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I have a theory....(Forgotten Ones/Dwarven Deities)


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#1
Avejajed

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Warning: This theory is inconsistent. There are big, giant gaping holes of missing information. There is a decided lack of evidence. 

 

It's just a thought I had and thought I'd share with the class.

 

Here are the codex entries I'll refer to.

 

The Primeval Thaig

 

The Profane

 

The Anvil of the Void

 

Golems

 

Let me quote the Primeval Thaig codex entry. I'll bold the parts important to this theory.

 

 

Your Majesty,

 

It's difficult getting a straight answer out of the scavenger. These sods get themselves so blighted they can't think straight, much less keep spit in their mouths. He says, however, that he's gone down into parts of the Deep Roads that are so old that our people forgot them long before the Blight even happened.

 

He spoke of great statues and temples--temples! He spoke of things that could have only been made of magic and of impossible ruins untouched by darkspawn. He described creatures the likes of which we've never seen.

 

None of it's possible, of course. I've conferred with the Shaper and he says the Memories date back to the founding of the first thaig--what could have come before that? Yes, we're unable to explore these depths the scavenger spoke of because of the darkspawn, but surely the Memories would speak of such places if they existed.

 

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made.

 

The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.

 

 

— Excerpt from a report sealed in the Orzammar royal archives by order of King Annalar Geldinblade in 8:48 Blessed.

 

Alright, so. What I get from this is that obviously there was Dwarven history before Dwarven history started being recorded. I think that's a given. But here are the parts that I find interesting within this particular codex entry.

 

 

 

He spoke of great statues and temples--temples! 

 

Temples in a Dwarven thaig before paragons means the Dwarves were worshiping...something.  

 

 

 

He spoke of things that could have only been made of magic and of impossible ruins untouched by darkspawn.

 

Magic? In a Dwarven ruin? So...the Dwarves had something they worshiped, and something that had magic- be it who they were worshiping to begin with or the Dwarves themselves. 

 

 

 

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. 

 

Okay, so we have idols made out of who knows what (Which we think now is Red Lyrium, or Lyrium that's been blighted), temples dedicated to who even knows, and magic where magic shouldn't belong.

 

This all leads up to, for me, the ancient Dwarves not only having magic, but having deities and gods of their own. We also know there were Golems there, which wouldn't make sense unless Caridin lied about having created the technology or that the Primeval Thaig had been discovered before the Deep Roads Expedition.

 

But let's think for another second about the Golems, Caridin, the Anvil of the Void, etc.

 

We don't know a ton about the Anvil of the Void...or at least how it got its name. We know it created Golems, involved pouring molten lyrium into volunteer dwarves..pretty ick, if you ask me. But why was it called Anvil of the Void? Stories say Caridin created it, but I think it goes back before Caridin. I think Caridin stumbled upon it somehow, recreated it or stole the knowledge, and passed it off as his own.  Is the Anvil made of the void? Or with materials from the void? What the hell is the void???

 

Something else was supposedly made of the void, too. Let's take a look at this codex.

 

Elven God Andruil

 

 

One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning.

 

Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn. So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.

 

When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three day and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned.

 

 

—Translated from ancient elven found in the Arbor Wilds, source unverified

 

So Andruil, an Elven God, knew about the void, how to get there, and made armor from the materials found there. Supposedly, anyway. And she hunted the Forgotten Ones.

 

Maybe let's look at those Forgotten Ones. We know less than nothing about them, really.

 

From Andruil's codex above we think that the Forgotten Ones resided in The Void. History, or rather legend, sees them as "dark" side of the Elven Pantheon, but what if they aren't elves at all?  Maybe these "Forgotten" ones are really the "Forgotten" Dwarven deities nobody seems to know anything about. 

 

Perhaps, once locked into the Void, these Dwarven deities are slowly corrupted by..something...the red lyrium, perhaps. Maybe the blight wasn't caused by the Magisters entering the Golden city. Maybe it's something much darker, much older. Maybe all the dwarves were stuck, corrupted by their own gods. This might explain the profane.

 

 

We who are forgotten, remember,

We clawed at rock until our fingers bled,

We cried out for justice, but were unheard.

Our children wept in hunger,

And so we feasted upon the gods.

Here we wait, in aeons of silence.

We few, we profane.

