372 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

Krem was a moderately entertaining NPC who just happened to be trans. No biggie. \thread

And is voiced by Jennifer Hale. Jennifer Hale is major win.

[Br3admax]

I think this is pretty telling.  Krem's "LGBT" content clocks in at about 3 minutes.  But it felt like more to some people.  It's why I will never understand people (not the person who I'm replying to, per se) who claim that the LGBT content in DA: I is overwhelming.  Outside of romance content (which, if you are claiming that there's too much LGBT content, you probably aren't doing a s/s romance), there's about 3 minutes of dialogue with Krem; about 5 minutes of dialogue with Dorian; a handful of side conversations about Celene and Briala; and a few extremely minor NPCs that you can overhear.  It's, literally, about 10 minutes worth of LGBT content in a game that has 6000+ minutes of content.  But, to some people, they still claim that it's too much.  It's perception; not reality.

 

 

Gender =/= biological sex.  I agree completely with your stance about biological sex.  Krem is biologically female.  But gender isn't biological sex.  It's a social construct, which is why gender expression and gender identity are different in different cultures and throughout time.  A person who identifies as "male" isn't claiming to be biologically male.  They are taking up male gender identity and roles, both of which are not biological, but psychological, in nature.  Were gender roles biologically influenced in the past (i.e. females are domestic to raise children)?  Sure.  But in today's society, there's no need for them, which is why you are seeing many people challenge them and still be able to live perfectly normal, functional lives. 

 

You don't have to respect someone's request around their gender identity (although, for the life of me, I still can't understand why you wouldn't as it costs you nothing and potentially benefits the other person greatly), but your assertion that it's based around procreation is false. 

The agenda in this aside that I feel no way or the other about, Krem's content doesn't feel long because it's LGBT related. It feels long because it's boring. It's not LGBT content, it's content that happens to be related to LGBT. That content is boring and lacking, and honestly I really wish people would actually look at it objectively. Give Krem a penis and most of the fanbase for this character would evaporate. 

[Fandango]

And is voiced by Jennifer Hale. Jennifer Hale is major win.

No doubt.

[Kulyok]

I think the tradition of "let me tell you five boring stories about something and yep, I've just exhausted my dialogue, sorry!" is a bad tradition, period. All those stories about the Chargers could have fit into a nice lovely CODEX ENTRY. Same for "let me tell you about Tevinter's social structure". I think the part about a little girl watching her her father shave was a lovely, touching one, and we need to have more moments like that. Not boring stories about spiders and random nobles.

[daveliam]

The agenda in this aside that I feel no way or the other about, Krem's content doesn't feel long because it's LGBT related. It feels long because it's boring. It's not LGBT content, it's content that happens to be related to LGBT. That content is boring and lacking, and honestly I really wish people would actually look at it objectively. Give Krem a penis and most of the fanbase for this character would evaporate. 

Yeah, let me be clear, since it's been a few pages since I said it:  I agree that Krem is a boring character.  And I agree that he's boring outside of his gender identity.  The fact that he's the first trans character in the series is interesting to me, since it gives us a perspective on how two different cultures deal with trans people.  However, the problem is that people see one of those as a major retcon and the other as more "Tevinter = bad guys" stuff.  I'll say this:  The story that he tells about 'shaving' with his Dad was a nice touch and added a level of humanity to the character and his story.  But.....that's about it for him.  Outside of that, pretty dull.

 

I can take him or leave him.  I'm very neutral about the character.  But I'm not seeing the problem with people liking him because he's trans.  So what?  People like minor characters all the time.  People like Harding and it's because she's a cute dwarf gal.  Her backstory is virtually non-existent (she was a shepherd; that's all we know) and she adds very little to the plot.  But people like her and they are allowed to like her without being criticized.  So I'm not seeing why people need to start threads criticizing this particular character and questioning the intentions of his fans, when other minor characters (Harding, Abelas, Barris, etc.) go unscathed.  I guess that's what I'm not understanding. 

[Angry_Elcor]

Man, I wish Greywinter wasn't banned.  His response to this would have been worth at least three gifs. 

