372 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Cliche's are only bad when they're poorly done.

 

I personally don't think Dorian's or Krem were done poorly 

[TurtleTape]

Right, and "shoving her heterosexuality down my throat".
 
Of course, I don't actually feel that way personally, but it is an example of someone's heterosexuality playing out in their story arc.  If she were a lesbian and the story played out exactly the same way, people would be saying that it's being forced on them.

Is it creepy to say I love your posts? Because I can't think of any I've actually disliked. They're pretty much consistently wonderful posts.

[daveliam]

Yeah and both of those quests were bad. Dorians just felt like a story I've heard a 1000 times. Noble son, not living up to his dad's expectations, with personal choices emphasized as the division between the two, sexuality getting in the way....

It's played out, IMO.

 

Out of curiosity, what other video game has a character like Dorian?  I've seen his kind of story played out in tv and movies, but never in video games before.  And, frankly, I kind of like being able to see it in this medium.  If you know of other stories like this (since it's played out), I'd love to know about them so I can go buy them and play them too. 

[Ryzaki]

I personally don't think Dorian's or Krem were done poorly 

 

Neither do I. 

[AresKeith]

Neither do I. 

 

Isn't Krem's story about being a trans based on a dialogue option also?

[I present Chuck Bass]

Out of curiosity, what other video game has a character like Dorian?  I've seen his kind of story played out in tv and movies, but never in video games before.  And, frankly, I kind of like being able to see it in this medium.  If you know of other stories like this (since it's played out), I'd love to know about them so I can go buy them and play them too.

Well played.
I meant in books, movies, tv shows... Yeah I wasn't limiting it to video games.

[I present Chuck Bass]

Isn't Krem's story about being a trans based on a dialogue option also?

Yeah but It has nothing to do with him being transgender? Any poorly done cliche, gets called out. Dorians quest and Krem as a character just happen to be the most poorly done, IMO.

[Colonelkillabee]

Saying something like this and then refusing to discuss it seems like kind of a cheap parting shot, dude.  I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but if you really don't want to say anything on it, you probably just shouldn't say anything on it.

The moderators won't let me or anyone so at best, I can say what I think once, not argue it. And honestly, that's fine with me. You all can believe what you want, but I don't have to. Wasn't even supposed to come up, I usually stick to addressing Krem as just Krem in conversation to avoid the topic altogether.

 

If people want to argue at me, feel free since I can't respond back anyway.

 

 

Right, and "shoving her heterosexuality down my throat".

 

Of course, I don't actually feel that way personally, but it is an example of someone's heterosexuality playing out in their story arc.  If she were a lesbian and the story played out exactly the same way, people would be saying that it's being forced on them.

Don't equate me to the others, I don't think Dorian shoves his sexuality down anyone's throat just because he brings his sexuality up like, one time and not even to preach at me. Just to explain the terrible thing his father wanted to do.

 

There is a big difference between bringing up a sexuality and someone simply having one. It's not the same at all. Aveline's marriage was not about being hetero.

[daveliam]

Well played.
I meant in books, movies, tv shows... Yeah I wasn't limiting it to video games.

 

Yeah, I was mostly f-ing you in that post.  I agree that it's played out in other media, but, frankly, I'd like to see more of any gay related stories in video games so if they have to start at more basic "played out" ones, I'm okay with it.  I mean, it's the first "gay sexuality playing a role in the story" plot that I can think of in a video game, so I'm cool with it. 

[daveliam]

Don't equate me to the others, I don't think Dorian shoves his sexuality down anyone's throat just because he brings his sexuality up like, one time and not even to preach at me. Just to explain the terrible thing his father wanted to do.

 

There is a big difference between bringing up a sexuality and someone simply having one. It's not the same at all. Aveline's marriage was not about being hetero.

 

I wasn't saying that you were saying Dorian was 'shoved down your throat', I was making the comparison between people's reaction to straight characters and to similar gay characters.

 

I'm not saying that it's a perfect parallel, but it is certainly similar.  Aveline's sexuality plays a role in her companion quest.  It's tangential, but it sets up the events.  Dorian's sexuality plays a role in his companion quest.  It's tangential, but it sets up the events.  Similar, yet only one is considered "not relevant" and the other isn't.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There are two things I don't like about Krem being trans in the game, and neither have to do with Krem being trans himself but rather what the game does with it. 

 

1) Retcons the Qun into being accepting of transsexuals. This is a group that cares nothing of what the individual thinks but instead is all about the community. As such, they were shown to have very strict gender roles. And yet now if someone expresses what they think, the Qun ignores their rigid rules and does what the individual thinks. I get why they did it certainly: the term transsexual doesn't exist in Thedas so they needed to find a word that means the same thing. Plus I also think with this and a few other retcons they are trying to make the Qun more likable since it'll play a bigger role the farther north we go. 