 

—Found scrawled on a wall in the lost Revann Thaig by explorer Faruma Helmi, 5:10 Exalted. Unknown author.

 

Anyway, in conclusion...I put forward that possibly the old Dwarven deities and the forgotten ones were one and the same. 

 

  :blink:  :P  :huh:  :lol:  :blink:

 

 

 


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#2
Colonelkillabee

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I wouldn't be surprised if these gods had a lot of crossing between cultures... I skimmed over it for now because I'm busy, but I'll read through it again in a bit. But I like it.

 

I bet if they concentrate on dwarves next, we'll find out a lot about forgotten ones and elven gods as well. Would be great in promoting the idea that gods are just gods, not reflections of mortals specifically.

 

Not only that, but that there are other gods as well, that we simply aren't aware of yet...


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#3
Avejajed

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I wouldn't be surprised if these gods had a lot of crossing between cultures... I skimmed over it for now because I'm busy, but I'll read through it again in a bit. But I like it.

 

I bet if they concentrate on dwarves next, we'll find out a lot about forgotten ones and elven gods as well. Would be great in promoting the idea that gods are just gods, not reflections of mortals specifically.

 

Not only that, but that there are other gods as well, that we simply aren't aware of yet...

 

I've been thinking this over more and more...that maybe as "gods" they aren't really "elves" or "dwarves" or whatever. More race-less entities that as each group worships slowly take on that group's features. 

 

A group of spirits (or whatever) worshiped by elves slowly become  elves through spoken legend or whatever. The group worshiped by dwarves is given dwarven features in ancient artwork, texts, etc.

 

That's why there may be so much crossover. 

 

But that doesn't explain Solas and his "people" if those people are indeed ancient Elves. I mean if he's not really an elf....


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#4
Reznore57

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There is something going on with the dwarves for sure.

In DAI , for the first time we hear about "titans" ...the dwarves Inquisitor can say "blabla Yeah I'm a dwarf , Too bad I was trying to look taller" , the OGB replies "You can't be taller without the Titans."


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#5
Avejajed

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There is something going on with the dwarves for sure.

In DAI , for the first time we hear about "titans" ...the dwarves Inquisitor can say "blabla Yeah I'm a dwarf , Too bad I was trying to look taller" , the OGB replies "You can't be taller without the Titans."

 

Someone else had a theory about that as well...

 

Hive minds and all that.

 

Maybe the Titans are the old dwarven deities....which would make sense. Corrupted over time and forgotten...that would be interesting indeed.



#6
Ranadiel Marius

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If we are going with the Titans being both the Dwarven dieties and the Forgotten Ones, I think it is worth brining up one of the writings from the Temple of Mythal which makes mention of the elves hunting the Pillars of the Earth and their souless servants in order to make the Earth bloom (which I interpret to be the Titans and proto-darkspawn). Although if the servants of the Titans were the proto-darkspawn, that raises the question of where dwarves fit into everything.

But that doesn't explain Solas and his "people" if those people are indeed ancient Elves. I mean if he's not really an elf....

Solas at least considers himself an elf as when Cole reads Solas's thoughts regarding sealing away his friends (or at least I think that is the context), Sola's tells the Inq that Cole is describing a mistake made by a much younger elf.

#7
Avejajed

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If we are going with the Titans being both the Dwarven dieties and the Forgotten Ones, I think it is worth brining up one of the writings from the Temple of Mythal which makes mention of the elves hunting the Pillars of the Earth and their souless servants in order to make the Earth bloom (which I interpret to be the Titans and proto-darkspawn). Although if the servants of the Titans were the proto-darkspawn, that raises the question of where dwarves fit into everything.

Solas at least considers himself an elf as when Cole reads Solas's thoughts regarding sealing away his friends (or at least I think that is the context), Sola's tells the Inq that Cole is describing a mistake made by a much younger elf.


Yeah, exactly. I wonder if somehow the entities that the elves worshiped became elves on expectation. Like if you imagine a spirit to be a demon it becomes a demon.

Who knows. Lol.

#8
Eliastion

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Yeah, exactly. I wonder if somehow the entities that the elves worshiped became elves on expectation. Like if you imagine a spirit to be a demon it becomes a demon.

Who knows. Lol.

