372 réponses à ce sujet

[I present Chuck Bass]

For me, the Krem story is fine because it's all through optional dialogue.  You can, literally, go through the entire game and never once discuss his gender identity with him.  If it played out the same way and was mandatory, then I might feel differently.  But, as is, you have to actively click on dialogue asking for more discussions around it for Krem to talk to you about it.

Yes, obviously we disagree on the quality of the character developed.
To me, ignoring the story of him is a really a poor option. I'm not complaining that I have to discuss his gender identity. I'm complaining that it was poorly done, not because it was shoved down my throat, but because it lacked and depth or anything original.

[TurtleTape]

Uh, because it's not brought up? I wouldn't say Dorian brought up his sexuality because he banged bull. Aveline says she likes Donnic. That doesn't mean she brought up a sexuality. She could still be bisexual after all. You don't know, because her sexuality is never brought up.
 
Dorian however does bring it up.

He brings it up because it's an important part of his character. His entire character is loving a country that doesn't accept him for various reasons and being lonely. If he had been straight and refused to marry the woman his parents picked, his story would have been the same, and no one would have cared because he would have been straight.

[I present Chuck Bass]

Anyone who refuses to talk to Krem based on his TG status also misses out on many War Table quests so--their loss. *shrugs*

I don't think anyone on here has refused to talk to Krem? No one is complaining he is transgender...

[Colonelkillabee]

Nah dude, I'm not trying to make a thing about it.  It just seemed like you wanted to avoid an argument, so I figured it might be worth pointing out that could conceivably start one, that's all.

I do and I don't.

 

I'd love to have this discussion honestly, but every time I try, mods come in and ghost my arguments. I'd like to avoid an argument since I can't participate in it.

 

I'm not a coward though, which is why I still gave my view. That's enough for me.

[CrimsonN7]

That's why I liked the way Bioware handled it because you don't have to discuss it and can avoid it by not clicking the dialogue option

 

Some of the options were gah I'd never ask this to anyone ever, not my business. Glad I could avoid the awkwardness that would follow.

[Colonelkillabee]

He brings it up because it's an important part of his character. His entire character is loving a country that doesn't accept him for various reasons and being lonely. If he had been straight and refused to marry the woman his parents picked, his story would have been the same, and no one would have cared because he would have been straight.

I know why he brings it up. I'm not criticizing him for it. I'm just saying, he does bring it up. Aveline does not.

 

The story would not have been the same, as a big reason why Dorian didn't want to marry in the first place was because they picked a woman for him. Granted, that wasn't the only reason, not even the main reason, but it was a big reason. Big enough that his father thought it necessary once to change his sexuality over it, which suggests it wasn't just because he didn't want a marriage arranged for him. Even if yes, absolutely that was the main reason.

[AresKeith]

Some of the options were gah I'd never ask this to anyone ever, not my business. Glad I could avoid the awkwardness that would follow.

 

What's wrong with playing an awkward IQ

[Colonelkillabee]

If Dorian's character didn't exist, Aveline's sexuality would almost never be brought up ever.

 

Dorian's sexuality however is brought up for that mission by everyone, gay and straight alike. That's how you know which is about a sexuality and which isn't.

 

I forgot, what did this have to do with Krem again?

[Nefla]

So the game is populated with hundreds of no-name NPCs that have one or two lines of dialogue generic dialogue, snoozeworthy insipid characters such as Celine/Gaspard/Brialla/Fiona/etc...and Krem is the boring one? He's a minor NPC but he's funny, respectful of you, and gives you an interesting insight into the life of regular people in Tevinter.

[Ryzaki]

What's wrong with playing an awkward IQ

 

Nothing but I'd only have an elf be that bumbling if I made a character like that.

[AresKeith]

Nothing but I'd only have an elf be that bumbling if I made a character like that.

 

[I present Chuck Bass]

I think this plays more on the audience and the discussion around Krem because Krem IS transgender and that is something uncommon in games (and media).  If Krem is defined as being transgender within the context of the game, then that means that if we were to remove the part of Krem/Bull's story where we learn that Krem is transgender the character now has no role.  But Krem does have a role and I think if that conversation didn't exist Krem would still be what he is: Iron Bull's Lieutenant who serves as a vehicle to learn more about Bull and the Chargers, with the possibility of the player finding the Chargers interesting so as to present a potentially difficult choice at the end of The Iron Bull's arc.
 
I think all these aspects are still delivered even if you were to remove the discussion about Krem being transgender.  You can (like me) not even realize that Krem is transgender until that conversation happens even. I don't think that Krem's presence in the game mandates a need for Krem to be transgender.

