52 réponses à ce sujet

[themageguy]

I'm interested in whether dwarven 'magic' was like that of an elf or human, or was it via a medium, like lyrium?

I mean what the dwarves can do with lyrium is absolutely amazing.

[Kadra82]

What about what Dagna discovers about the Fade, and being "really tall?"

 

Titans maybe?

 

http://forum.bioware...about-the-fade/

[Linuviel]

I'm very interested in the connection between the old gods and the Dwarves. I'm thinking specifically about the ancient Warden logbook that details how an expedition found an old god in "what looked like a Dwarven thaig". I'm thinking what if the sundering of the Dwarves and the imprisonment of the old gods are related?

[catabuca]

Has there been much discussion of Fairel? We find his story as part of the Hissing Wastes quest, and part of the resulting codex entry is very interesting. It says something like he left and fled above ground because he was fleeing from the strife his brilliance created, strife that sundered entire houses and thaigs. We know from the dating of the architecture in the Wastes that this all happened a very, very long time ago.

 

So, what if he was the first to discover red lyrium. Maybe it was lyrium that had naturally been infected by the pre-existing plague-like blight, or perhaps he purposefully infected it during experiments. Perhaps he created the first weapons and armour from this red lyrium, having no idea what would happen but knowing it was powerful. The dwarves in the ancient thaigs went mad and fought with each other as a result. He fled above ground. The people in places like Orzammar sealed themselves off. That history was lost to the modern dwarves.

 

Under any other circumstances, Fairel would have been venerated as a great paragon. As it turned out, it was all lost to history because he had no idea what he was messing with.

[Ashagar]

Paragon Fairel was the inventor of runecraft, the dwarves started making enchanted weapons and killing each other leading him to exile himself to the surface out of shame.

[catabuca]

Paragon Fairel was the inventor of runecraft, the dwarves started making enchanted weapons and killing each other leading him to exile himself to the surface out of shame.

 

I missed this. I remember the dialogue about binding spirits/demons to the stone, and them wondering how that was possible since dwarves have no magic. No connection to runecraft was made, it sounded like it was something beyond what it is known dwarves can do. The codex entry that you slowly build up in the Hissing Wastes doesn't mention runecraft - it's ambiguous what his 'brilliance' was. So have we encountered references to him before where we've been told he created runecrafting? I can find nothing on the wiki except for a link to the Wastes codex entry, which as I say is ambiguous.

[Ashagar]

We've seen previous examples though of demons being dealt with by the dwarves. the unique demonic entity known Malvernis was sealed by the dwarves by order of paragon IIona inside a orb, then there was the entity from the deep roads the dwarves cut into pieces and separated so it wouldn't come to back life and that demon spirit thing imprisoned under vigil keep also by the dwarves.

 

From what I can see in the WIki Paragon Fairel was a master smith known for his runecraft and the stuff he had buried with him was weapon schematics and a master corrupting rune as I recall which would go along with the codexes that his inventions were used in wars amongst the dwarves.

[Ranadiel Marius]

I missed this. I remember the dialogue about binding spirits/demons to the stone, and them wondering how that was possible since dwarves have no magic. No connection to runecraft was made, it sounded like it was something beyond what it is known dwarves can do. The codex entry that you slowly build up in the Hissing Wastes doesn't mention runecraft - it's ambiguous what his 'brilliance' was. So have we encountered references to him before where we've been told he created runecrafting? I can find nothing on the wiki except for a link to the Wastes codex entry, which as I say is ambiguous.

The third journal entry of the dwarf who is investigating the Hissing Wastes (emphasis added).

 

It's a Paragon. The man who lead the people here, who built this city, was master smith Paragon Fairel.

 

Legend says he died in the Deep Roads during a war between two thaigs who used his runework to build fantastic weapons of destruction. If he escaped up here, that means the records are wrong, or someone a thousand years ago tried to pretty-up the truth about his leaving. The most talented Shaper of Runes in dwarven history, escaping with his entire house to the surface—now that will fluff some beards in the Shaperate!

