372 réponses à ce sujet

[Roamingmachine]

I can't call Krem him or he. Genders exist for a reason & I will not & can not willingly go against these natural existence states just to make some one feel better about time selves. Now, I respect people choices but that just isn't one of them I'm willing to oblige. No matter how short Krem cuts her hair or how much tape she uses to tape down her boobs. Krem is a chick.

Anyway, other than that, I like Krem, SHE is a well & done character & has a ton of great stories.

 

No, HE isn't a chick.

Also, misgendering a trans person is fighting words 'round here darling.

[Lady Artifice]

*Uses Venatori time travel*

 

BioWareMod03: And we are done here.

 

Really? I'm actually kind of impressed. 

 

This is a first time I've seen a thread about Krem maintain a calm dialogue throughout,

and without a repetitive descent into pronoun debates. 

 

Edit:

And perhaps I spoke too soon. 

[Esteed789]

I can't call Krem him or he. Genders exist for a reason & I will not & can not willingly go against these natural existence states just to make some one feel better about time selves. Now, I respect people choices but that just isn't one of them I'm willing to oblige. No matter how short Krem cuts her hair or how much tape she uses to tape down her boobs. Krem is a chick.

Anyway, other than that, I like Krem, SHE is a well & done character & has a ton of great stories.

 

 

And we were doing so well, too...

[Panda]

I have hard time seeing how Krem could be cliche or trope since I haven't seen character like him in any game before. To be cliche or trope there should be lot of similar characters around.

[Malthier]

I have hard time seeing how Krem could be cliche or trope since I haven't seen character like him in any game before. To be cliche or trope there should be lot of similar characters around.

 

A trope is just a storytelling device. Trope =/= cliche. 

 

EDIT: Nor does it carry any of the negative implications. 

[Drasanil]

No, HE isn't a chick.

Also, misgendering a trans person is fighting words 'round here darling.

 

 

"He" absolutely is, nor is it "misgendering" to refer to a person by their actual gender, despite their most fervent/sincere wishes to the contrary.

 

I fervently/sincerely wish to be a millionaire, it doesn't mean anyone is going to hand me a pile of money just because I really really would like it to be so. 

[Panda]

A trope is just a storytelling device. Trope =/= cliche. 

 

EDIT: Nor does it carry any of the negative implications. 

 

Trope should be something that's used a lot to it become a trope but I don't think Krem can be trope either since I haven't seen any character like him.

[Panda]

Sex =/= gender.

 

Some languages don't have different definitions for sex and gender but then you can think them as: biological gender and social gender. Social gender is the one you should refer transgenders with, not their biological gender unless you want to be rude.

[Roamingmachine]

"He" absolutely is, nor is it "misgendering" to refer to a person by their actual gender, despite their most fervent/sincere wishes to the contrary.

 

I fervently/sincerely wish to be a millionaire, it doesn't mean anyone is going to hand me a pile of money just because I really really would like it to be so. 

 

No, HE isn't.  Sex and gender are diffrent things. Transphobia is such an ugly characteristic, darling.

[Fredward]

I'd just like to say that if someone could forward an argument that gender actually exists in a tangible way outside of a set of changeable beliefs I might agree, but I have yet to here a compelling argument that gender means anything at all outside of the value that we ascribe to it.

[Han Shot First]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call Krem one of the worst characters in the series. But I do think he's overrated. Krem is a relatively minor and uninteresting character. Some of the banter with the Iron Bull also felt more like a public service announcement than natural dialogue in the game world. It also didn't help that the Qun got a little bit of a rewrite in order to accommodate Krem.

 

In contrast I thought Dorian's content was much better handled. Like Krem it deals with modern issues, but it does it in a much less ham-fisted manner. And it doesn't alter in way how Tevinter was presented previously. In fact Dorian & his father's falling out, if anything, was in keeping with the lore on Tevinter.

[Colonelkillabee]

I'd just like to say that if someone could forward an argument that gender actually exists in a tangible way outside of a set of changeable beliefs I might agree, but I have yet to here a compelling argument that gender means anything at all outside of the value that we ascribe to it.

People already know where I stand on the gender thing involving Krem, and know who I agree with, so I'm not getting into that.

 

But this here, this is false.

 

There are very real very obvious differences between a man and a woman, and if they were truly unimportant, we wouldn't be born with coding recognizing those differences specifically for procreation.

 

Edit:

 

Compare something that is false, not tangible, like race. If humans didn't care about the color of people's skin from the beginning, we'd be no worse for wear. Arguably better even since diversity's good for the ol' gene pool.

 

If we couldn't tell the difference between a man and a woman... or we didn't care about them... society would be looking rather shakey, if we ever even got to that point.