 

I will bear this in mind. I will make it my goal to accomplish one of this lofty "three gif posts."

[Angry_Elcor]

Nope I can't recall ever saying this or implying this.

 

I wasn't aware that everything I post is about you, so thanks for letting me know.

[leadintea]

I agree wholeheartedly with daveliam. I like Krem, but he is kinda boring and if he wasn't trans, I doubt a lot of people would care about him either. I also feel the same about Barris. He's a nice enough guy but I think people just go on about him just because he's black. If Fletcher took Barris' place as spokesman of the Templars, people wouldn't care that much about him compared to Barris, because he's a nice, but boring guy who happens to be white.

[Colonelkillabee]

Yeah, let me be clear, since it's been a few pages since I said it:  I agree that Krem is a boring character.  And I agree that he's boring outside of his gender identity.  The fact that he's the first trans character in the series is interesting to me, since it gives us a perspective on how two different cultures deal with trans people.  However, the problem is that people see one of those as a major retcon and the other as more "Tevinter = bad guys" stuff.  I'll say this:  The story that he tells about 'shaving' with his Dad was a nice touch and added a level of humanity to the character and his story.  But.....that's about it for him.  Outside of that, pretty dull.
 
I can take him or leave him.  I'm very neutral about the character.  But I'm not seeing the problem with people liking him because he's trans.  So what?  People like minor characters all the time.  People like Harding and it's because she's a cute dwarf gal.  Her backstory is virtually non-existent (she was a shepherd; that's all we know) and she adds very little to the plot.  But people like her and they are allowed to like her without being criticized.  So I'm not seeing why people need to start threads criticizing this particular character and questioning the intentions of his fans, when other minor characters (Harding, Abelas, Barris, etc.) go unscathed.  I guess that's what I'm not understanding.

Once again I appreciate your honesty on all of it. And you're right, there isn't anything wrong with liking a minor character for this reason, because Krem is a minor character. I like Scout Harding because she's cute as hell and moreover she's a cute as hell Dwarf. There's not much to her other than that and she's pleasing to talk and flirt with.

I looked down on the idea of people paying attention to Krem for being trans because of the whole culture and agenda that Bioware forum goers generally attach to that sort of thing, and also because people pretended like Krem was this amazingly fantastic character and being me, I can't help but squint at the BS of that. Opinions are opinions, but in a public forum when you say things, people are going to want to respond, discuss and question it. Last time I asked why, I couldn't even get a straight answer and I was treated like a troll for asking. I mean, if you ask me why I like Cassandra, Dorian or whoever, I can tell you exactly why. Even in Dorian's case where part of the reason I like him is because he's gay believe it or not, but mainly because he's gay without that being so important to his story that it's always brought up. I can accept that he's gay without ignoring it, and easily not care because his story is about his gripe with his people and his nationalism despite it. He's a great character.

If people would just be honest as to why they liked Krem, whether it really was because Krem is trans, or because they liked Krem's stories, were attracted to Krem, whatever, then there'd be less people asking "Why?"

But it is hard to get that answer sometimes. People know what they're thinking, and they avoid being truthful because they see it as a challenge to their sensibilities or their views.

[Colonelkillabee]

I agree wholeheartedly with daveliam. I like Krem, but he is kinda boring and if he wasn't trans, I doubt a lot of people would care about him either. I also feel the same about Barris. He's a nice enough guy but I think people just go on about him just because he's black. If Fletcher took Barris' place as spokesman of the Templars, people wouldn't care that much about him compared to Barris, because he's a nice, but boring guy who happens to be white.

I myself am biracial, black and white and I wholeheartedly agree with this. That's fine if people like him partly or totally for that reason. I see people who say they like him also for being a good templar and so on, but I do wonder if he wasn't black, if he'd get the same attention. I personally stray away from liking characters for reasons like that because I'm keenly aware of such things and I find it annoying personally unless the character is genuinely well written like Lee from the Walking Dead, because I know if they're not, other people will roll their eyes at it and move on.

[I present Chuck Bass]

I wasn't aware that everything I post is about you, so thanks for letting me know.

