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Not by me. I hate all versions of her personal quest. If she wants to play the shy teenage girl, she can do that on her own time. Not mine.
For real. Even with Hawkes that were friendly with her, I desperately wanted there to be an option to have them shove her into a room with Donnic and be like, "Here! Now you can stop being awkward and kind of creepy and talk to him like an adult. I'll just be out here making sure you don't kick the door down."
Anyway, that's not what I think. I simply think that a lot of Krem's attention is due to Krem being trans, because there just doesn't seem to be that much there to explain the complete devotion people have to this character, especially on Tumblr. I mean, it's not like that's wrong. It's not at all important to me so the character doesn't interest me enough with the stories about Bull and stuff to give them much attention. At best I see Krem as a neat way to give bull some more background, because Krem is a minor character.
This goes back to representation and why I feel it is important. If trans character's are more frequent in media I agree that Krem being trans likely isn't as much of a thing. I see it as symptomatic of larger issues in our culture.
That said, I never understood why people loved Cullen so much from DAO based on the amount of content he had, but he had his (huge!) following. There are some that love Wade and Herren as well that make me go "Huh, I wasn't expecting that." Same with Sandal and so forth. It's fine if Krem doesn't interest you as a character, but I think it's still important to not be entirely dismissive that Krem is only liked because he is a trans character.
Brought up more as an example that heterosexual relationships typically aren't seen with the same scrutiny due to being more prevalent and familiar.
I do think Aveline's plot arc would have been received differently had Donnic been a woman (or Aveline a man), based purely on the same sex relationship aspect. It might be an "agree to disagree" part since I think that if only that was changed, people (maybe not you) would still frame the encounter as being "forced" as a result of it being a gay relationship.
I agree that it likely would, same as how some people find Dorian's mission cliche because gay and daddy issues was brought up. I don't agree that was cliche, and I wouldn't agree aveline's thing was forced if it was a woman either. People confuse something that is forced with something that makes them uncomfortable or that obviously breaks the norm of what they're used to in an obvious way. It's not the same, as you already know.
But anyway, people give Krem more scrutiny partly because yes, this certainly is something very new to the gaming world, but mainly it's the way it was handled. The one saving grace it has is that you do not have to ask Krem about Krem's gender identity, I believe. only if you ask about it does it get brought up, so because of that, I don't know that I can say it was forced on that alone, though it did feel preachy.
However, what makes it feel forced for me, is that it seems to go against what Sten tells the player in Dragon Age Origins:
Now, I am aware Sten has some other dialogue that makes this a little confusing. On one hand he makes it seem like a woman cannot be a man, but the argument presented is that of course a trans man person is not a woman to begin with because that is not what they identify with.
That's all well and good in our society, but does that honestly seem like something the Qunari would adopt of all people? I am not so sure about that, and neither are a lot of people, gay straight, trans, not trans, etc.
This goes back to representation and why I feel it is important. If trans character's are more frequent in media I agree that Krem being trans likely isn't as much of a thing. I see it as symptomatic of larger issues in our culture.
That said, I never understood why people loved Cullen so much from DAO based on the amount of content he had, but he had his (huge!) following. There are some that love Wade and Herren as well that make me go "Huh, I wasn't expecting that." Same with Sandal and so forth. It's fine if Krem doesn't interest you as a character, but I think it's still important to not be entirely dismissive that Krem is only liked because he is a trans character.
Yep, that I agree on. I still to this day have no idea why people loved Cullen. A friend tried explaining it to me before. Something about the underdog thing, or appreciation for him being a minor character and just a man. Eh, to each their own I guess.
I still think this is the case for Krem, but I concede to the point that yea, people can craft all sorts of reasons to love a character.
Abelas almost boils down completely to his awesome thighs, lol.
Straighty will be alright, straighty is gonna make it. Bioware's agenda won't hurt much just relax your throat muscles.
I don't know... that gay agenda sounds pretty dangerous. If we don't do something about it, pretty soon, they'll get stories about them.
Personally, I find the transgender part of his character to be interesting in a few ways.
- I did not know that he is trans first time I met him. I only found out later when there were options to 'investigate' him and get to know him even more. This resonates well with my experience with a lot of trans people in a LGBT community around me. They don't usually go "hey my name is this and I am trans btw." But once you get to know them and/or become friends with them, some can tell you a lot about their gender identity, their struggle with it, how others treat them, and generally how being transgender is significant to them. Because of these Krem feels real.. and familiar to me. It does not appear to me that he is added by Bioware just to complete a checklist.
- I am fascinated by how non-normative sexual orientations and gender identities are considered and treated in the fictional world of Thedas, or in fact within any fictional worlds that successfully draw me in. Iron bull's and Krem's explanations during my conversation regarding him being a trans man satisfy my curiosity.
- It does not feel forced to me to any slightest degree at all, as the conversations about his gender are optional and not requirement for plot/quest progression. Him being transgender comes naturally and smoothly to me.
His character can become dull later as with any other minor characters. Except for being my eye candy every time I walk in, Krem is a very small part of my 180-hr play through. Now I wish I could interact with him more.
... It's fine if Krem doesn't interest you as a character, but I think it's still important to not be entirely dismissive that Krem is only liked because he is a trans character.
Exactly this.
Some people, who are me, think Krem is a handsome, badass warrior. And he's charmingly funny when sassin' Bull.
I don't know... that gay agenda sounds pretty dangerous. If we don't do something about it, pretty soon, they'll get stories about them.
Man, I wish Greywinter wasn't banned. His response to this would have been worth at least three gifs. 
