500 réponses à ce sujet

[GalacticWolf5]

Believe whatever you want to believe, I'll stick to believing the facts.

[God]

I question said facts for technical inaccuracy and inconsistency. I believe in actual, physical definitions, not lazy writing.

[WizzyWarlock]

I think many players are just less forgiving about the ending, because none allow Shepard to be alive with his crew, besides Destroy, which only teases his survival, but doesn't officially confirm he'll be around for his LI (which I don't understand why everyone assumes the worse).

In a way, you're right, but not in the way you think. I don't have a problem with Shepard dying - in fact, I had pretty much expected it to end with a sacrifice as that's the usual way for a hero to be remembered. "He gave his life so we may live on.". What I have a problem with is the way it was presented. It felt to me like Shepard just gave up, he didn't bother arguing with the Catalyst, he didn't get suspicious about its motives - despite it being the thing controlling the Reapers - he just nodded, said, "I... don't know.", then killed himself on the promise - from the Reaper Overlord - that this would fix things. 

 

Sorry, but my character, the one I'd spent 3 games defining, who was out to destroy the Reapers and couldn't trust a word they said, especially knowing they could indoctrinate you into thinking what they want you to think.. he doesn't give up and kill himself because the Reaper boss says it would help. Before the EC I just looked at the screen in disbelief, stunned that Bioware expected me to take everything the Catalyst was saying at face value. Even with the EC it's no better, but at least Shepard asks a few questions now.

[wright1978]

I liked the ending and find it inspiring. Whatever bad writing is simply the same bad writing I've been forced to accept for all 3 games, as well as other Bioware games. To be honest, from a writing standpoint, I always felt the writing was a 6/10. Passable or good, but still lacked development, had issues, and of course, plotholes. They're good at writing characters, but that's it. I think many players are just less forgiving about the ending, because none allow Shepard to be alive with his crew, besides Destroy, which only teases his survival, but doesn't officially confirm he'll be around for his LI (which I don't understand why everyone assumes the worse). If all the current endings had Shepard in a slide show alive and well, half of the hate would disappear. There'd still be criticism, but no different then what ME2's ending got with the Giant Contra boss fight.

Treating Shep lives scenario as a joke(even after EC) was just the extra insult on top of the ridiculously awful ending. The hate wouldn't have disappeared as it's the worst hole ridden piece of professional writing and completely unrewarding from a player standpoint too. slide show itself was very poor and only received positivity because something that poor was better than what was there before.

[God]

Come now, if you are going to give the endings a pass with a defense of them being out-of-the-blue, alien and unforseen, you have to concede that actually talking the Catalyst down would be an interesting twist. I'm not saying that would be a great end, but I'd take it over what I received.

 

In any case, I am not as forgiving of the endings as you are - I envy you, in fact, hah. The combination of poor writing, in-you-face symbolism and ... dreck of that final sequence still irritates me. I've been playing games since the Atari 2600 days, almost 40 years, and have been reading science fiction and fantasy for just about the same amount of time, and this is the most I've disliked a game/story ending. And it really isn't that it was the worst I've ever seen, it's just that ME deserved so much better ...

 

I think talking the Catalyst down would serve no narrative purpose and would invalidate the who portion of his brief explanation of the mandate to you. I believe you have 3 options to choose from, and that's it. And he's not the one who made them. He's just telling you what you have available. You made the options yourselves.

 

Oh I'm with you, I still identify with the anti-ending crowd to an extent. You're right of course, the ending was a technical and narrative wreck filled with shoddy writing, poor execution, and just plain lazy work. While I agree with the overall concept of the ending and the Catalyst's mandate, they could have and should have done a much better job with it. There is a lot of space magic involved with it, I'll admit, some of which does defy explanation. As well, the writing is presented as very hamfisted, and there are inconsistencies with the explanations of some choices from the Catalyst, namely how it gives you two separate definitions for the term 'synthetic' between the descriptions for Destroy and Synthesis. 

 

However, poor, sloppy execution does not mean that the concept itself was derisively bad.

 

As well, despite my... resignated acceptance of the ending (or is it resigned?) and even my ability to embrace the overall concept and 'the point' of the ending, that does not mean that I wouldn't rather have had something different.

 

Personally, I'd have traded the singularity plot for an assimilation plot.

[Memnon]

However, poor, sloppy execution does not mean that the concept itself was derisively bad.