I think it might be something else - I believe being a god could be a function more than race designation. SOME elven gods could well be originally elves even without that "elven gods = glorified rulers" thing, after all one thing that's consistent among tales about Ghilan'Nain is that she was, originally, an elf - the accounts of how she ascended to godhood differ wildly but the premise is consistent. The original gods could be something else entirely, though. In Origins we've met Lady of the Forest, a walking proof that a forest, despite being composed of multitude of living things, has a soul of his own. Many gods (elven and Avvarian at least) could've originally been... things. Forests, mountains, seas or lakes. Not spirits (they don't seem to act like spirits and the tales seems to hint that they're not native to the Fade) but also not mortals in the obvious sense. Some of them could become gods with "normal" mortals joining them only later on, with their help.

Either way, I would really like to see something more centered around dwarven past. But I fear we'll only get more Qunari :/
On the other hand, the whole idea of moving gods from myths to history isn't necessarily the best idea - it perhaps would be better for the setting as a whole if each religion remained just that: a religion rather than more or less accurate depiction of history. There are many fantasy settings where gods personally trample your fields if you're not faithful enough, I kinda liked it when DA was different (with possible exception of Old Gods/Archdemons, but even in their case it wasn't sure whether they are really the same entities and not just high dragons that got blighted).
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#9
Aravasia

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More Theories! I really like the idea that the Forgotten ones could be the deities that the dwarves worshiped. And despite just playing through it, I hadn't even thought of the implications that there are golems in the Primeval Thaig, but you are certainly right. Bartrand does mention that the thaig had been discovered previously, but only by scavengers, whom no-one would listen to. So, I doubt they would have brought the golems with them. There is also the consideration that the Anvil must use magic somehow, as I cannot think of any scientific explanation that would allow you to transfer the soul of one creature to another. Not to mention, the thaig is flooded with shades. We know that demons can pass through places where the veil is thin, caused by great amounts of human or elven deaths. However, I am uncertain whether the same is true for dwarves, given that their connection to the fade is sundered. So, the only other implication would be that dwarves were once connected to the fade, or that other races used to occupy the thaig, and enough slaughter occurred there to weaken the veil. 

 

I think that the prospect that Blight is older than when the Magisters entered the fade is a given, considering that in DAI, we learn that red lyrium is infected with the Blight, and the Primeval Thaig, being far older than the first Blight and untouched by darkspawn, is encompassed with red lyrium. 

 

I wonder if perhaps, rather than becoming infected with it, the Forgotten Ones were the source of the Blight. The codex you posted of Andruil sounds as though she entered the Void, and was driven mad by the Blight. Given that the Forgotten ones dwell in the Void, I would imagine that they either have some type of resistance to it, or are the cause of it.


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#10
kukumburr

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I just wanted to note that golems did definitely exist before Caridin. In his journal he claims he named them after the "legend of those great statues animated by the dead." He says he figured out how to create them from visions given to him by the ancestors. So he was definitely inspired by some lost lore, and this was lore that had already been lost during the Ancient age. I'm not sure the golems were always made the same way, but yeah.

 

I am really curious about the Void. It sounds like "the Void" and the "abyss" are basically the same thing, but is it a physical place? Is it just really deep underground somewhere? Or is it another plane, more like the Fade or the eluvian world?


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#11
Eliastion

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I just wanted to note that golems did definitely exist before Caridin. In his journal he claims he named them after the "legend of those great statues animated by the dead." He says he figured out how to create them from visions given to him by the ancestors. So he was definitely inspired by some lost lore, and this was lore that had already been lost during the Ancient age. I'm not sure the golems were always made the same way, but yeah.

 

I am really curious about the Void. It sounds like "the Void" and the "abyss" are basically the same thing, but is it a physical place? Is it just really deep underground somewhere? Or is it another plane, more like the Fade or the eluvian world?

It would definitely interesting if the dwarves were in fact survivors chased up from deeper underground by the Blight... After all, with that red lyrium idol in Primordial Thaig, it seems that they actually were in contact with Taint earlier...

Though that theory has one big "how": How did they manage to lose not only some of their more-ancient-than-ancient lore, but also records of anything related to their origins? Still, Primordial Thaig does exist.



#12
Ashagar

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I suspect the knowledge was deliberately destroyed, especially if the dwarves caused what drove them up from deeper underground, both to keep others from repeating the mistake and to hide the shame. They have shown a tendency before to strike things from the memory for various reasons before after all.