Oh, I wasn't aware you were talking to no one/about anyone, thanks for letting me know.

Irrelevant posts are much of the charm that is BSN.

[daveliam]

....Lee from the Walking Dead......

 

Lee was the ****!

 

My husband, who does not play any games outside of trivia and game show games, overheard me playing TWD and came in to watch me play (which he never does) and he fell in love with Lee.  He still brings up Lee.  In fact, he can't eat a clementine without saying the word in Lee's voice.

[Colonelkillabee]

Lee was the ****!

 

My husband, who does not play any games outside of trivia and game show games, overheard me playing TWD and came into watch me play (which he never does) and he fell in love with Lee.  He still brings up Lee.  In fact, he can't eat a clementine without saying the word in Lee's voice.

Yep, Lee and Clementine are fantastic examples of characters who are just genuinely awesome and badass characters, who just happen to be minorities and one female. Bioware for the most part does that too if I'm honest. Vivienne, Dorian, just good characters.

 

Well, depending on who you ask, but to me I love them. Vivienne's such a ******, lol, and I missed that from the days of Morrigan and Alistair.

[I present Chuck Bass]

Yeah, let me be clear, since it's been a few pages since I said it: I agree that Krem is a boring character. And I agree that he's boring outside of his gender identity. The fact that he's the first trans character in the series is interesting to me, since it gives us a perspective on how two different cultures deal with trans people. However, the problem is that people see one of those as a major retcon and the other as more "Tevinter = bad guys" stuff. I'll say this: The story that he tells about 'shaving' with his Dad was a nice touch and added a level of humanity to the character and his story. But.....that's about it for him. Outside of that, pretty dull.

I can take him or leave him. I'm very neutral about the character. But I'm not seeing the problem with people liking him because he's trans. So what? People like minor characters all the time. People like Harding and it's because she's a cute dwarf gal. Her backstory is virtually non-existent (she was a shepherd; that's all we know) and she adds very little to the plot. But people like her and they are allowed to like her without being criticized. So I'm not seeing why people need to start threads criticizing this particular character and questioning the intentions of his fans, when other minor characters (Harding, Abelas, Barris, etc.) go unscathed. I guess that's what I'm not understanding.

Did I criticize Krems fans in my original post or question their intentions? Or is my thread not included in your generalization?

[daveliam]

Did I criticize Krems fans in my original post or question their intentions? Or is my thread not included in your generalization?

 

You criticized Krem in your original post.  And then others jumped in to question the intentions of his fans (only liking him because he's trans and not being honest about it). 

 

Frankly, I find it odd that you criticize Krem as being overrated, but then post in another thread just yesterday that you think Harding is great and should be a romance option for straight guys.  Just seems you are doing exactly what you claim others are doing.  Harding is no more well-defined than Krem is, yet you see no problem with her characterization.  I'm sure it makes sense to you, but, to me, it seems contradictory.  That's all.

[I present Chuck Bass]

You criticized Krem in your original post. And then others jumped in to question the intentions of his fans (only liking him because he's trans and not being honest about it).

Frankly, I find it odd that you criticize Krem as being overrated, but then post in another thread just yesterday that you think Harding is great and should be a romance option for straight guys. Just seems you are doing exactly what you claim others are doing. Harding is no more well-defined than Krem is, yet you see no problem with her characterization. I'm sure it makes sense to you, but, to me, it seems contradictory. That's all.

See you take one thing I say and then assume a whole bunch. Just because I want to romance Harding doesn't mean I think she's a good character, my dwarf just wanted another dwarf to romance. How you can claim a contradiction with as little as you know is beyond me.

[Fandango]

See you take one thing I say and then assume a whole bunch. Just because I want to romance Harding doesn't mean I think she's a good character, my dwarf just wanted another dwarf to romance. How you can claim a contradiction with as little as you know is beyond me.

Yours was a request for another straight romance, not a Dwarven one Chuck. You're on your arse lad!

[daveliam]

See you take one thing I say and then assume a whole bunch. Just because I want to romance Harding doesn't mean I think she's a good character, my dwarf just wanted another dwarf to romance. How you can claim a contradiction with as little as you know is beyond me.