Well put.
Like you, I didn't discover he was transgender until my second playthrough with my noisy dwarf. My view of him after finding out was the same before I knew, he's a chill fella. I view him as Bulls right hand man before anything else... But I'm also aware many people define who Krem is by his gender identity. Which is the result of all his character development being centered around him being transgender( I don't see It this way! but have seen many put it this way)... I simply see him as a dull dude with a cliche story lingering in the background.

[I present Chuck Bass]

So the game is populated with hundreds of no-name NPCs that have one or two lines of dialogue generic dialogue, snoozeworthy insipid characters such as Celine/Gaspard/Brialla/Fiona/etc...and Krem is the boring one? He's a minor NPC but he's funny, respectful of you, and gives you an interesting insight into the life of regular people in Tevinter.

that's a poor compassion and you know it. No one in gta complains about the store clerks being boring, just like no thinks of the random npc. The others you mentioned are boring as well,IMO, and some cliche, but to me not as bad as Krem.

[Nefla]

that's a poor compassion and you know it. No one in gta complains about the store clerks being boring, just like no thinks of the random npc. The others you mentioned are boring as well,IMO, and some cliche, but to me not as bad as Krem.

Seriously? To me there is absolutely nothing interesting about any of those characters I listed (though each has a bigger role than Krem) while if nothing else, the back and forth between Krem and Iron Bull is hilarious

[TurtleTape]

If Dorian's character didn't exist, Aveline's sexuality would almost never be brought up ever.
 
Dorian's sexuality however is brought up for that mission by everyone, gay and straight alike. That's how you know which is about a sexuality and which isn't.
 
I forgot, what did this have to do with Krem again?

You're missing the point. Aveline's sexuality is not made a big deal of by anyone ever because it is the majority sexuality. As I've mentioned earlier, had she been gay, then the exact same plot would have been brought under a ton of scrutiny because she was after a same sex relationship.

This is, of course, dismissing the fact that her sexuality IS brought up just because she's in a relationship. When you are not a sexual minority, straight relationships are considered an inconsequential thing. For many of us who are gay or bisexual, it's just reinforcing that hetero relationships are the norm. Heterosexual people can easily overlook these things, while we have to deal with them in almost literally every bit of entertainment we partake in without being granted even a cliche gay character.

I assume you're straight, so you don't notice these heterosexual relationships. I do. Just because you think they aren't "brought up" doesn't mean they aren't. Just a crush or relationship being mentioned is being "brought up".

[Ryzaki]

*snip*

 

Ooooh.

 

In my defense it's late.

[I present Chuck Bass]

Seriously? To me there is absolutely nothing interesting about any of those characters I listed (though each has a bigger role than Krem) while if nothing else, the back and forth between Krem and Iron Bull is hilarious

Okay Jeez...



I'm jealous of his looks...

[CrimsonN7]

What's wrong with playing an awkward IQ

 

I can roleplay to a point, I'm not gonna purposely pick derp questions though. Youtube can sate that curiosity.

[Allan Schumacher]

But I'm also aware many people define who Krem is by his gender identity. Which is the result of all his character development being centered around him being transgender( I don't see It this way! but have seen many put it this way)... I simply see him as a dull dude with a cliche story lingering in the background.

 

For sure, but discussions about Juhani involved her being a lesbian, which was new(er) and more novel.  Jaheira, Viconia, Aerie, and Anomen were discussed for being a romance option (even today "romance option" is a trait that the audience will still enthusiastically discuss about any character).

 

I don't think it defined Juhani's character, even if fans of the game wanted to discuss that aspect. I think the novelty plays a non-trivial role and I think we would handcuff ourselves if we ended up worrying about whether or not the audience will discuss this when we are adding a creating a character, especially for things that are much less frequently occurring.  Take a reality where trans characters are much more common and accepted in society and media, and I doubt people talk about Krem based on his gender identity. But since that isn't our reality isn't that, it becomes an "oh hey" moment that stands out.

 

Am I unreasonable in assuming that any trans characters in other games will probably have similar discussions in the short term?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 04 février 2015 - 04:59 .
Due to some edits the "her" I left in was ambiguous. Changed.

[Colonelkillabee]

You're missing the point. Aveline's sexuality is not made a big deal of by anyone ever because it is the majority sexuality. As I've mentioned earlier, had she been gay, then the exact same plot would have been brought under a ton of scrutiny because she was after a same sex relationship.

This is, of course, dismissing the fact that her sexuality IS brought up just because she's in a relationship. When you are not a sexual minority, straight relationships are considered an inconsequential thing. For many of us who are gay or bisexual, it's just reinforcing that hetero relationships are the norm. Heterosexual people can easily overlook these things, while we have to deal with them in almost literally every bit of entertainment we partake in without being granted even a cliche gay character.

I assume you're straight, so you don't notice these heterosexual relationships. I do. Just because you think they aren't "brought up" doesn't mean they aren't. Just a crush or relationship being mentioned is being "brought up".

