17 réponses à ce sujet

[TeethAlmighty]

I've read conflicting advice about barriers but this seems like the forum to get a definitive answer. Could someone please, in detail, outline the pros and cons of combining:

 

Elegant Defense (active) - 4 second cool down reduction to casting barrier when barrier expires

Knight-Protector (passive) - 35% barrier decay reduction BUT limits effectiveness of Elegant defense?

Strength of Spirits (passive) - 50% barrier bonus BUT increases rate of barrier decay (possibly aided by KP)?

 

So, should I avoid KP and SoS entirely and just rely on ED to keep barrier cooldown times low? Combine ED and SoS but leave out KP? Take all three?

 

Could use some help strategizing my build here and would love to hear your take/experiences. Has anyone run builds utilizing different combos of these abilities and actually timed it?

 

Thanks!

[Drasca]

If you want SoS + KP, with WS/Gathering Storm, you don't need elegent defense.

 

If you use Elegent defense, you need mana surge, and you don't want KP, but SoS is still useful.

 

Playstyle, AND the experience to perform all playstyles, is key.

[Hex of Hell]

I've tried running with just about all of the passives, and have a build that works for me, but YMMV. I know with my Keeper I tend to not bother picking up Knight-Protector. It might depend on what difficulty you plan on playing on, but certainly with Perilous I don't really have a problem with Barriers decaying over time. The main issue is going to be enemies just straight dealing damage to your barriers as they try to take down your team. They don't really get a chance to decay over time, so the 35% reduction is pointless. I prefer to just take passives that increase the amount of damage the team can take, like Strength of Spirits and Reinforced Barrier, and then cooldown reducers like Elegant Defense, Clean Burn, Gathering Storm and Winter Stillness. Mana Surge is also pretty awesome, since it makes your next cast free - which in my case is usually another Barrier. I really like casting Barriers. 

[TeethAlmighty]

If you want SoS + KP, with WS/Gathering Storm, you don't need elegent defense.

 

If you use Elegent defense, you need mana surge, and you don't want KP, but SoS is still useful.

 

Playstyle, AND the experience to perform all playstyles, is key.

 

Okay, so this is good to know - SoS and KP combine well when paired with WS/Gathering Storm - did not look at the Primal Spirit tree in detail, but love the cooldown bonuses of WS/GS. So, with this, you get benefit of stronger barrier (SoS), nullify the increased decay time (KP) and gain reduced cool down times and mana reserves with WS and GS. Brilliant.

 

Have you tried that build? Have you found it to work as well as it looks? Is this a stronger build (in terms of strict barrier casting strategy) than an ED/SoS build combined with MS?

[TeethAlmighty]

I've tried running with just about all of the passives, and have a build that works for me, but YMMV. I know with my Keeper I tend to not bother picking up Knight-Protector. It might depend on what difficulty you plan on playing on, but certainly with Perilous I don't really have a problem with Barriers decaying over time. The main issue is going to be enemies just straight dealing damage to your barriers as they try to take down your team. They don't really get a chance to decay over time, so the 35% reduction is pointless. I prefer to just take passives that increase the amount of damage the team can take, like Strength of Spirits and Reinforced Barrier, and then cooldown reducers like Elegant Defense, Clean Burn, Gathering Storm and Winter Stillness. Mana Surge is also pretty awesome, since it makes your next cast free - which in my case is usually another Barrier. I really like casting Barriers. 

 

Good stuff! So, a vote for the ED/SoS/MS (vs. SoS/KP). I take it that WS and GS are good cooldowns to have for any kind of build.

[Drasca]

Have you tried that build? Have you found it to work as well as it looks? Is this a stronger build (in terms of strict barrier casting strategy) than an ED/SoS build combined with MS?

 

I wouldn't have told you to do it if I haven't proven them effective on the hardest difficulty settings. See my builds linked below.

[TeethAlmighty]

Ha ha - love the titles. Kudos 

 

Other skills aside, do you have a preference between ED/SoS/MS vs. SoS/KP in terms of BBB (best barrier build)?

[Drasca]

Other skills aside, do you have a preference between ED/SoS/MS vs. SoS/KP in terms of BBB (best barrier build)?

 

Technically the BBB is an elementalist since they have flashpoint (double cast rules). That's not a keeper though.

 

Nothing operates in a vacuum. I prefer ED/MS if combined with Mind Blast and Disruption field (unupgraded, but while wearing DF ring). I prefer SoS/KP on the Veilstrike GS build, as listed on my build list.

