49 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

Arguing the potential of the knight enchanter on the basis of ONLY using the knight enchanter tree is ridiculous. It's like arguing the potential of a computer on a single feature, e.g. the cpu.

I disagree. Sure, if we were discussing the merits of the Mage class in general, then your point would be valid. Heck, I'd probably even make the same point myself. The issue is that we're not discussing the Mage class in general; we're specifically discussing the Knight Enchanter specialization. To use your own analogy, yes, we're looking at computers, but we're specifically discussing the merits of a particular CPU.

My personal position is that if the Knight Enchanter specialization is really as overpowered as people claim, then it should be possible to solo the game on Nightmare with only the Knight Enchanter tree, because everything it needs should be built into the tree. If, on the other hand, the Knight Enchanter needs to bring in skills and passives from other trees in order to solo the game, then it's not overpowered in and of itself; it's the synergies it has with other trees that are overpowered.

Now, I will admit that the difference is probably pretty minor. However, I am a firm believer in making sure that I understand the way games do things. Not only does it allow me to make better choices, which allow me to better enjoy the game; it also makes sure that the advice I offer to other players is accurate, so that they can also better enjoy their own games, as well.

[theflyingzamboni]

The best way is to stay away from the KE. As much as I like the class in theory -- it is the only melee and ranged capable class -- it is so overpowered that just makes the game a real joke to play.

I like that it allowed me to use any party combination I felt like and still play on Nightmare. Otherwise, I could have been stuck with the same group all the time, and where's the fun in that?

[Meave]

I like that it allowed me to use any party combination I felt like and still play on Nightmare. Otherwise, I could have been stuck with the same group all the time, and where's the fun in that?

 

that's not true. I really doubt you could manage dragon fight on nightmare with 4 mages in group of which neither would use spirit blade and barrier spell (if you wouldn't cheat the dragon, I mean fair fight) and I also doubt you could manage without any mage in group at all, so no, you can't have any party combination you want...

[Meave]

First, I didn't mean soloing the game as a Knight Enchanter; I meant soloing the game as a Knight Enchanter with only the Knight Enchanter tree. No points spent in other trees at all. However, that's my bad; my post wasn't clear on that, and I apologize for that.

Second, the strategy you posted is simply another example of the build doing exactly what it was designed to do. Like the Chaotic Focus build, it's an example of the synergy between the Knight Enchanter specialization and whatever else you paired with it.

EDIT: also, Spirit Blade doesn't inflict physical damage; the tooltip specifically says it inflicts Spirit damage, which is elemental.

 

you're looking on it very wrong way...

 

being knigh enchanter means having KE skill tree ALONG with common mage tree skills. You can't start the game as KE and you can't spent all of your points in KE tree so you have to pick some other skills, unless you want to have unspent skill points which is ridiculous.

 

by the same logic you could say that Sera's specialization is useless while it's the most powerful specialization in game across all three classes. On it's own it's useless cos it doesn't have any combat skill, but it enhance combat skills from other trees which makes it overpowered...

 

and for SB dmg, the dmg number that floats from enemies are yellow which is physical dmg, not purple which would be spirit. With each hit you hit for x yellow and 1/4x whatever dmg type your staff is + any dmg from rune and no enemy is immune to base dmg of spirit blade (on nightmare there are no resistances, only immunities which is kinda funny cos only skill effect that lowers resistances is missile barrage upgrade which is useless on nightmare...)

[JaegerBane]

you're looking on it very wrong way...

being knigh enchanter means having KE skill tree ALONG with common mage tree skills. You can't start the game as KE and you can't spent all of your points in KE tree so you have to pick some other skills, unless you want to have unspent skill points which is ridiculous.

by the same logic you could say that Sera's specialization is useless while it's the most powerful specialization in game across all three classes. On it's own it's useless cos it doesn't have any combat skill, but it enhance combat skills from other trees which makes it overpowered...

The point is that you're choosing which points to pick. No-one is forcing you to pick the exact combination of points that happen to make a KE overpowered, that was a conscious choice of the player. For the player to then start whining about things being OP after specifically trying to make an OP character is a bit like someone claiming that cars are inherently unsafe because they went looking to be run over.

Tempest is different because it doesn't really matter what you combine with it, whatever it is (barring a few real no-hopers that every class has) is going to come out awesome. You can't say the same about the KE.

and for SB dmg, the dmg number that floats from enemies are yellow which is physical dmg, not purple which would be spirit. With each hit you hit for x yellow and 1/4x whatever dmg type your staff is + any dmg from rune and no enemy is immune to base dmg of spirit blade (on nightmare there are no resistances, only immunities which is kinda funny cos only skill effect that lowers resistances is missile barrage upgrade which is useless on nightmare...)