You're missing the point actually. It doesn't matter what would be brought up IF she was gay. She's not, so it never was.

 

I notice gay relationships just like I notice heterosexual relationships, and you can assume what you want, but it changes nothing.

[I present Chuck Bass]

You're missing the point. Aveline's sexuality is not made a big deal of by anyone ever because it is the majority sexuality. As I've mentioned earlier, had she been gay, then the exact same plot would have been brought under a ton of scrutiny because she was after a same sex relationship.This is, of course, dismissing the fact that her sexuality IS brought up just because she's in a relationship. When you are not a sexual minority, straight relationships are considered an inconsequential thing. For many of us who are gay or bisexual, it's just reinforcing that hetero relationships are the norm. Heterosexual people can easily overlook these things, while we have to deal with them in almost literally every bit of entertainment we partake in without being granted even a cliche gay character.I assume you're straight, so you don't notice these heterosexual relationships. I do. Just because you think they aren't "brought up" doesn't mean they aren't. Just a crush or relationship being mentioned is being "brought up".

That last sentence I disagree with ....yup I disagree.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Depending on how you interpret it, it isn't a retcon. The Qun is very strict on gender roles, to the point that someone who performs gender roles opposite to their assigned gender is considered the gender of the role. This is a thing in the current world, where some gay men in some undeveloped countries are encouraged to transition into female to preserve the gender roles of the society. Of course, gender roles/presentation =/= identity, so the Qun idea of transgender isn't like the "modern" Earth idea of transgender, but it isn't necessarily a retcon. Sten was pissed because the warden considered herself female and a warrior, whereas under the Qun she would have just been considered a male.

I'm a trans guy, and as such dislike many of the questions asked. However I really like how they're addressed. "Passing" questions are met with "I'm not passing" type comments, which is wonderful. The activist, "everyone needs to know trans guys, not just trans women, exist" part of me loves the variety because it gives people the opportunity to be educated, but the part of me that just wants to be treated as a guy wishes the dialogue choices were more equal. As it is, it's about 75% not understanding and 25% understanding. That would be fine or generous in current society, but this is Thedas, where all kinds of sexuality are accepted, so it would have been nice to see gender treated the same way. I think gender needed to be part of Krem's dialogue, but it wasn't handled as well as it could have been. I do think it was handled this way due to the current North American views of trans people, though, which I completely understand.

And ah...I suppose that's the end of my longish post.

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether it is a retcon or not. The Qun has shown it doesn't give a single care about what it's people think and if they have thoughts that don't match up with the Qun, like a transsexual seeing themselves as their gender rather than what they are biologically in this case, are sent to reeducation camps until they comply, and if they don't are turned into mindless laborers. 

 

As for the latter half of your post, as I said I like where there are options on how to respond. What I don't like is the game assuming what your character thinks so they can do the "How do you feel about them being a woman?" "They are not a woman." dialogue. I already know that, both out of the game as well as in the game, so like I said it could come off as a bit preachy since it was like "Are you stupid? We already covered this. Let us tell you again so you get it.". So in my opinion it would have been better to have that investigate option start with something like "How do you feel about Krem?" then The Iron Bull going straight to him appreciating Krem part of that dialogue.

[TurtleTape]

You're missing the point actually. It doesn't matter what would be brought up IF she was gay. She's not, so it never was.
 
I notice gay relationships just like I notice heterosexual relationships, and you can assume what you want, but it changes nothing.

 
 

That last sentence I disagree with ....yup I disagree.

So...if a gay character so much as mentions that they're gay it's "bringing it up", but if a straight character mentions that they're straight it isn't? The entire inability of some people to put themselves in others' shoes is mindblowing.

For my own mental health, I'm bowing out.

[I present Chuck Bass]

For sure, but discussions about Juhani involved her being a lesbian, which was new(er) and more novel. Jaheira, Viconia, Aerie, and Anomen were discussed for being a romance option (even today "romance option" is a trait that the audience will still enthusiastically discuss about any character).

I don't think it defined her character, even if fans of the game wanted to discuss that aspect. I think the novelty plays a non-trivial role and I think we would handcuff ourselves if we ended up worrying about whether or not the audience will discuss this when we are adding a creating a character, especially for things that are much less frequently occurring. Take a reality where trans characters are much more common and accepted in society and media, and I doubt people talk about Krem based on his gender identity. But since that isn't our reality isn't that, it becomes an "oh hey" moment that stands out.

Am I unreasonable in assuming that any trans characters in other games will probably have similar discussions in the short term?

Nope, not unreasonable at all... You have mad me see the light that is Krem.I was wrong.. As hard as that is to admit.

Still the dialogue was clunky at times, that much is still true.

[RobRam10]

Booooooorrrrrrriiiiiiiiinngggggggg

Where is my option for Krem to face Imperial justice?