 

It does seem contradictory to me.  You want Harding as a romance option and go as far as to say that quantity is more important to you in that context than quality.  But then you complain about Krem because you don't like the quality of his characterization.  Look, I'm just pointing out that you are doing the same thing with Harding that you are accusing others of doing with Krem.  I'm not doing it to "call you out".  I'm doing it to put it into context for you.  Maybe others feel about Krem how you feel about Harding.  And that's perfectly fine. 

[I present Chuck Bass]

Another 8 pages of crap, why so much interest in a character you find boring. Does it really bother you this much that trans people have a character that makes them feel good about themselves, well at least right up to the point that you read this drivel and get to hear over and over about killing the character. Before you say it I'm not insinuating anything about intentions for killing him and the rest of the chargers as it's a decision in the game. All I'm saying is hearing the one positive character that most of us have ever seen killed over and over and being cut down constantly is hurtful to someone that's already struggling with self worth.

When I came out I thought maybe I could help people understand us but really there is no understanding without experiencing what it's like to grow up this way.

So this is it for me it's just more than I can take I'm out.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about, most have complained about Krem as a character, not his gender identity or any of that nonsense. I have only seen but a few take any dig regarding his gender identity . Personally, I just dislike his story arc and his clunky dialogue. When I would talk to him I was bored and felt like it was all a bit cliche at times.

Just because he's trans, doesn't mean he isn't open to criticism just like every other character.

[Br3admax]

It does seem contradictory to me.  You want Harding as a romance option and go as far as to say that quantity is more important to you in that context than quality.  But then you complain about Krem because you don't like the quality of his characterization.  Look, I'm just pointing out that you are doing the same thing with Harding that you are accusing others of doing with Krem.  I'm not doing it to "call you out".  I'm doing it to put it into context for you.  Maybe others feel about Krem how you feel about Harding.  And that's perfectly fine. 

Yes. Harding is also kind of meh. Definitely not on her bandwagon either. 

[I present Chuck Bass]

It does seem contradictory to me. You want Harding as a romance option and go as far as to say that quantity is more important to you in that context than quality. But then you complain about Krem because you don't like the quality of his characterization. Look, I'm just pointing out that you are doing the same thing with Harding that you are accusing others of doing with Krem. I'm not doing it to "call you out". I'm doing it to put it into context for you. Maybe others feel about Krem how you feel about Harding. And that's perfectly fine.

See Dave, that's wrong of you..Twisting my words. I said I appreciate quality over quantity every time. Then I said unless I'm playing as my male dwarf, then quantity over quality every time. Because he is a bachelor with no morals and just wants to sleep with everyone ( aka it's called role playing).

Harding is a poor character, Krem is a poor character. In my mind Krem was poorer.. And that's why this thread is about Krem and not Harding.

[Fandango]

Just because he's trans, doesn't mean he isn't open to criticism just like every other character.

Who's saying otherwise?

In any case, that you find Crems (and indeed Dorian's) characterisation to be so tedious, but are captivated enough by the treatment of Harding to ask for her to be given a heterosexual romance arc says it all I think.

[I present Chuck Bass]

Who's saying otherwise?

In any case, that you find Crems (and indeed Dorian's) characterisation to be so tedious, but are suitably captivated by the treatment of Harding to ask for her to be given a heterosexual romance arc says it all I think.

I love Dorian? He is done well, I romanced him in one of my playthroughs. My only complaint with Dorian was the dad quest. I wanted Harding as romance for my male dwarf so he could have a female dwarf to love and not have to be a bachelor anymore.


So fandango, what does this all say exactly? Seeming you know.

[Fandango]

I love Dorian? He is done well, I romanced him in one of my playthroughs. My only complaint with Dorian was the dad quest. I wanted Harding as romance for my male dwarf so he could have a female dwarf to love and not have to be a bachelor anymore.


So fandango, what does this all say exactly? Seeming you know.

Again, yours was a request for Harding to be made an additional straight romance option, not a Dwarven one.

As for Dorian, it appears that I may have had you wrong and for that I apologise.