 

 

I can certainly agree with this - in fact, in the early days following ME3's release there was a fair amount of discussion about how the ending was inspired by Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. When presented well, I can suspend my disbelief for just about anything. As I said, I've been reading fantasy and sci-fi for almost 40 years, the concepts introduced in ME3 are not new nor unique, I just maintain that ME deserved better ...

[von uber]

I think talking the Catalyst down would serve no narrative purpose and would invalidate the who portion of his brief explanation of the mandate to you. I believe you have 3 options to choose from, and that's it. And he's not the one who made them. He's just telling you what you have available. You made the options yourselves.

 

He must be. They are part of the Citadel, not the Crucible - but if you start thikning about that then you are in a whole world of 'hang on...'

[God]

There's a lot of unknowns and speculation to be had on that topic to be honest. 

 

And yes, I don't believe the Catalyst is evil, genuinely malevolent, or even bad. It has its mandate and it will see it fulfilled. That mandate is simply incompatible with certain fundamental aspects and elements of standard life; unless we change the variables, we really are subject to its problems.

[God]

I can certainly agree with this - in fact, in the early days following ME3's release there was a fair amount of discussion about how the ending was inspired by Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. When presented well, I can suspend my disbelief for just about anything. As I said, I've been reading fantasy and sci-fi for almost 40 years, the concepts introduced in ME3 are not new nor unique, I just maintain that ME deserved better ...

 

Technically and executionally, it did deserve better. Narratively and conceptually, 'better' is more of an irrelevant concept. I can sympathize with people pointing out the very real holes in the narrative, logic, and technical aspects of the ending. I have no sympathy for people who are emotionally upset with rustled jimmies about the game 'not reflecting themes', being forced to commit 'atrocities', or people who think the ending was bad because the game didn't end the way they wanted (with Shepard winning through the power of hero and everyone cheering and celebrating as Shepard carries/is carried by the LI off into the sunset.)

[TMA LIVE]

Treating Shep lives scenario as a joke(even after EC) was just the extra insult on top of the ridiculously awful ending. The hate wouldn't have disappeared as it's the worst hole ridden piece of professional writing and completely unrewarding from a player standpoint too. slide show itself was very poor and only received positivity because something that poor was better than what was there before.

 

How is it a joke?

 

And yes, I do think it would disappear. Yes, people would still hate the choices, and think the Catalyst was terrible, but hey, Shepard and Liara now live together, and have a home, and have little blue children, etc. If there's a franchise where your character still has a future, you can just forget about whatever bad plots you ran into, and move on.

[TMA LIVE]

He must be. They are part of the Citadel, not the Crucible - but if you start thikning about that then you are in a whole world of 'hang on...'

 

No, they're part of the Crucible, not the Citadel, or more specifically, Citadel tower. The Catalyst simply adds the paths for you.

[KrrKs]

No, they [the 'Solutions'] are part of the Crucible, not the Citadel, or more specifically, Citadel tower. The Catalyst simply adds the paths for you.

Err, If we talk about the same things (control-rods, synthesis-shaft and destroy-tube), these are part or the citadel.

The Crucible is the structure 'above' the platform, but everything on the same level is citadel equipment.

(The exception being the four Crucible docking arms, which connect to the presidium-ring on a similar plane)

 

I'm too lazy to search for a screenshot as proof right now, maybe I'll edit this post to add that tomorrow.
 

[Wulfram]

It's too much of a choiceless railroad. And it's visually dull and short of aliens, which makes it not really feel much like mass effect.

Also... do they really have red phone booths in 2185? Or were those put there for the benefit of us Americans. If the latter, I'm insulted.

In 2185, they're proabably for Asari tourists

[TMA LIVE]

Err, If we talk about the same things (control-rods, synthesis-shaft and destroy-tube), these are part or the citadel.

The Crucible is the structure 'above' the platform, but everything on the same level is citadel equipment.

(The exception being the four Crucible docking arms, which connect to the presidium-ring on a similar plane)

 

I'm too lazy to search for a screenshot as proof right now, maybe I'll edit this post to add that tomorrow.
 

 

You're right. I decided to take some pictures to simplify it, and it seems the bottom part where the choices are made are on the roof of Citadel Tower, and the Crucible still being above.

 

 

[Fixers0]

Makes you wonder why nobody in all those centuries noticed the strange constructions at the base of the Citadel Tower, I mean somebody must have flown a shuttle over it sometime, or when the Asari first discovered the citadel and were exploring it.