 

My father said our old family business used to be near an archway that was part of Fairel's Paragon statue. I wish I could have shown him this. He's the one who wanted to believe our ancestors in the Stone were still guiding us. Be nice to think it were true, old man.

 

Also the ultimate reward from the tomb that you are fighting against the Venatori for is a rune.

[frutard]

I find this topic really compelling, and I started another topic before I realised this one was here. I hope I can add something to the whole discussion, since I am relatively new to the whole DA franchise 

 

 

 

 

I am quite new to the forum, and have not been around much, in fact, this is my first post.

 

Since DAI shed some light on the DA lore, and I have read a little bit here in the forums in the past few days, I wanted to start a topic I have not encountered yet, at least not directly. Some other posts touch this question asked in the topic title, but I have not found a topic yet which revolves around it in a direct manner.

 

And also please excuse my bad grammar and/or expression, I am not a native english speaker.

 

So what it is the taint?

We know for sure that it does not came into the world because the magisters entered the Black City, although it seems certain that the magisters were transformed to darkspawn there. This we know because of the Red Lyrium Idol encountered in DAII, which was in a thaig lost for millennia, and Red Lyrium is tainted Lyrium.

 

We also know that the taint has the ability to transform living beings, and one of the features of this transformation is the ability to hear a certain song.

There is also another song, which one can hear when in connection with normal lyrium it seems, at least in DA: Asunder, Cole is also able to hear the music when the mages use lyrium for a ritual to enter the Fade (taken from http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Lyrium).

 

Cole also talks about the difference of Templars and Red Templars, where he mentions a song:

http://youtu.be/IfPyDupFXfs?t=7m41s

 

Here he states that Red Templars hear a different song, the song behind the door old whispers want open. This is an interesting statement, as it perfectly fits to something one can find in the Fade during "Here lies the Abyss":

 

"Whispers Written in Red Lyrium:"
WE ARE HERE
WE HAVE WAITED
WE HAVE SLEPT
WE ARE SUNDERED
WE ARE CRIPPLED
WE ARE POLLUTED
WE ENDURE
WE WAIT
WE HAVE FOUND THE DREAMS AGAIN
WE WILL AWAKEN

 

There are several posts regarding these whispers written in red lyrium, and many theories revolve around the question, from whom these whispers come. It may be the Old Gods which (maybe) are a part of the Elvhen pantheon (in whatever manner) or the Forgotten Ones, which would be a bit more fitting (IMO) since they where locked up in the Abyss by the Dread Wolf/Solas.

 

So, when mentioning the Abyss, then I think comes the rather confusing part:

 

 

Codex entry: Elven God Andruil

 

One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning.

 

Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn. So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.

 

When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three day and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned.

 

—Translated from ancient elven found in the Arbor Wilds, source unverified

 

So we now have as realms: The Void/Abyss and the Beyond/Fade, according to elvhen lore (the confusing part for me). But I don't want to delve in there now, as this would encompass the questions when and how the Veil was erected, among many other things. Anyhow, from the codex entry mentioned above, it seems to me that she got tainted in the Abyss and brought it to the world (--> plague ate her lands), or if not the taint as it plagues Thedas now, then maybe something similar, sort of a Proto-taint, which may stem from the Darkness in the Void.

 

Also the last paragraph describes something (IMO) we are already familiar with: Mythal (who then later fused with Flemeth) battled with Andruil and with her magic, she sapped the strength and knowledge of how to find the Void from Andruil. This maybe can be seen that she cleansed Andruil from the influence of the Void aka the taint, something which apparantly also happened with Urthemiel after the Dark Ritual in DAO.

 

It does seem to me now, that the taint is something which comes from the Forgotten Ones, who are locked up in the Abyss. I do cannot say, however, if the taint is something which was alway there in the Abyss, or something "new", what the Forgotten Ones (maybe) created because they were locked up there and want to use to have their revenge.