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#13
Ranadiel Marius

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Though that theory has one big "how": How did they manage to lose not only some of their more-ancient-than-ancient lore, but also records of anything related to their origins? Still, Primordial Thaig does exist.

Easy answer would be that the memories were altered to hide they didn't want to remember. After a generation or two, no one would be the wiser. Or alternatively, no one wanted to write it down. Anything that disagrees with the memories is clearly wrong after all. So the bigger questions to me is why did someone not want to remember this and when was all of this forgotten.

An alternate theory though could be that someone other than the dwarves built the deep roads and the original builders were in fact the residents of the primeval thaig and that is why the dwarves have no record of it.

#14
Eliastion

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An alternate theory though could be that someone other than the dwarves built the deep roads and the original builders were in fact the residents of the primeval thaig and that is why the dwarves have no record of it.

This one is very unlikely, I'm not sure (since I only heard about it) but I think there was some semi-official statement that both Deep Roads and Primeval Thaig were, indeed, dwarven in origin.



#15
Ashagar

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I recall the dwarves in expedition being rather freaked out by something that was clearly dwarven work but so alien to them, even more so by it not being in the memories. 



#16
Ranadiel Marius

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This one is very unlikely, I'm not sure (since I only heard about it) but I think there was some semi-official statement that both Deep Roads and Primeval Thaig were, indeed, dwarven in origin.

It was just a random thought I had while typing that I figured I would throw out. Although you do have to wonder how and why dwarves would carve tunnels so freaking high. Maybe they were taller back then......although I suppose you would then have to get into the question of is a dwarf still a dwarf if he isn't short. >.>


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#17
Avejajed

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I suspect the knowledge was deliberately destroyed, especially if the dwarves caused what drove them up from deeper underground, both to keep others from repeating the mistake and to hide the shame. They have shown a tendency before to strike things from the memory for various reasons before after all.


Yes, deliberately destroyed...I mean obviously they didn't all die off, or there would be no repopulation.
What would have been going on down there that was so terrible they wanted to erase it completely from memory?

#18
Avejajed

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More Theories! I really like the idea that the Forgotten ones could be the deities that the dwarves worshiped. And despite just playing through it, I hadn't even thought of the implications that there are golems in the Primeval Thaig, but you are certainly right. Bartrand does mention that the thaig had been discovered previously, but only by scavengers, whom no-one would listen to. So, I doubt they would have brought the golems with them. There is also the consideration that the Anvil must use magic somehow, as I cannot think of any scientific explanation that would allow you to transfer the soul of one creature to another. Not to mention, the thaig is flooded with shades. We know that demons can pass through places where the veil is thin, caused by great amounts of human or elven deaths. However, I am uncertain whether the same is true for dwarves, given that their connection to the fade is sundered. So, the only other implication would be that dwarves were once connected to the fade, or that other races used to occupy the thaig, and enough slaughter occurred there to weaken the veil.

I think that the prospect that Blight is older than when the Magisters entered the fade is a given, considering that in DAI, we learn that red lyrium is infected with the Blight, and the Primeval Thaig, being far older than the first Blight and untouched by darkspawn, is encompassed with red lyrium.

I wonder if perhaps, rather than becoming infected with it, the Forgotten Ones were the source of the Blight. The codex you posted of Andruil sounds as though she entered the Void, and was driven mad by the Blight. Given that the Forgotten ones dwell in the Void, I would imagine that they either have some type of resistance to it, or are the cause of it.


I have a separate theory regarding the fade, the Void and the veil. I'll type it into another topic tomorrow because it's not completely related to this theory, but basically I think there was magic in allll the world, and everyone had it, naturally. When the veil was put into place I believe it cut off magic from the dwarves.

Maybe that's related to the blight and the blighted lyrium somehow...I'll think on it.
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#19
xJLxKing

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I like it

 

Seeing as how the Elven Gods were using magical orb to travel to fade like realms like how we see in Inquisition the Crossroads, I think it's more likely the void is somewhere within those realms. That's not to say your theory is wrong, but at the very least those  mirrors likely are the gate way to the Void which just might be somewhere below ground like Tartarus from the Greek Myth



#20
Eliastion

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It was just a random thought I had while typing that I figured I would throw out. Although you do have to wonder how and why dwarves would carve tunnels so freaking high. Maybe they were taller back then......although I suppose you would then have to get into the question of is a dwarf still a dwarf if he isn't short. >.>

Dwarves have a complex and that's why build everything big :P 

And it's only partially a joke - there might've been a reason once, but then it devolved into tradition, a perfectly dysfunctional one, but we know how dwarves tend to kling to traditions that make little sense and are outright harmful to them, even...