 

2) How the Inquisitor handles it. The actual discussion during the Chargers cutscene is fine, since it offers options. I'm more referring to the later conversation like the Investigate option with The Iron Bull. They make the assumption that the player sees Krem as a women only to have The Iron Bull replies with dialogue that can come off as a bit preachy. It would have been better if the kept the gender part out and The Iron Bull goes straight to the 'he doesn't care' part of his response in my opinion. 

[I present Chuck Bass]

Yeah, I was mostly f-ing you in that post.  I agree that it's played out in other media, but, frankly, I'd like to see more of any gay related stories in video games so if they have to start at more basic "played out" ones, I'm okay with it.  I mean, it's the first "gay sexuality playing a role in the story" plot that I can think of in a video game, so I'm cool with it.

Naturally.

And yup I'm cool with it too, but for me...
I just want better characters, Krem felt to me at times as being defined by being transgender, which just takes away from him as a character. He shouldn't be known as the first transgender character in the game, he should be known as Krem, a member of the charging bulls.. The fact that he's transgender shouldn't make him stick out, he should stick out for being an awesome character.

[Colonelkillabee]

I wasn't saying that you were saying Dorian was 'shoved down your throat', I was making the comparison between people's reaction to straight characters and to similar gay characters.

 

I'm not saying that it's a perfect parallel, but it is certainly similar.  Aveline's sexuality plays a role in her companion quest.  It's tangential, but it sets up the events.  Dorian's sexuality plays a role in his companion quest.  It's tangential, but it sets up the events.  Similar, yet only one is considered "not relevant" and the other isn't.

It's considered not relevant because it's not brought up, not just because she's heterosexual and it's considered normal.

 

You could say it never would have been brought up because it's considered normal. It isn't "fair" but neither is life.

 

There really is no parallel to be honest. The missions aren't even remotely the same. In subject matter or otherwise.

[daveliam]

Naturally.

And yup I'm cool with it too, but for me...
I just want better characters, Krem felt to me at times as being defined by being transgender, which just takes away from him as a character. He shouldn't be known as the first transgender character in the game, he should be known as Krem, a member of the charging bulls.. The fact that he's transgender shouldn't make him stick out, he should stick out for being an awesome character.

 

For me, the Krem story is fine because it's all through optional dialogue.  You can, literally, go through the entire game and never once discuss his gender identity with him.  If it played out the same way and was mandatory, then I might feel differently.  But, as is, you have to actively click on dialogue asking for more discussions around it for Krem to talk to you about it. 

[CrimsonN7]

Right, and "shoving her heterosexuality down my throat".

 

Of course, I don't actually feel that way personally, but it is an example of someone's heterosexuality playing out in their story arc.  If she were a lesbian and the story played out exactly the same way, people would be saying that it's being forced on them.

 

You didn't enjoy having Hawke wandering around like an idiot lighting beacons and having to push that oblivious bob into the arms of Mr. Personality? If I could care less I would, playing match-maker for my companions ugh.

[Bethgael]

Anyone who refuses to talk to Krem based on his TG status also misses out on many War Table quests so--their loss. *shrugs*

[daveliam]

It's considered not relevant because it's not brought up, not just because she's heterosexual and it's considered normal.

 

You could say it never would have been brought up because it's considered normal. It isn't "fair" but neither is life.

 

There really is no parallel to be honest. The missions aren't even remotely the same. In subject matter or otherwise.

 

She mentions that she's attracted to him.  She wants to marry him.  She makes out with him and you hear the sounds of it at the end of the quest.  So.....how exactly is her sexuality "not brought up"?  Dorian says he likes the company of men.  Aveline says that she's attracted to Donnic.  Both of them discuss their sexuality.

[AresKeith]

For me, the Krem story is fine because it's all through optional dialogue.  You can, literally, go through the entire game and never once discuss his gender identity with him.  If it played out the same way and was mandatory, then I might feel differently.  But, as is, you have to actively click on dialogue asking for more discussions around it for Krem to talk to you about it. 

 

That's why I liked the way Bioware handled it because you don't have to discuss it and can avoid it by not clicking the dialogue option

[Esteed789]

The moderators won't let me or anyone so at best, I can say what I think once, not argue it. And honestly, that's fine with me. You all can believe what you want, but I don't have to. Wasn't even supposed to come up, I usually stick to addressing Krem as just Krem in conversation to avoid the topic altogether.