 

 

So what does the Song tainted creatures hear do? One of the things is that it leads them to the Old Gods. What the Old Gods are, is not important here. What is important however, is that the Song leads tainted creatures to the Old Gods. But I do not think that it is necessarily so, that the Song comes FROM the Old Gods. I like to think of it more as a GPS signal/Navigation "device", so that tainted creatures are led to the Old Gods as a means that they can also become tainted. May it be because the Old Gods (=Dragons) contain the Essences of the Elvhen Gods or not, is not that relevant, they certainly are powerful beings, and control of a powerful being is always a good thing 

 

 

So where I am heading now with this post? I am not even sure to be honest, but after reading some stuff here, it was important to me to share some of my thoughts regarding DA lore. Many things are not clear to me, as the nature of the different songs, their connections to the dwarven, magic, and lyrium, and many other important topics.

 

Anyhow, I hope some people will also share their thoughts on the matter, so please post 

 

[Helios969]

I had similar thoughts back in DA2 through the various conversations you have with Merrill that the Creators were the ancient Elves and the Forgotten Ones were the Dwarves.  I hadn't thought about a specific connection to Red Lyrium despite the initial discovery in the Primal Thaig.  DAI provides a number of subtle insights and I smell a major DLC or expansion game with a heavy Dwarven focus - Kal Sharok I'm thinking.  Dagna's conversation regarding lyrium is an important albeit ambiguous one.  I'm especially struck by the Dwarves being linked to lyrium - lyrium needs to flow, but if you're part of it, it takes you with it. so you can't be part of it.  I was reading another fan theory a while back that discussed the possibility of Dwarves at one time being golems and Caradin used the Anvil...essentially to revert them back to their "original" state (I'm paraphrasing from memory but that was the gist of it.)  If they were originally golem constructs forged (or at least partly) from lyrium that would explain the inability to manipulate lyrium for magical purposes and would explain Dagna's "really tall" comment.  It would also explain why the Elves would describe them as "soulless."

 

So Forgotten Ones (whatever they are/were) forged golems from stone/lyrium, then gave them flesh perhaps by request or as a reward of service.  Maybe Dwarves were literally from the stone, and why they venerate it.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Dagna's really tall comment was that she was as tall as a mountain. I don't recall any golems that tall, so I think that was a reference to the Titans and not the Golems.

Right now, I am thinking that dwarves might be the remnants of the Titan's physical form while lyrium is the remnant of the Titan's fade form. Although how the hell that works is beyond me. I feel like it fits, but then parts of it don't. Like the castless tattoos imply to me dwarves and elves were once one culture, and I don't know when that would fit with this idea.

[Eliastion]

(...) Like the castless tattoos imply to me dwarves and elves were once one culture, and I don't know when that would fit with this idea.

This comparison is made relatively often, but I don't think that's anything other than coincidence. After all, systems of marking criminals and/or slaves are hardly uncommon.

[Warden Majere]

So, let me start off by saying, kudos to you man, and I dig your theory. Also, I haven't read through all of the comments, so I apologize if I repeat some things that have been previously stated in this thread.

 

Shortly after the release of DA2, I came up with a theory that linked the different Gods together. It's scary how close I was on some things... I do think that the Forgotten Ones are linked to the Ancient Dwarves. Yet, I also believe that the Forgotten Ones are the Old Gods. Bare with me here, we know that the souls of the Gods can inhabit bodies of all shapes and sizes, and they can also change their shape. (Mythal, we're looking at you.) I think that it is more than mere coincidence that the Old Gods are sleeping within the Deep Roads. Also, doesn't their hibernated state seem extremely similar to Uthenera? 

 

During a dialog between Mythal and Urthemiel, I saw a sense a familiarity, almost as though they were kindred spirits (pun intended), or old friends. The connection between the Ancient Dwarves, and the Ancient Elves, goes even deeper. We learn in Witch Hunt, that after the fall of Arlathan, the Elves fled into the Deep Roads. 

 

We also know that the fall of Arlathan, and the Dwarves abandoning the Primeval Thaig happened long before the human race ever set foot on Thedas. The Tevinter Imperium was built upon the ruins of Arlathan. But, how did they learn to harness the technology and magic of the Elves? Also, how did they learn to construct buildings, statues, and bridges that have been proven to stand against time. Well, I think that after the Dwarves fled, and struck the Old Gods from the  Memories, the Old Gods sought out their last hope for revival, Humans. This would explain why the Tevinters would call their gods, "The Old Gods". 