 

People can call themselves whatever they want now and it's fine because our society is safely established enough to allow it.

Modifié par Colonelkillabee, 04 février 2015 - 11:58 .

[daveliam]

Like I said, not watching the video lol. But yeah if its the right conversation it felt even longer than 15 minutes...

 

I think this is pretty telling.  Krem's "LGBT" content clocks in at about 3 minutes.  But it felt like more to some people.  It's why I will never understand people (not the person who I'm replying to, per se) who claim that the LGBT content in DA: I is overwhelming.  Outside of romance content (which, if you are claiming that there's too much LGBT content, you probably aren't doing a s/s romance), there's about 3 minutes of dialogue with Krem; about 5 minutes of dialogue with Dorian; a handful of side conversations about Celene and Briala; and a few extremely minor NPCs that you can overhear.  It's, literally, about 10 minutes worth of LGBT content in a game that has 6000+ minutes of content.  But, to some people, they still claim that it's too much.  It's perception; not reality.

 

People already know where I stand on the gender thing involving Krem, and know who I agree with, so I'm not getting into that.

 

But this here, this is false.

 

There are very real very obvious differences between a man and a woman, and if they were truly unimportant, we wouldn't be born with coding recognizing those differences specifically for procreation.

 

Gender =/= biological sex.  I agree completely with your stance about biological sex.  Krem is biologically female.  But gender isn't biological sex.  It's a social construct, which is why gender expression and gender identity are different in different cultures and throughout time.  A person who identifies as "male" isn't claiming to be biologically male.  They are taking up male gender identity and roles, both of which are not biological, but psychological, in nature.  Were gender roles biologically influenced in the past (i.e. females are domestic to raise children)?  Sure.  But in today's society, there's no need for them, which is why you are seeing many people challenge them and still be able to live perfectly normal, functional lives. 

 

You don't have to respect someone's request around their gender identity (although, for the life of me, I still can't understand why you wouldn't as it costs you nothing and potentially benefits the other person greatly), but your assertion that it's based around procreation is false. 

[DuskWanderer]

Honestly, in this day and age, does it truly matter? Women have been working outside the home for decades (they did beforehand, even Caesar said women have been great rulers) and men often take care of child (stay-at-home dads have been on the rise since the manufacturing bust)

 

I think the trans put too much focus on "gender". Trans men and women aren't men and women. They should focus on being themselves. They aren't biologically men and women, but I wouldn't care about that unless I was trying to sleep with you.

[Colonelkillabee]

Gender =/= biological sex.  I agree completely with your stance about biological sex.  Krem is biologically female.  But gender isn't biological sex.  It's a social construct, which is why gender expression and gender identity are different in different cultures and throughout time.  A person who identifies as "male" isn't claiming to be biologically male.  They are taking up male gender identity and roles, both of which are not biological, but psychological, in nature.  Were gender roles biologically based in the past (i.e. females are domestic to raise children)?  Sure.  But in today's society, there's no need for them, which is why you are seeing many people challenge them and still be able to live perfectly normal, functional lives. 

 

You don't have to respect someone's request around their gender identity (although, for the life of me, I still can't understand why you wouldn't as it costs you nothing and potentially benefits the other person greatly), but your assertion that it's based around procreation is false. 

 

First, I specifically said I wasn't going into it with Krem because it's already been established what I think about that. Second, I AM respecting Krem's gender identity because I just call Krem Krem to avoid any sticky pronoun situations. I am not going into Krem and Krem's specific gender identity.

 

As for the rest, gender is defined by biological sex, and people decide to ignore that because as you said, social issues.

 

I'm not going to go into what people claim to be and if they believe it because that would be calling others liars and that's not what I'm trying to do, but there are in fact people who claim they are biologically this or that, because people think their minds were born male or female and they use that to define it.

 

Reason being if people all said what you said, then opponents of it would start using that as a reason to call people like Krem what they want, so to avoid it, a lot of people just say "No, he IS (X) no if ands or buts".

 

You see where it gets sticky? It's a damned if you do damned if you don't thing. I personally get the difference between a social and a biological thing, but not everyone does, and not everyone recognizes them specifically for the reason I said, which is why even in the LGBT community, they don't agree.

[Fredward]

People already know where I stand on the gender thing involving Krem, and know who I agree with, so I'm not getting into that.

 

But this here, this is false.

 

There are very real very obvious differences between a man and a woman, and if they were truly unimportant, we wouldn't be born with coding recognizing those differences specifically for procreation.

 

Edit:

 

Compare something that is false, not tangible, like race. If humans didn't care about the color of people's skin from the beginning, we'd be no worse for wear. Arguably better even since diversity's good for the ol' gene pool.

