machines to go around, turn a civilization into soup and pour that soup into a new Reaper shell. And it does that every 50,000 years. What is it actually achieving here? Nothing. It even admits as much, but it keeps doing it over and over and over again. It stopped trying to make a better way long ago and just continues with these never ending cycles that achieve nothing.
It sets up these civilizations, sends them down a predetermined path, introduces them to mass effect technology, places them exactly where it wants them to be, so when they reach an advanced stage that the Catalyst pretty much forced them to reach, it can say, "Ah ha! See? I told you it would happen!", and then turn them all into goo. It's just ridiculous. If the Catalyst was presented as some sort of insane AI then I might be able to understand it, but we were actually supposed to believe it's bulls**t as gospel, that it's absolutely correct, that it's not doing anything wrong and we should take one of its three choices to try and make things somehow better.
It's just one of the worst written pieces of narrative. For an otherwise amazing series to end in such a way I think is just insulting. Not just to us, the players, but to the people who put so much time and effort into creating those three games. The series deserved better than that ending and I'm sure the majority of people agree.
What it should be doing is wiping out the synthetics that the civilizations create, then destroying technology so it sends that civilization back to the dark ages.
Would it wipe the brains and hard-drives of civilizations, too? Because they still possess the knowledge.
Would it wipe the brains and hard-drives of civilizations, too? Because they still possess the knowledge.
I deleted that part out of my post as I didn't really want to give alternative options. The whole idea is bad enough without arguing about another idea that's bad too. But to answer the question - hard drives are technology, thus they wouldn't exist anymore. The brains.. not sure. They can indoctrinate people, I'm sure they can work something out.
I deleted that part out of my post as I didn't really want to give alternative options. The whole idea is bad enough without arguing about another idea that's bad too. But to answer the question - hard drives are technology, thus they wouldn't exist anymore. The brains.. not sure. They can indoctrinate people, I'm sure they can work something out.
You don't think they're going to leave some databanks lying around? ME1's full of Prothean data discs.
Clarify "work something out". Is the galaxy going to be full of indoctrinated servants? What are the parameters of this memory wipe? Are they not capable of using tools? Because that's where technology starts.
Over time (I used to be quite anti-ending, now I'm considerably more pro-ending), I've come to realize that the general understanding of the Catalyst and its mandate here makes a case that is underlined by an appeal to common sense: As in, people like to call out how the Catalyst chooses to enact its own mandate in a somewhat paradoxical manner, using synthetic machines to periodically purge life from the galaxy to prevent organic races from creating synthetic machines that will inevitably purge those races from the galaxy.
The difference is that (and yes, heavy speculation here I admit) the Catalyst is a so-called 'meta-stable' intelligence that has transcended the issue by understanding the concept of restraint. It has a mandate to fulfill, and that is to prevent the permanent extermination of all organic species in the galaxy. The Catalyst does not permanently destroy everything. It purposefully leaves organic races with the ability to recover to repopulate the galaxy, reach the zenith of their culture, then bring them down to prevent them from developing their own life that they would inevitably lose control of. Now, you may argue that this was the case of the Leviathan's race. And technically, you'd be correct. However, that race was sufficiently advanced enough that the AI they had created was able to recognize an inherent flaw in the mandate of the Leviathan's, and was able to circumvent this by creating the cycles to prevent the permanent annihilation of life. It's why I'm able to understand and even technically agree with the Catalyst's mandate; it's perfectly logical and rational. The issue is that the mandate in question is irrelevant and presently incompatible with my goal. While I do agree and understand the Catalyst, that does not mean that I agree with the present actions of the Reapers it leads. Their current goal is incompatible with the success, prosperity, and survival of my own society and goals. So I set aside the mandate as a problem of thought for now to be dealt with at a later date and solve my current, much more pressing issue of defeating the Reapers and insuring that we have a future to face the Catalyst's mandate at a more convenient time. Granted, I wish I had the ability in the game to vocalize this. It's why, while I've come to terms with the ending and its overall picture, it's still a narrative and executional mess that sucked donkey balls.
As well, I honestly do believe your stance belies a lack of critical thinking on your part regarding the themes of the series (which are not obligated to be 'fulfilled', so to speak, by the ending). Perhaps the ending was unforeseen, but I know longer believe that it was out of place. It was very much out-of-the-blue and alien, but I believe that was the point. You're finally seeing the accumulation of all your efforts and find that the entire issue is based on the the blue and orange morality of an unforeseen entity that is not and does not need to beholden to your own views and ideas of the themes.