No, yellow is spirit. In previous games, yellow was lightning and purple was spirit, now they've swapped. I don't know where you got the idea that it did physical damage.

To be honest, I have no idea wtf you're on about here. Spirit Blade only does Spirit damage, not physical, not your staff's damage type, not runes, not anything else. Aside from its melee nature and lack of cooldown is just a spell like the rest.

[Meave]

The point is that you're choosing which points to pick. No-one is forcing you to pick the exact combination of points that happen to make a KE overpowered, that was a conscious choice of the player. For the player to then start whining about things being OP after specifically trying to make an OP character is a bit like someone claiming that cars are inherently unsafe because they went looking to be run over.

Tempest is different because it doesn't really matter what you combine with it, whatever it is (barring a few real no-hopers that every class has) is going to come out awesome. You can't say the same about the KE.


No, yellow is spirit. In previous games, yellow was lightning and purple was spirit, now they've swapped. I don't know where you got the idea that it did physical damage.

To be honest, I have no idea wtf you're on about here. Spirit Blade only does Spirit damage, not physical, not your staff's damage type, not runes, not anything else. Aside from its melee nature and lack of cooldown is just a spell like the rest.

 

do you play the same game as I do? cos you either play other version or one of us is colorblind. When you attack with sword you'll see yellow numbers floating from enemy. If you have spirit rune in any weapon you'll see purple dmg number for the spirit component of the dmg. In DAI yellow is physical dmg indicator and spirit is purple. And if you hit with spirit blade, several numbers will flow over enemy's head if you just hit once, but if you didn't notice even this, well...

 

and for the KE? nobody is forcing you to pick any skill in case of tempest as well. If you pick all passives you hardly gonna get OP rogue... your logic is simply flawed and you act too stuborn to admit it

[Steelcan]

do you play the same game as I do? cos you either play other version or one of us is colorblind. When you attack with sword you'll see yellow numbers floating from enemy. If you have spirit rune in any weapon you'll see purple dmg number for the spirit component of the dmg. In DAI yellow is physical dmg indicator and spirit is purple. And if you hit with spirit blade, several numbers will flow over enemy's head if you just hit once, but if you didn't notice even this, well...

red is physical, purple is lightning, yellow is spirit

[theflyingzamboni]

that's not true. I really doubt you could manage dragon fight on nightmare with 4 mages in group of which neither would use spirit blade and barrier spell (if you wouldn't cheat the dragon, I mean fair fight) and I also doubt you could manage without any mage in group at all, so no, you can't have any party combination you want...

Well, with KE, mage is already covered, so the latter is not an issue in choosing a combination. Secondly, a dragon fight with 4 mages is totally doable when one of them is a KE. Knight Enchanter can solo a dragon on Nightmare, why couldn't they do it with 3 other mages? From personal experience, I killed the Highland Ravager on Nightmare on my first try using my KE Inquisitor, Solas, Vivienne (no spirit blade use), and Sera. I didn't even lose anyone. So yeah, I could have done it with Dorian instead of Sera. Once you get up past, say, level 15, playing a KE means you can use any party, any time, and still have no issue surviving a fight. Which is what some people criticize, but I liked from an RP/ getting to know companions perspective.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

KE ALONE is not overpowered at all, and would suffer the same frustrations as other melee classes. What makes it OP is it's synergy with other ability trees and, the way damage multiplier work with it. The biggest thing being Barrier, w/o that a KE is still a squisyh mage in relatively flimsy armor, with upgraded barrier and the passives that help barrier, KE becomes invincible. Toss in something to give you guard too and, the KE will never loose a point of it's base health, even on nightmare, it's god mode only w/o cheating and it can stay that way, we need one class that can do that when all else fails.

[Meave]

Well, with KE, mage is already covered, so the latter is not an issue in choosing a combination. Secondly, a dragon fight with 4 mages is totally doable when one of them is a KE. Knight Enchanter can solo a dragon on Nightmare, why couldn't they do it with 3 other mages? From personal experience, I killed the Highland Ravager on Nightmare on my first try using my KE Inquisitor, Solas, Vivienne (no spirit blade use), and Sera. I didn't even lose anyone. So yeah, I could have done it with Dorian instead of Sera. Once you get up past, say, level 15, playing a KE means you can use any party, any time, and still have no issue surviving a fight. Which is what some people criticize, but I liked from an RP/ getting to know companions perspective.