 

If we couldn't tell the difference between a man and a woman... or we didn't care about them... society would be looking rather shakey, if we ever even got to that point.

 

People can call themselves whatever they want now and it's fine because our society is safely established enough to allow it.

 

Daveliam already said it better than I could but yeah. There are tangible differences between men and women, biologically. Arguably this can make them better suited for certain tasks. Gender however is a set of beliefs, expectations and behaviours TIED to sex but rarely do they make any sense because gender is also tied up in things like religion and tradition. It's messy and nonsensical. And the world would not be worse of if these attributions based off sex were swapped around or changed or a higher emphasis was put on something different, it would just change. And they do, regularly. And anything that is so mutable and changeable and without real benefit or detriment does not mean  anything, they do not need to be followed, they do not need to respected, they can ignored or conformed to because at the end of the day they mean very little tangibly. Although societally they mean quite a bit. But that's a different thing.

[Colonelkillabee]

Daveliam already said it better than I could but yeah. There are tangible differences between men and women, biologically. Arguably this can make them better suited for certain tasks. Gender however is a set of beliefs, expectations and behaviours TIED to sex but rarely do they make any sense because gender is also tied up in things like religion and tradition. It's messy and nonsensical. And the world would not be worse of if these attributions based off sex were swapped around or changed or a higher emphasis was put on something different, it would just change. And they do, regularly. And anything that is so mutable and changeable and without real benefit or detriment does not mean  anything, they do not need to be followed, they do not need to respected, they can ignored or conformed to because at the end of the day they mean very little tangibly. Although societally they mean quite a bit. But that's a different thing.

 

 

Let me put it this way, because I do believe there is a common ground of understanding for us in this thread at the very least.

 

I don't agree necessarily on the tangible angle, BUT I do agree that in our society, it's not that important and yes it is very much a huge social issue.

 

It seems that we here can agree and we know that biological sex is how we define gender scientifically, but in society, like race and so on, it is less rigid, and it is something that people know is a socially tied thing.

 

In other words, not everyone is claiming that people are men or women factually because they are trans and want to be, but because it is simply respectful to do so. I would be fully on board with that if more people treated it this way, rather than trying to force it down as a fact in all aspects period. Not saying Bioware is doing this, and unfortunately I think people from both sides of this are bringing in extra feelings outside of this conversation here, which is why I never even expected Daveliam to say what he said about Biological sex. Color me surprised, not many people would actually say that.

 

Anyway like I said, this is indeed a social issue, and I don't have the need to call someone out of what they want to be called, which is why I stick to calling Krem Krem. It's easier since where I'm from, referring to Krem as he is very alien, and I'd slip up even more trying that anyway, if I was inclined to do so in the first place.

I admit, the whole practice is not something I sign on to at all, and I'd prefer people stick to biological definitions, but they don't and I'm not that uptight to care enough to tell everyone about it every chance I get. Hence why to me, Krem is just Krem.

 

 

edit: Well, I might've spoken too soon on bioware, as I mentioned with Sten who seems to go against what's said in DA I, but whatever.

[daveliam]

Let me put it this way, because I do believe there is a common ground of understanding for us in this thread at the very least.

I don't agree necessarily on the tangible angle, BUT I do agree that in our society, it's not that important and yes it is very much a huge social issue.

It seems that we here can agree and we know that biological sex is how we define gender scientifically, but in society, like race and so on, it is less rigid, and it is something that people know is a socially tied thing.

In other words, not everyone is claiming that people are men or women factually because they are trans and want to be, but because it is simply respectful to do so. I would be fully on board with that if more people treated it this way, rather than trying to force it down as a fact in all aspects period. Not saying Bioware is doing this, and unfortunately I think people from both sides of this are bringing in extra feelings outside of this conversation here, which is why I never even expected Daveliam to say what he said about Biological sex. Color me surprised, not many people would actually say that.

Anyway like I said, this is indeed a social issue, and I don't have the need to call someone out of what they want to be called, which is why I stick to calling Krem Krem. It's easier since where I'm from, referring to Krem as he is very alien, and I'd slip up even more trying that anyway, if I was inclined to do so in the first place.

I admit, the whole practice is not something I sign on to at all, and I'd prefer people stick to biological definitions, but they don't and I'm not that uptight to care enough to tell everyone about it every chance I get. Hence why to me, Krem is just Krem.

Why are you surprised I brought up biological sex, out of curiosity? Not looking for a fight here, just curious about that statement.