[Reorte]

Technically and executionally, it did deserve better. Narratively and conceptually, 'better' is more of an irrelevant concept. I can sympathize with people pointing out the very real holes in the narrative, logic, and technical aspects of the ending. I have no sympathy for people who are emotionally upset with rustled jimmies about the game 'not reflecting themes', being forced to commit 'atrocities', or people who think the ending was bad because the game didn't end the way they wanted (with Shepard winning through the power of hero and everyone cheering and celebrating as Shepard carries/is carried by the LI off into the sunset.)

Really, why not? Why do only the technical aspects and not the emotional ones matter? Emotion is a massive part of storytelling.

[TMA LIVE]

Really, why not? Why do only the technical aspects and not the emotional ones matter? Emotion is a massive part of storytelling.

 

Yeah, but emotion has different emotions. They wanted you to feel depressed and heartbroke after a bidder sweat ending where you stop the Reapers at a cost of some kind. Whereas many wanted to just beat the Reapers at no cost, or a cost they didn't care about, and have Shepard live.

[von uber]

Makes you wonder why nobody in all those centuries noticed the strange constructions at the base of the Citadel Tower, I mean somebody must have flown a shuttle over it sometime, or when the Asari first discovered the citadel and were exploring it.

You are not supposed to ask questions like that.

[Vazgen]

Makes you wonder why nobody in all those centuries noticed the strange constructions at the base of the Citadel Tower, I mean somebody must have flown a shuttle over it sometime, or when the Asari first discovered the citadel and were exploring it.

For the same reason galactic civilizations made a huge abandoned space station of unknown origin the center of galactic community. 

[themikefest]

You're right. I decided to take some pictures to simplify it, and it seems the bottom part where the choices are made are on the roof of Citadel Tower, and the Crucible still being above.

 

 

 

 

Is Shepard really at that location after using the beam? I would've figured he/she would be closer to the base of the tower

[Vazgen]

Is Shepard really at that location after going up the beam? I would've figured he/she would be closer to the base of the tower

I'd put Shepard's location to the part connecting the tower to the Presidium ring. The way it is shown in the image, Shepard would come from below the beam.

[TMA LIVE]

Makes you wonder why nobody in all those centuries noticed the strange constructions at the base of the Citadel Tower, I mean somebody must have flown a shuttle over it sometime, or when the Asari first discovered the citadel and were exploring it.

 

They probably saw it and didn't care the same way they don't care about Keepers running the place. Or the Catalyst made that change when the Crucible docked.

 

 

Is Shepard really at that location after using the beam? I would've figured he/she would be closer to the base of the tower

 

He's roughly there. Or the other arm to the roof. I don't know specifically, but he's somewhere in the middle of the tower, so he can see the arms open from the center of the Citadel, and sees Earth.

[Reorte]

Yeah, but emotion has different emotions. They wanted you to feel depressed and heartbroke after a bidder sweat ending where you stop the Reapers at a cost of some kind. Whereas many wanted to just beat the Reapers at no cost, or a cost they didn't care about, and have Shepard live.

I can't think of any polite words for someone who wants to make people feel depressed and heartbroken.

The "no cost" argument is a strawman that's been pulled apart many a time. At a cost they didn't care about has slightly more merit but only slightly, as has been born out by the complete lack of complaint about Mordin's death, and the complaints about Legion's being far more along the lines of being completely contrived rather than it happening. As for Shepard him/herself, then fine, I really don't see why some people get so worked up about the possibility of survival. The point is though that if you write it well then people will accept it, if you write something well enough to for people to form an emotional attachment then screw around with it for the hell of it then you'll get a bad reaction. Make it seem too contrived and you'll also get a bad reaction.

[TMA LIVE]

I can't think of any polite words for someone who wants to make people feel depressed and heartbroken.

 

Then that's your problem. Because depressing heartbreaking scenes are written for Movies, TV Shows, Comics, and Books all the time.

[Han Shot First]

Yeah, but emotion has different emotions. They wanted you to feel depressed and heartbroke after a bidder sweat ending where you stop the Reapers at a cost of some kind. Whereas many wanted to just beat the Reapers at no cost, or a cost they didn't care about, and have Shepard live.

 

I would have had the 'cost' be casualties on the squad in accomplishing the mission. All hands on deck for the final mission, with it being impossible to get everyone through unscathed...a suicide mission that actually lives up to the name.