 

This is all merely speculation, but I try to support it by in-game fact and lore. If you find any holes in my theory, please, let me know. Also, if you'd like me to get more in depth with this theory, I would love to delve a bit more into the lore, and start a separate thread. Also, here is the link to the theory that I had prior to the release of Inquisition. http://forum.bioware...nd-speculation/

[catabuca]

Dagna's really tall comment was that she was as tall as a mountain. I don't recall any golems that tall, so I think that was a reference to the Titans and not the Golems.

Right now, I am thinking that dwarves might be the remnants of the Titan's physical form while lyrium is the remnant of the Titan's fade form. Although how the hell that works is beyond me. I feel like it fits, but then parts of it don't. Like the castless tattoos imply to me dwarves and elves were once one culture, and I don't know when that would fit with this idea.

 

We've only seen golems that were made by dwarves. We haven't seen what came before the dwarves. 

 

My theory is titans were golems that then became dwarves through a process akin to the reverse of what happens when using the Anvil of the Void to create the golems we know. The exact process was different back then, and maybe involved some unknown aspect to it that was lost on Caridin, which is why his golems were the size they were.

[Helios969]

Ranadiel Marius:  I tend to think if you were less than 5ft and suddenly had the sensation of being 10-12ft tall you might feel like a mountain.  But if you want something a bit more literal based on Dagna's sensations/impressions.

 

Dagna felt mountain tall and thought all the thoughts.

 

Okay, if you contemplate the mountain as an entity unto itself (much as another poster mentioned with the Lady of the Forest,) and the veins of lyrium that permeate throughout as part of that larger whole then what Dagna is sensing is her most rudimentary origin, when Dwarven-kind were literally part of the mountain.

 

lyrium needs to flow, but if you're part of it, it takes you with it. so you can't be part of it lends me to believe Dwarves were brought into creation utilizing lyrium, whether they were golems or titans or whatever remains to be seen (if indeed we ever get to "see.")  But I think OP has come up with a good line of thinking that makes it plausible.

[Ranadiel Marius]

So I was just thinking about the Dagna quote, and something hit me. One of her lines is to the effect that she may have been a mountain only moving. It just hit me, the ancient elves had a penchant for building major buildings on top of mountains that were filled with lyrium such as the Temple of Sacred Ashes and I think Skyhold is implied to be on top of lyrium as well.

So a theory, these mountain sized lyrium deposits are actually the "corpses" of the Titans after the elves defeated them. Then the elves built their temples atop the corpses either to use the lyrium or just to show their power.

[MissScarletTanager]

So I was just thinking about the Dagna quote, and something hit me. One of her lines is to the effect that she may have been a mountain only moving. It just hit me, the ancient elves had a penchant for building major buildings on top of mountains that were filled with lyrium such as the Temple of Sacred Ashes and I think Skyhold is implied to be on top of lyrium as well.

So a theory, these mountain sized lyrium deposits are actually the "corpses" of the Titans after the elves defeated them. Then the elves built their temples atop the corpses either to use the lyrium or just to show their power.

In a similar vein, especially with what someone was saying earlier... it kinda makes sense that Lyrium in general would be the Fade part - or soul - of the Titans. We've seen that Lyrium is indeed living, and at least Primeval Lyrium / Red Lyrium can be made from living people (just look at Fiona in the Back to the Future Mage quest with Dorian). If the Titans, or gods even older than the old gods (Forgotten Ones, what have you) were the source of lyrium...

 

Okay, I play Dungeons and Dragons. In that mythos, you get your magical powers from the gods, whether through Divine providence or worship/preparation. If older civilizations worshipped the Titans or the Old Gods and gained their magical powers from THEM, once those sources died or went away, where would people gain magic from? From the same source; the souls of those they used to worship, e.i. Lyrium. Or something.

[Vuko]

I've had generally same thoughts regarding this theory, generally i agree with it but there are some things i couldn't wrap my head around.

 

Firstly, Anvil of the Void.