 

well I said you couldn't do it if neither of your mage used spirit blade and neither would use barrier and no barrier passive proc so yeah you can't just click anything you like and still beat the game

 

but the only class that is able to solo dragon on nightmare or 8 enemies at once even when they are higher level is KE, that is a fact and that's make the class OP compared to other classes

[JaegerBane]

do you play the same game as I do? cos you either play other version or one of us is colorblind. When you attack with sword you'll see yellow numbers floating from enemy. If you have spirit rune in any weapon you'll see purple dmg number for the spirit component of the dmg. In DAI yellow is physical dmg indicator and spirit is purple. And if you hit with spirit blade, several numbers will flow over enemy's head if you just hit once, but if you didn't notice even this, well...

I honestly don't know how to make it any clearer to you. Watch some YouTube videos if you must. Watch demonstrations of walking Bomb or Spirit Blade or Stonefist. Spirit is yellow, lightning is purple/dark blue. What's next? You're gonna tell me Solas is a Qunari?
 

and for the KE? nobody is forcing you to pick any skill in case of tempest as well. If you pick all passives you hardly gonna get OP rogue... your logic is simply flawed and you act too stuborn to admit it

You've missed the point of what I was getting at - the issue was that the KE is overpowered with a certain specific combo of skills, whereas the tempest is overpowered with anything. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.

[Mushashi7]

The Knight Enchanter has all options. Really.

Craft a staff with each element and place it in your inventory.

As for those who are a bit cranky regarding 'Spirit Blade' I have found an enormuous use of this. You can say it's overpowered. Whatever.
'Spirit Blade' is kind of a compromise for those who likes direct combat just like a warrior.

As Knight Enchanter you generate guard and mana when you're in close combat as a passive ability. This makes it possible for you to get up close with lesser risk.

Lately I stated using 'Fade Step' (ice mage ability) to get up close to an enemy very fast, and then I present him for my Spirit Blade. They haven't got much of a chance. It demands you're well armored as well. Naturally.

[Digger1967]

Could you kill a Dragon solo with a KnightEnchanter?  Sure - it will take a while, but it could be done.  The trick is to just keep doing enough damage to keep your own barrier up.  I don't play nightmare level myself, I'm still getting used to the game and I didn't grow up in a generation where hand eye coordination was considered necessary or useful.. lol.

 

But I can confirm that once you get a KnightEnchanter setup with the barrier time enhancers from the Spirit Tree and the barrier restoration feature based on the damage you do, you become nearly invulnerable.  All you do is just keep pumping out spells, my 3 favorite are Energy Barrage, Immolate and Winters Grasp.

 

The spirit blade thingy?  Eh, I don't use it much myself, but it does come in pretty handy for the Wyvern's if the dragon your facing produces them.  Other than that it's just a matter of continuing to pump out damage at a rate that keeps refreshing your barrier so you don't need to recast it.  About the only time I need to recast is when the thing goes airborne, then it's just a matter of running around and zig zagging to avoid getting hit too bad by the breath weapon, wait for it to land, recast the barrier and go back to town.

 

So yes, most likely it would be possible to take down a dragon solo - but boy you'd be in that fight for a long time.. lol.

[Digger1967]

Wait, your saying Solas isn't Qunari?

 

Huh.

 

You sure about that?

[theflyingzamboni]

well I said you couldn't do it if neither of your mage used spirit blade and neither would use barrier and no barrier passive proc so yeah you can't just click anything you like and still beat the game

 

but the only class that is able to solo dragon on nightmare or 8 enemies at once even when they are higher level is KE, that is a fact and that's make the class OP compared to other classes

What does fighting dragons with a nerfed party have to do with anything? I was talking about KE being able to have any party composition because of its skill set, so why would I be concerned with its viability when it isn't using its abilities. You seem to be saying "If you don't use what makes a class good, then the game won't be easy." Duh.

And your last sentence is just repeating what I already said. I specifically mentioned the KE's ability to solo a dragon on Nightmare. And the whole point of my original post was that I liked that it was OP compared to other classes, because then I didn't have to worry about party composition in order to be successful in combat on Nightmare, and could just enjoy novel companion combinations. I'm really not sure what it is you're trying to argue with me anymore...

[theflyingzamboni]

So yes, most likely it would be possible to take down a dragon solo - but boy you'd be in that fight for a long time.. lol.

Eh, not really. Here's a video of someone killing the 3 most powerful dragons in 30 minutes solo on Nightmare. And the most powerful is fire immune, so you can't even use Fire Trap/Immolate, which is a big part of KE dps.