 

If people want to argue at me, feel free since I can't respond back anyway.

 

Nah dude, I'm not trying to make a thing about it.  It just seemed like you wanted to avoid an argument, so I figured it might be worth pointing out that could conceivably start one, that's all.

[TurtleTape]

There are two things I don't like about Krem being trans in the game, and neither have to do with Krem being trans himself but rather what the game does with it. 
 
1) Retcons the Qun into being accepting of transsexuals. This is a group that cares nothing of what the individual thinks but instead is all about the community. As such, they were shown to have very strict gender roles. And yet now if someone expresses what they think, the Qun ignores their rigid rules and does what the individual thinks. I get why they did it certainly: the term transsexual doesn't exist in Thedas so they needed to find a word that means the same thing. Plus I also think with this and a few other retcons they are trying to make the Qun more likable since it'll play a bigger role the farther north we go. 
 
2) How the Inquisitor handles it. The actual discussion during the Chargers cutscene is fine, since it offers options. I'm more referring to the later conversation like the Investigate option with The Iron Bull. They make the assumption that the player sees Krem as a women only to have The Iron Bull replies with dialogue that can come off as a bit preachy. It would have been better if the kept the gender part out and The Iron Bull goes straight to the 'he doesn't care' part of his response in my opinion.

Depending on how you interpret it, it isn't a retcon. The Qun is very strict on gender roles, to the point that someone who performs gender roles opposite to their assigned gender is considered the gender of the role. This is a thing in the current world, where some gay men in some undeveloped countries are encouraged to transition into female to preserve the gender roles of the society. Of course, gender roles/presentation =/= identity, so the Qun idea of transgender isn't like the "modern" Earth idea of transgender, but it isn't necessarily a retcon. Sten was pissed because the warden considered herself female and a warrior, whereas under the Qun she would have just been considered a male.

I'm a trans guy, and as such dislike many of the questions asked. However I really like how they're addressed. "Passing" questions are met with "I'm not passing" type comments, which is wonderful. The activist, "everyone needs to know trans guys, not just trans women, exist" part of me loves the variety because it gives people the opportunity to be educated, but the part of me that just wants to be treated as a guy wishes the dialogue choices were more equal. As it is, it's about 75% not understanding and 25% understanding. That would be fine or generous in current society, but this is Thedas, where all kinds of sexuality are accepted, so it would have been nice to see gender treated the same way. I think gender needed to be part of Krem's dialogue, but it wasn't handled as well as it could have been. I do think it was handled this way due to the current North American views of trans people, though, which I completely understand.

And ah...I suppose that's the end of my longish post.

[Colonelkillabee]

She mentions that she's attracted to him.  She wants to marry him.  She makes out with him and you hear the sounds of it at the end of the quest.  So.....how exactly is her sexuality "not brought up"?  Dorian says he likes the company of men.  Aveline says that she's attracted to Donnic.  Both of them discuss their sexuality.

Uh, because it's not brought up? I wouldn't say Dorian brought up his sexuality because he banged bull. Aveline says she likes Donnic. That doesn't mean she brought up a sexuality. She could still be bisexual after all. You don't know, because her sexuality is never brought up.

 

Dorian however does bring it up.

[Allan Schumacher]

I just want better characters, Krem felt to me at times as being defined by being transgender, which just takes away from him as a character. He shouldn't be known as the first transgender character in the game, he should be known as Krem, a member of the charging bulls.. The fact that he's transgender shouldn't make him stick out, he should stick out for being an awesome character.

 

I think this plays more on the audience and the discussion around Krem because Krem IS transgender and that is something uncommon in games (and media).  If Krem is defined as being transgender within the context of the game, then that means that if we were to remove the part of Krem/Bull's story where we learn that Krem is transgender the character now has no role.  But Krem does have a role and I think if that conversation didn't exist Krem would still be what he is: Iron Bull's Lieutenant who serves as a vehicle to learn more about Bull and the Chargers, with the possibility of the player finding the Chargers interesting so as to present a potentially difficult choice at the end of The Iron Bull's arc.

 

I think all these aspects are still delivered even if you were to remove the discussion about Krem being transgender.  You can (like me) not even realize that Krem is transgender until that conversation happens even. I don't think that Krem's presence in the game mandates a need for Krem to be transgender.

[Ryzaki]

Isn't Krem's story about being a trans based on a dialogue option also?

 

Don't know. I spoke to him once (about it in particularly) and he mentioned knowing it since he was a child. I didn't notice more than one background but I only spoke to him one on one like twice.

 

I wasn't very curious about it tbh.