With regard to the rest, I'm not transgendered either. I don't fully 'get it' either. But I'm trying to understand it because it's a perspective that I can never have and it deeply affects the way trans people see the world. My view on it is that it costs me nothing to use their preferred gender identity. But it is psychologically damaging to them to constantly be bombarded with people questioning or denying their identity. It's my goal to actively work on NOT being someone who makes them feel bad about themselves on account of their gender identity. It's why you see people defending Krem with the 'he IS a man' lines. It's because there are many trans people on the boards and refusing to respect Krem, whether intentional or not, is refusing to respect them too. There ARE. A lot of emotions tied up in this, I tend to err on the side of respect. I don't feel it's my place to tell someone that the way that they identify is incorrect. That's my take on it.

[Ieldra]

Krem's ok. Good interaction, nice involvement in some missions, fun to talk with. No issues here.

However, I don't buy that "social gender" hypothesis. If, being biologically a woman, you want to be a man in everything but your biology, then your "social gender" isn't the issue but rather society's gender roles which wrongly circumscribe the acceptable for each gender. If it was normal and accepted for a woman to behave and dress like Krem, if it was truly irrelevant who you're attracted to and who you make love with and how, there would be no need for an artificial construct of "social gender". If calling someone "he" instead of "she" wouldn't invoke a lot of preconceptions along with its denotative meaning, there would be no issue. If a woman chooses to behave like a man in everything, to the point that I won't even recognize her as a woman in everyday interaction, that's fine with me. It may be cause of some confusion but really, I don't have the slightest problem with it. The other way round, the same. I don't even need to know what's under the clothing. But don't expect me to call her "he", because well, pronouns as applied to people actually refer to your biology.

The thing is, you can't just ignore biology. If you don't believe that, try it the next time you visit a doctor. I'm all for being able to change your nature at will if technology permits it. Change biology all you want, it's all fine with me and I will always support your right do it and refer to you as a man if you've changed yourself into one. But you *ignore* biology at your peril.

And as for language, if a language needs to adapt to new realities, it needs new terms. Using old terms the wrong way won't do.

[Panda]

I don't think not fitting to gender roles means being transgender. That would mean tomboys are men and lot of women who see themselves as women would suddenly be seen as men as well. Heck, that would mean that I'm man as well XD Same other way around with feminine men.

[I present Chuck Bass]

So if a character is gay or transgender, their story is about them being gay or transgender, which is conspicuous and totally not cool. But, if a character is straight, their story is just normal, so therefore it's cool. I'm learning so much from BSN.

Nope I can't recall ever saying this or implying this.

[Colonelkillabee]

Snip

I'm surprised because every discussion I've ever had about it, people seem to fail to understand that there is indeed a difference between our social constructions and biology.

You present it with an intellectually honest side, which I appreciate. However, people need to realize that we all come from different cultures and societies. In mine, this is a very big deal, and people don't really let you just identify with what you want to identify as. Here, you are who you are. That attitude may be wrong to some, but to others that's just life and it feels intellectually dishonest to go along with that when you've been taught the opposite since birth from schools and everywhere else.

Now, I'm smart enough not to always fall in line with **** taught by public schools, hence why I am just calling krem, krem, even if it's a bit clunky, but for others, if you want more people to see this as a respect thing, people need to cease with the (joe IS a (x) ) because it really just makes me want to shut down. Especially me because I don't let anyone tell me a damn thing without questioning it.

People should be respectful, but they should know better than to try forcing their views on people. That's my number one problem with people we label as "sjw".

They may think that people should just accept their way of thinking but that's not how the world works. It's good that krem brings this debate up. More people might agree that this is worth respecting regardless of personal views if the discussion is allowed to take place without either side forcing their view, since tbh that goes both ways.

[I present Chuck Bass]

I have hard time seeing how Krem could be cliche or trope since I haven't seen character like him in any game before. To be cliche or trope there should be lot of similar characters around.

We aren't limiting the cliche to just video games, that would be dumb.

[Ieldra]

I don't think not fitting to gender roles means being transgender. That would mean tomboys are men and lot of women who see themselves as women would suddenly be seen as men as well. Heck, that would mean that I'm man as well XD Same other way around with feminine men.

No, but wouldn't you see a transgender as a more extreme version of someone engaging in behaviour opposed to his gender's stereotype? And this actually points out the difficulty I have with this: eventually, the terms "man" and "woman" will cease to have any meaning, since anyone can call themselves anything and expect to be "respected" as such. Sorry, not with me. Words do matter, and terms have meanings. Also, I respect people for what they do, not for what they are. Or want to be. My use of my own language is my own domain. It's the same with faith. I don't need to respect anyone's faith. If I think it's BS, I reserve the right to say so. What I *do* respect is their right to hold it, regardless of what I think about it. Or anyone's right to act in accordance or in opposition to any societal preconception whatsoever.

[Fandango]

Krem was a moderately entertaining NPC who just happened to be trans. No biggie. \thread