If we assume that dwarves had knowledge of the Void, it was long forgotten by times of Caridin. Correct me if im wrong, but in dwarven history there are no mentions of the Void, other than the Anvil. This implies dwarves didn't describe an element with it, so why would paragon use this particular word to name his creation, then? From his journal we know he received visions from the ancestors and while this could be anything, i believe he learnt of the Void and process to create golems from them.

IMO name itself comes from ability to manipulate the Void rather than being made of it. We have seen Anvil itself, there was nothing about it that would bring void to mind, just metal with veins of Lyrium on it. From Golems of Amgarrak we know that Anvil wasn't necessary to create golems, they used Lyrium Wells to do so. Perhaps the Void is a part/level of the Fade?

However it pales in comparison to stuff we've seen in DA2, Meredith animated dozen of golems using only small piece of Red Lyrium, come to think of it makes things move by itself, doesnt it? Lyrium, Blight, Void, different levels of Fade, it all has to be somehow connected. 

There's also something worth giving a thought, Caridin's heraldry depicts anvil with red substance, is it blood representing sacrifice or could it be Red Lyrium?

 

Secondly, I was wondering why would realm of Forgotten Ones was so antagonistic to elves and their gods? Logical answer would be proximity to Lyrium (especially red one) assuming it was located underground. As contact with raw substance is very dangerous, causing physical, psychological trauma or even death. Its also weird that dwarves possess partial immunity to Lyrium but red variant have the same effect on them. 

More importantly why would dwarven deities see Solas as one of their own? Lore says he was able to walk among both camps of gods, so what makes him immune to madness that consumed Anduril? If we assume that ancient elven deities were revered leaders of their people, what were Forgotten Ones? Their Drow equivalent? 

[Eliastion]

(...)

More importantly why would dwarven deities see Solas as one of their own? Lore says he was able to walk among both camps of gods, so what makes him immune to madness that consumed Anduril? If we assume that ancient elven deities were revered leaders of their people, what were Forgotten Ones? Their Drow equivalent? 

I'm no enthusiast of the Forgotten Ones = Dwarven Deities theory, but I think I can help you here. Fen'Harel being able to walk among both elven gods and forgotten ones could well be some later addition/misinterpretation. It would be enough if there was some war where Fen'Harel was relatively welcomed by both sides. Then some legends got forgotten and the war itself "disappeared" but the idea that Fen'Harel was tolerated by both sides remained. So they mixed it up with the antagonist that did remain in the lore: the Forgotten Ones. And instead of Fen'Harel that didn't really take sides in any god wars among the pantheon became the neutral party of Gods-Forgotten Ones conflict.

Or something along those lines  

[Vuko]

That's the most reasonable interpretation of elven history and its what i actually believe happened. However it doesn't really explain the difference between Anduril and Fen'Harel. To hunt Forgotten Ones goddess had to delve into the abyss and each such journey had great impact on her sanity, analogically Dread Wolf would have to do the same to communicate with them yet it did not affect him in such way. Only explanation that comes to my mind is that Solas as incredibly talented Dreamer could reach out to Forgotten Ones through Fade. In the end Fen'Harel is often presented as fade walker and his artifacts are capable of tearing the veil. On the other hand it's indicated other elven gods were capable of similar feats.

 

Generally idea of dwarven gods being Forgotten Ones doesn't seem like the most probable option but it's pretty cool and i think we all like to theorize on the lore.

[Caddius]

So I was just thinking about the Dagna quote, and something hit me. One of her lines is to the effect that she may have been a mountain only moving. It just hit me, the ancient elves had a penchant for building major buildings on top of mountains that were filled with lyrium such as the Temple of Sacred Ashes and I think Skyhold is implied to be on top of lyrium as well.

So a theory, these mountain sized lyrium deposits are actually the "corpses" of the Titans after the elves defeated them. Then the elves built their temples atop the corpses either to use the lyrium or just to show their power.

...Dude.     

[Ranadiel Marius]

...Dude.

Not sure how to take that.

However, something of an addition to the theory would be that all the lyrium underground? "Blood" of the Titans that has seeped into the ground.

[Caddius]

Not sure how to take that.

However, something of an addition to the theory would be that all the lyrium underground? "Blood" of the Titans that has seeped into the ground.