I'm not trying to insult you (and I apologize ahead of time if this seems to be the case here). The themes of a series are a metaphysical recognition of, well, themes by the external audience (the player), not an ingrained part of the narrative or lore, nor are they physically manifested or existent in the setting or the lore. The themes exist outside the games, not within them, and we the audience view said themes, not the characters and agents of the narrative.
On the other hand the setting and the lore are all internal and physically manifested within the narrative universe; and this lore has decreed that the Reapers are indeed far too powerful of us to even contemplate winning a large-scale confrontation with them. There is, quite simply, utterly no chance in hell of us ever being able to beat the Reapers. They're simply too powerful and too advanced.
Come now, if you are going to give the endings a pass with a defense of them being out-of-the-blue, alien and unforseen, you have to concede that actually talking the Catalyst down would be an interesting twist. I'm not saying that would be a great end, but I'd take it over what I received.
In any case, I am not as forgiving of the endings as you are - I envy you, in fact, hah. The combination of poor writing, in-you-face symbolism and ... dreck of that final sequence still irritates me. I've been playing games since the Atari 2600 days, almost 40 years, and have been reading science fiction and fantasy for just about the same amount of time, and this is the most I've disliked a game/story ending. And it really isn't that it was the worst I've ever seen, it's just that ME deserved so much better ...
Come now, if you are going to give the endings a pass with a defense of them being out-of-the-blue, alien and unforseen, you have to concede that actually talking the Catalyst down would be an interesting twist. I'm not saying that would be a great end, but I'd take it over what I received.
In any case, I am not as forgiving of the endings as you are - I envy you, in fact, hah. The combination of poor writing, in-you-face symbolism and ... dreck of that final sequence still irritates me. I've been playing games since the Atari 2600 days, almost 40 years, and have been reading science fiction and fantasy for just about the same amount of time, and this is the most I've disliked a game/story ending. And it really isn't that it was the worst I've ever seen, it's just that ME deserved so much better ...
I liked the ending and find it inspiring. Whatever bad writing is simply the same bad writing I've been forced to accept for all 3 games, as well as other Bioware games. To be honest, from a writing standpoint, I always felt the writing was a 6/10. Passable or good, but still lacked development, had issues, and of course, plotholes. They're good at writing characters, but that's it. I think many players are just less forgiving about the ending, because none allow Shepard to be alive with his crew, besides Destroy, which only teases his survival, but doesn't officially confirm he'll be around for his LI (which I don't understand why everyone assumes the worse). If all the current endings had Shepard in a slide show alive and well, half of the hate would disappear. There'd still be criticism, but no different then what ME2's ending got with the Giant Contra boss fight.
I liked the ending and find it inspiring. Whatever bad writing is simply the same bad writing I've been forced to accept for all 3 games, as well as other Bioware games. To be honest, from a writing standpoint, I always felt the writing was a 6/10. Passable or good, but still lacked development, had issues, and of course, plotholes. They're good at writing characters, but that's it. I think many players are just less forgiving about the ending, because none allow Shepard to be alive with his crew, besides Destroy, which only teases his survival, but doesn't officially confirm he'll be around for his LI (which I don't understand why everyone assumes the worse). If all the current endings had Shepard in a slide show alive and well, half of the hate would disappear. There'd still be criticism, but no different then what ME2's ending got with the Giant Contra boss fight.
Strongly disagree - it's not that Shepard died. In fact, mine lived. I simply have a different opinion of the writing. As I've said before, the symbolism was over the top and clunky, and borderline insulting. That they even had to make the EC is a tacit admission of the ending's inadequacy, but I don't feel the EC improved it any. Shepard dies because of writing ... the only ending that really makes sense to me with Shepard dying is Control. I can actually understand losing his corporeal form to become the Catalyst, and I can almost begrudgingly admit that going down with the Citadel in low-ish EMS Destroy is a heroic way to go in a blaze of ... something. But Synthesis is just ... blech. There is no defense of that appalling end, in my mind. There was justified criticism of the boss fight in ME2, criticism of DA2, criticism of ME1 ... everything Bioware does is criticized by somebody. That doesn't mean they should just give up on boss fights and suicide missions, and give us a RGB "Heroic Sacrifice™" just for the sake of it. It felt like they (the writers) just kind of gave up at the end ...