#21
Heimdall

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If we are going with the Titans being both the Dwarven dieties and the Forgotten Ones, I think it is worth brining up one of the writings from the Temple of Mythal which makes mention of the elves hunting the Pillars of the Earth and their souless servants in order to make the Earth bloom (which I interpret to be the Titans and proto-darkspawn). Although if the servants of the Titans were the proto-darkspawn, that raises the question of where dwarves fit into everything.

What if these servants were dwarves that worshipped them? And their lack of magic is why the elves called them soulless? I say this in part because while I think the taint is ancient, I think the Darkspawn started with the Magisters.

Solas at least considers himself an elf as when Cole reads Solas's thoughts regarding sealing away his friends (or at least I think that is the context), Sola's tells the Inq that Cole is describing a mistake made by a much younger elf.

Possibly a part of his facade, in another conversation he mentions not seeing the elves as his people, or himself as one of them.

#22
Ranadiel Marius

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What if these servants were dwarves that worshipped them? And their lack of magic is why the elves called them soulless? I say this in part because while I think the taint is ancient, I think the Darkspawn started with the Magisters.

Possibly a part of his facade, in another conversation he mentions not seeing the elves as his people, or himself as one of them.


Dwarves used to have magic, and I am assuming that the Titans were active at the same as the Elvhan gods (I.e. before the Veil). Seems to me that this would be within the time frame of dwarves having magic. Further we know that darkspawn like creatures existed at some point prior to the first Blight due to the relief of elves fighting Darkspawn like creatures in the Temple of Mythal.

Sola's may not view modern elves as his people, but that is different than him not being an elf himself.

#23
Heimdall

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Dwarves used to have magic, and I am assuming that the Titans were active at the same as the Elvhan gods (I.e. before the Veil). Seems to me that this would be within the time frame of dwarves having magic. Further we know that darkspawn like creatures existed at some point prior to the first Blight due to the relief of elves fighting Darkspawn like creatures in the Temple of Mythal.

We don't know that the dwarves had magic and I for one don't think they did. I don't think the magical work in the Deep Roads was created by dwarves, more likely the work of these "Titans". As for the "Darkspawn-like" creatures, there may very well have been monstrous creatures, that doesn't make them Darkspawn.

Sola's may not view modern elves as his people, but that is different than him not being an elf himself.

I'm of the opinion that the Elven gods are beings unlike any we've encountered yet, not just powerful Mages, spirits or Abominations.
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#24
Avejajed

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We don't know that the dwarves had magic and I for one don't think they did. I don't think the magical work in the Deep Roads was created by dwarves, more likely the work of these "Titans". As for the "Darkspawn-like" creatures, there may very well have been monstrous creatures, that doesn't make them Darkspawn.

I'm of the opinion that the Elven gods are beings unlike any we've encountered yet, not just powerful Mages, spirits or Abominations.

I think the dwarves did have magic. Because: reasons. Also: Sandal. Lol

As for Solas et. al. being gods....

I agree with you. I don't think it matters - now- what they were before anyway. After thousands of years of immortal life...years of being worshiped as gods, for all intents and purposes that's what they are.

Think about it, even at his weakest state, Solas is still a powerful mage. Vivian, Dorian...and your inquisitor, if a mage, are all at their prime. They are skilled and talented mages who excel beyond ordinary magics. They are some of the best of the best. Solas is weak after unethera , and yet can still light veilfire with a flick of his hand, while my inquisitor has to wave her arms around like a she's drowning.

Imagine him at -his- peak. Imagine how much he knows, has seen...even if he's not "technically" a god...he may as well be.

Even if he went to the Dalish and was all like hey guys I'm Fen'Harel just a regular guy sup...they would never see him as anything but their god the Dread wolf.

:)

#25
TEWR

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(nods) Yeah I posted the same theory in the Dwarf Support Thread and I'm convinced that's what's going on ^_^

 

Also factor into account how the Dwarves "don't remember the Dwarves" per Cole.