- It does not feel forced to me to any slightest degree at all, as the conversations about his gender are optional and not requirement for plot/quest progression. Him being transgender comes naturally and smoothly to me.
That's not what forced means. When people say Krem being trans is forced, they're talking about the 15 minutes of unneeded Tevinter shame that was used to explain it.
That's not what forced means. When people say Krem being trans is forced, they're talking about the 15 minutes of unneeded Tevinter shame that was used to explain it.
And here I thought it was just another example of how the 'Vints are arseholes.
I mean, they're not Dalish, but still.
That's not what forced means. When people say Krem being trans is forced, they're talking about the 15 minutes of unneeded Tevinter shame that was used to explain it.
Lol it was more like 15 seconds, lets save the hyperbole.
Lol it was more like 15 seconds, lets save the hyperbole.
Maybe the one about how Bull got his eyepatch, The story about Krem trying to pass in the army was certainly not 15 seconds... Though yeah not 15 minutes either lol. Certainly felt like more than 15 minutes though
Lol it was more like 15 seconds, lets save the hyperbole.
No, it was more like 15 minutes. "My mom tried to make me wear dresses, so I ran away. I joined the army, but women don't get to fight, so I ran away. I got caught, and they wanted to say I committed a crime, even though I did, so I ran away." I'm not sure what world you live in where Hale can deliver even a single sentence in 15 seconds, but I wish I lived in it.Though to be honest, the amount of time is hardly important.
And here I thought it was just another example of how the 'Vints are arseholes.
I mean, they're not Dalish, but still.
Honestly, the Dalish don't need more reasons for us to not like them and neither does Tevinter. We get it already.
No, it was more like 15 minutes. "My mom tried to make me wear dresses, so I ran away. I joined the army, but women don't get to fight, so I ran away. I got caught, and they wanted to say I committed a crime, even though I did, so I ran away." I'm not sure what world you live in where Hale can deliver even a single sentence in 15 seconds, but I wish I lived in it.Though to be honest, the amount of time is hardly important.
:rofl:
Maybe the one about how Bull got his eyepatch, The story about Krem trying to pass in the army was certainly not 15 seconds... Though yeah not 15 minutes either lol. Certainly felt like more than 15 minutes though
I apparently missed a lot of Krem's dialogue. I only heard about Krem being trans from that one scene where you meet the chargers. Is this after saving them? Because I've never saved the chargers TBH. Greater good.
If someone links proof that its actually 15 seconds long though stuff it I concede the point, I am not listening to that crappy story again.
:rofl:
I apparently missed a lot of Krem's dialogue. I only heard about Krem being trans from that one scene where you meet the chargers. Is this after saving them? Because I've never saved the chargers TBH. Greater good.
Nah before saving them, its in the inn after the scene where IB introduces you to all the chargers
Nah before saving them, its in the inn after the scene where IB introduces you to all the chargers
Huh... I must have zoned out or something then. Tbh Krems voice makes me sleepy. Aveline's did too.
Is this the exchange you guys are talking about? There's two bits of story about being in the army in that one. Including the other non-army related bits of the exchange, the whole thing clocks in at 3:59. So...not quite 15 minutes, unless we're going especially non-linear with time.
That's not what forced means. When people say Krem being trans is forced, they're talking about the 15 minutes of unneeded Tevinter shame that was used to explain it.
I guess we have a different definition of the meaning of "forced" then. I do not think it's forced because I can finish a play through without even acknowledging that he's trans.
is this the exchange you guys are talking about? There's two bits of story about being in the army in that one. Including the other non-army related bits of the exchange, the whole thing clocks in at 3:59. So...not quite 15 minutes, unless we're going especially non-linear with time.
Like I said, not watching the video lol. But yeah if its the right conversation it felt even longer than 15 minutes...
No, it was more like 15 minutes. "My mom tried to make me wear dresses, so I ran away. I joined the army, but women don't get to fight, so I ran away. I got caught, and they wanted to say I committed a crime, even though I did, so I ran away." I'm not sure what world you live in where Hale can deliver even a single sentence in 15 seconds, but I wish I lived in it.Though to be honest, the amount of time is hardly important.
Honestly, the Dalish don't need more reasons for us to not like them and neither does Tevinter. We get it already.
That was another moment where Bio tried to whitewash the Borg Qun and throw more villain dust over the Imperium.
Is this the exchange you guys are talking about? There's two bits of story about being in the army in that one. Including the other non-army related bits of the exchange, the whole thing clocks in at 3:59. So...not quite 15 minutes, unless we're going especially non-linear with time.
They had Flask of Lightning going while talking to him.
Guest_Donkson_*
*Uses Venatori time travel*
BioWareMod03: And we are done here.
From a critic kind of perspective I take issue with some of the handling of LGBT issues, they're not 'good' in the sense that they're applied like meat tenderizers. Krem's was also kinda awkward at least for me but that was not a flaw, seems like something that SHOULD be awkward to someone who has never seen such a thing/even thought about it (I'm talking about my character here if that wasn't clear). But the SJW part of me can appreciate if for what it is, representation is valuable. Extremely visible representation that makes it impossible to NOT notice is even more valuable.
And as for whether games should involve themselves in such things... Lets think about that for a second. Point me at fiction that does not sport some theme that relates to straight representation. It is part of the fundamental building blocks of fantasy and fiction. So don't tell me representation has no place in games, because it wouldn't exist as it does without it. When people say this what they really mean is 'I don't think gaming companies should include representation of a group that does not include me/the 'norm.''
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