Overlord was a hybrid VI, not AI.
I guess BW is a bit inconsistent with these kinda things. 2:20
I guess BW is a bit inconsistent with these kinda things. 2:20
I guess so. Happens sometimes. But that doesn't change anything, Overlord is still a hybrid VI.
Not the first little inconsistency. Back during ME2, Legion says Shepard spoke with Sovereign on Ilos, but he actually spoke to it on Virmire.
Perhaps we can't hack an AI, but perhaps civilizations across time have created a device that would be able to do so. Obviously this would be massive to be able to deal with the complexity of the hack, it could be as large as a space station. See where I'm going here? The Crucible could have given access to the AI that controls the Reapers, rather than giving us the options of Destroy, Synthesis or Control, we can win on our terms, send out Code to drop their shields and allow an all out attack on the Reapers in such a way that we can win. And, just like in the ending cutscenes, the code would bounce through the relays to every Reaper in the Galaxy. Now, just imagine this from War of the Worlds:
https://www.youtube....CHHv7ojfiw#t=43
But on a Galactic scale. The Krogan on their homeworld, under severe attack, suddenly notice the shields have dropped. The word goes out, a full out offensive commences, the ships of the Armada swoop in back on Earth. And with you standing in the middle of it all, you could orchestrate the counteroffensive from your view of the open sky on the Citadel. Much better ending, if you ask me.
Edit: Just a bit more. You could have it appear as though nothing has happened. The Crucible docks, some sort of energy burst goes out but the Reapers seem unaffected. The tone changes, the one hope was a dud, Admiral Hackett stating that the battle is over, hold fire and retreat, someone fires a missile off in frustration.. tracking.. tracking.. massive explosion as it hits the Reaper. Moment of stunned silence, then the comms go crazy as everyone starts issuing orders to assault them now, that the shields are down. Meanwhile, on the Citadel, the starbrat is having a hissy fit, trying to convince you to stop the assault, that the Reapers are special little snowflakes meant to preserve the Galaxy against hokey rogue AI, that you're dooming everyone, blah blah, shut up starbrat, we win.
Dammit Bioware, so much missed potential.
Not the first little inconsistency. Back during ME2, Legion says Shepard spoke with Sovereign on Ilos, but he actually spoke to it on Virmire.
Yep. That and many other things that have been posted in "the little things that you just discovered" thread
http://forum.bioware...6#entry17583726
Clearly, this is going nowhere. I'm showing you the facts and you're showing me nothing.
It's also clear you don't fully understand project Overlord. Maybe go read some stuff about it.
That being said, I won't bother giving you further arguments.
And what is being said by you and your sources isn't consistent with the lore that you're trying to follow. Your facts are oxymorons. Namely because BW decided to no longer discern a difference between an AI and a VI as the series went on. They essentially held the same meaning by the end.
And yes, I'm fairly certain I understand most things pertaining to this much better than you do, as well as likely having a much more informed view of the overall issue than you.
The fact that the culmination for an entire trilogy played out over 1 poorly designed mission was annoying enough, then there was no "explanation" until the extended cut. Yet you have the N7 missions that have barely any narrative value still in the game.
You spend most of the game biding your time, building forces and taking loses on a galactic scale, while you stall for your chance at a colossal battle with the resources you have gathered then don't get any representation of that* because the all or nothing final push is blindsided and stripped of its urgency by saying goodbyes halfway through a small scale poorly laid out infantry battle. It even has time for a speech - while people are still fighting in orbit.
Priority; Earth could never satisfy the apex of a multi game franchise on its own. It needed more than one mission to do this.
*aside from a few seconds of cut scene
I guess so. Happens sometimes. But that doesn't change anything, Overlord is still a hybrid VI.
Not the first little inconsistency. Back during ME2, Legion says Shepard spoke with Sovereign on Ilos, but he actually spoke to it on Virmire.
And with said inconsistency, it is functionally an AI. If it were a VI in the technical sense presented in the lore, it would be capable of overriding an individual organic mindset or overtaking a gestalt artificial intelligence in processing power. Which is why it's not a VI in the same nomenclature as presented in the lore.
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