'Dude' is the highly academic and pompous shorthand of, "Well, ****. That makes sense. And that's kind of freaky. I approve." 

I've heard the 'lyrium is the blood of the Titans/Forgotten Ones' theories before, but never the notion that the elves slew them and built their temples atop their graves to harvest them. 

Damn, Elvhen. You scary. 

[Ranadiel Marius]

'Dude' is the highly academic and pompous shorthand of, "Well, ****. That makes sense. And that's kind of freaky. I approve." 

I've heard the 'lyrium is the blood of the Titans/Forgotten Ones' theories before, but never the notion that the elves slew them and built their temples atop their graves to harvest them. 

Damn, Elvhen. You scary. 

While I did include it as a possibility in my original posting of the theory, I'm not sure the elves would have done it for harvesting lyrium. The thing with lyrium, is that it seems to be used for magic by manipulating the Veil. I don't think there is anything that outright states this, but we know that both mages and templars use lyrium for their powers and we know how both of their powers work. According to Cole, mages call upon spirits in the fade who temporarily are called forth to manipulate reality. According to Solas, Templars reinforce reality making it more difficult for mages to manipulate it (or to put it another way they are reinforcing the veil). So if is lyrium is used in magic because it can weaken the veil, then I'm not sure the Elvhen Gods would have had a need for it since current speculation puts them as ruling before the Veil was created.

 

Wait a second, my brain is going in a weird direction. I'm either having a realization or I am lost in left field. Okay, so my weird thought process has left me with the conclusion that the Elvhen Gods hunted the Titans in order to create.....reality, for lack of a better term. So according to the Well of Sorrows translated Ancient Elven Writing, the ancient elves hunted the pillars of the Earth (presumably the Titans) in order to make the Earth Bloom. The final image in your mind from the writing is two overlapping spheres. Based on the in universe accepted view of existence, one would asume that the two spheres are the fade and reality with the overlap being the veil. I'm going to propose it is something different though, the first sphere would still be the fade, but the second sphere is the realm of the Titans that is referred to in Elven mythology as the Void. The overlapping area is "reality." So the Elves hunted the Titans in a realm different from their own in order to bring stability to a portion of their own realm, the temples would I guess be the center points of that stability. The veil was created either as a side effect of them stabilizing their portion of the fade or by Solas (utilizing the stabilizing energy of the Titans' corpses) as an attempt to seal reality off from....something. Ugh that thought process went out of control their, hopefully that is parsable.

[Cydh]

I think we need to put things back in perspective.

 

Kieran was taught about the Titans by Morrigan in bedside stories. Morrigan is from the Korcari Wilds, and is well, well aware of Chasind and Alamarri lore. She knows the story of the Avvar, maybe she even believes in it.

 

They speak of their own Gods: the Lady Of The Skies, goddess of birds and of death, Hakkon Wintersbreath, God of Winter, steel and ice, the great bear Sigfrost, god of wisdom, who sleeps at the foot of the mountains and whom dreamers come visits for solace in their dreams,  Imhar the clever, patron of tricksters, who taught men how to win battles with ruse, and Korth the Mountain-Father, the Father of the Skies, the strongest of the Gods, the majestic hunter who lifted the Mountains themselves, who carved the caved inside them to provide shelter for the men, and who fathered the Dwarves who live in the depths of his domain, in the Deep Roads.

 

'Tis said that Korth was so afraid of that thing called love that weakens the strongest of men and dulls the sharpest of minds, that he took his own heart away and hid it deep in the valley, and raised the Frostback Mountains around it to keep anyone from ever finding it. And the Lady of the Skies, his daughter, the Queen of the All the Birds, wanted nothing more than for her father to love once more, so she gathered her largest eagles, and her strongest hawks and her fastest falcons and ordered them...

 

well you get the drift. Or at least, the Codex - Frostback Mountains.

 

I think children love their bedside stories. When Kieran heard about Korth and saw the imagery of him it's quite natural for him to picture the dwarves a bit taller.

 

So my belief is that the "Titans" are what the Chasind name their Gods, or at least Korth.