 

ED/MS/MB/DF works for mobile follow the melee close combat keepers.  The Skillstrike build works for ranged firing line keepers able to benefit from a strong standing position. Both work awesome, but work optimally in different situations, and the optimal flow of spellcasting is different.

 

There are people that criticize 'not everyone likes to play standing still', using ad hominem attacks on me to try to validate their own opinion since they cannot substantiate it with evidence. Those very same people need to L2P. If they cannot take advantage of the tools available to them, they're going to do worse than players that can.

[TeethAlmighty]

This is an interesting take on it. From this perspective, would you suggest grabbing all three? ED/KP/SOS? That is, take the stronger barrier, take the longer decay rate, and if lots of damage is being taken, the cooldown bonus from ED will kick in anyway?

I guess the part I'm not sure about is if you initially cast barrier on everyone, including yourself,and then play as a back line keeper, your barrier may not take much damage, so does this combo hinder your ability to cast more barriers on your melee from a distance (who ARE taking lots of barrier damage)?

[DBR87]

I honestly never take Knight Protector. I find barrier drops just as fast with Knight Protector while taking damage from enemies as it does with out Knight Protector. I try to only cast barrier right before an engagement and since it only decrease natural decay instead of damage decay I don't see the point in having it. I take about every other barrier passive though I sometimes skip veiled reposte.

[Hex of Hell]

I guess the part I'm not sure about is if you initially cast barrier on everyone, including yourself,and then play as a back line keeper, your barrier may not take much damage, so does this combo hinder your ability to cast more barriers on your melee from a distance (who ARE taking lots of barrier damage)?

 

While some Keepers will prefer to play from the back line, you don't have to. I certainly don't. If you have a good party who know you'll be good with popping constant Barriers, you can usually just all move as an amorphous blob behind the tank, or whoever is drawing aggro, and Barrier everyone every time. It's super fun. 

[Drasca]

This is an interesting take on it. From this perspective, would you suggest grabbing all three? ED/KP/SOS? That is, take the stronger barrier, take the longer decay rate, and if lots of damage is being taken, the cooldown bonus from ED will kick in anyway

 

No. KP interferes with MB/MS/ED synergy.

 

The only time perilous enemies will burst damage fast enough to take a fresh barrier out is during the Red Templar Commander infinite Red Knight Horror Spawning situation, shadows, and large animal charges. Neither of which a stronger barrier will help because the burst damage taken is too great vs the player reaction time.

 

If you proactively dealt with the situation with cover, positioning, etc, you wouldn't be bursted down to begin with.

 

The points are better spent elsewhere.

 

 

some Keepers will prefer to play from the back line

 

Also reread above about mastering playstyles. You can actively switch between front and back lines as necessary for maximum effectiveness. Don't limit yourself.

[TeethAlmighty]

This is sterling analysis by all - you've given some great ideas on how to play my Keeper now, both back row and close to the front lines. I'm getting a much better take on how to maximize my use of barrier (recognizing your point about how you want to  match playstyle and synergies with your other chosen skills, Drasca). I also see how KP can both help or hinder, depending on the situation and play-style. And Mortiel, your friends are more patient than mine! lol

 

Thanks everybody. Can't wait to play more with this build. Or multiple builds! Bwah ha ha ha ha! Seeya later free time!

[Drasca]

You are basing this idea on limited play-styles and a narrow view.

 

There's basically two ends of a spectrum that matter. Organized and disorganized. The former roflstomps everything, the latter has the possibility of failing no matter what you do. However, what looks disorg isn't always actually disorg.

 

 

More than one group of enemies can be pulled at once.

 

Done it. Not specifically associated with either Org/Disorg. Easy to wipe or be wiped by the whole map at once.

 

 

Archers and other DPS units can do enough sustained damage that makes every point of Barrier count.

 

They really, really, do not. They attack really really slowly (relatively speaking), and you'll lose more barrier to decay than anything else. Players can readily cast barrier in between attacks, or let your teammates eat an arrow or two under normal circumstances between barriers.

 

If the player is skilled at recast, then it is better to have a fresh barrier. If not, then KP + CD is better.

 

I've also spent a lot of time just dodging stuff, watching weapon animations and how everything targets. The game is really really generous with burst damage.

 

 

Fact is that the decay rate reduction means

 

Don't think your one size fits all model is correct either. Internal logic can be correct while the problem is incorrectly modeled and when the base assumptions are incorrect. 1 + 1 = 10 , when you assume binary's base two instead of base ten.

 

Decay rate can also trick players into thinking the barrier will last longer than it will when burst damage occurs. It is a skill based meta thing, but it occurs. When you change the base assumption that the player is not you, then the whole problem changes too.

[veramis]

wrong thread.