[Mushashi7]

Could you kill a Dragon solo with a KnightEnchanter?  Sure - it will take a while, but it could be done.  The trick is to just keep doing enough damage to keep your own barrier up.

.
I did it. Just for fun. I fought The Higland Ravager for nearly 40 minutes. But I made him lay down in the end. In Normal mode that is.

Ok. Actually. If you use the Knight Enchanter abilities all the way throught he game it has to be a clear choice. You know how easy you will smash your enemy. The fun of combat disappears. But you can also turn it around and say now you finally have time and space for the story line instead?

[theflyingzamboni]

Also, want to talk about OP dragon slaying on Nightmare?

[stop_him]

I have fire and electricity spells since they have higher damage, but don't use any ice magic aside from fade step. So my staff is ice. That way I can spam staff attacks against any fire based enemy, but use spells for enemies immune to ice. 

[theflyingzamboni]

I have fire and electricity spells since they have higher damage, but don't use any ice magic aside from fade step. So my staff is ice. That way I can spam staff attacks against any fire based enemy, but use spells for enemies immune to ice. 

Energy barrage is fantastic with this against fire-based opponents. Also just in general for rapidly generating barrier.

[JaegerBane]

Wait, your saying Solas isn't Qunari?

Huh.

You sure about that?

Yeah, he is. If you click on his portrait really fast he turns into rogue that works 25% like a Rift Mage and does yellow lightning damage out of his eyes and biotic warps out of his ears.

[1 Zero1]

Knight Enchanter is a very fun class to play! I can solo all dragons on nightmare wich is fun! Its a power house if done correctly Fire/KN/Storm. This is my first playthrough and I turned it up to nightmare once I wen't to Skyhold and became a KE and haven't turned it down since.

 

[swk3000]

KE ALONE is not overpowered at all, and would suffer the same frustrations as other melee classes. What makes it OP is it's synergy with other ability trees.

This is the point I'm trying to make. Knight Enchanter on it's own doesn't have the damage needed to stay alive. Inferno on it's own can't generate Barrier to make every fire spell super powerful. On their own, they aren't overpowered at all. It's only when you combine the two that things start getting overpowered. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

And I'm aware that as a mage, you have access to all the basic skill trees. I was trying to make a point. Apparently, it flew right over everyone's head.

[JaegerBane]

This is the point I'm trying to make. Knight Enchanter on it's own doesn't have the damage needed to stay alive. Inferno on it's own can't generate Barrier to make every fire spell super powerful. On their own, they aren't overpowered at all. It's only when you combine the two that things start getting overpowered. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.
And I'm aware that as a mage, you have access to all the basic skill trees. I was trying to make a point. Apparently, it flew right over everyone's head.

I think part of the problem is that some people have very arbitrary definitions of what constitutes 'overpowered' and fixate on that to the exclusion of all else. So the fact a KE can solo a high dragon with a precise set of skills is clearly overpowered, while a Champion doing the same thing but requiring even less thought is not, and a tempest sidestepping the need entirely by killing it literally within 10 seconds is simply 'using your team'. There isn't much logic in it.

Then, of course, you have the people who are basically parroting what they've read on the forums and never actually properly investigated it themselves, or simply don't know what they're talking about (like that guy above coming up with the BS about how spirit blade does physical damage and a percentage of your staff's damage type, and if you don't agree with him you're colour blind etc).

Honestly, I think it's because the KE class is a popular spec given the number of threads on it. More people are playing it and assuming it's the spec that's overpowered without realising a lot of the lack of difficulty is down to the game and the way the specs interact with it. It doesn't help that the other mage specs are pretty lacklustre by comparison, but compared to some of the specs from other classes, it's simply in the upper grade.

[Forsythia77]

In my current playthrough im a KE mage using a crafted lightning staff with a spirit rune.  I keep a cold staff with a rune that does damage against the living as a back up for lightning immune enemies.  In my heart of hearts I'm a S&S warrior so it's nice to be in there with spirit blade hacking away at the dragons and whatnot.  It's a nice skill tree to have because no one is immune to spirit damage, even if an enemy is not specifically weak to it.   Plus if you upgrade SB and select the passive KE abilities you get a decent guard going that keeps you well in your health (which is good because guard still doesn't stop a dragon from knocking you to your behind).  I've focused on the cold tree otherwise, with a couple of fire spells and spirit up to lifeward to keep Iron Bull from dying.  I will say that the way I've specced my mage is not a lather rinse repeat instant death, but it is effective on dragons while still offering some challenge as long as I am not way over-leveled.  Sadly though I find with all my playthroughs that seems to happen.

 

Edited for typos.