107 réponses à ce sujet

[Pheabus2009]

I run my Ele with Barrier/Firewall/Firestorm/Winter's Grasp(sometimes I replace it with Stonefist), even with Death Siphon and Guardian Spirit, The Ele is still not that tanky on Perilous without Barrier.

[russ4ua16]

Penguin didn't you get banned?

He never acted like this guy.

 

Been running no barrier all night and I'm rarely dying. Guardian Spirit just in case, Firestorm with wall of fire just behind it, a Fire mine warming my toes, and Stonefist t o knock down anything that gets past all that. Throw in wise use of line of sight to negate ranged damage and it's super powerful.

[ALTBOULI]

Play however you want OP, one of the best things about this game is playing around with builds to fit a playing style you enjoy. That being said, I wouldnt reccomend going on Perilous without Barrier, especially when pugging. Remember that Barrier is not only used for survivability purposes, with Chaotic focus it can amplify a lot of the Elemetalists fire spells and quite significantly to.

[russ4ua16]

Play however you want OP, one of the best things about this game is playing around with builds to fit a playing style you enjoy. That being said, I wouldnt reccomend going on Perilous without Barrier, especially when pugging. Remember that Barrier is not only used for survivability purposes, with Chaotic focus it can amplify a lot of the Elemetalists fire spells and quite significantly to.

I'm running  perilous with no one throwing me barriers. I fear you are underestimating the sneakiness, sir.

[Geth Supremacy]

I'm running  perilous with no one throwing me barriers. I t fear you are underestimating the sneakiness, sir.

 

Very sneaky.

[Kenny Bania]

Drasca09 to the rescue!!!!

 

Helping n00bs become 1337!!!!

[Beerfish]

I have to admit that I hate firestorm form the Ele, even aside from the old key bug.  It's one of these abilities in which it is bloody impossible to see opponents and such if you are a assassin or melee type player.  I equate it to flamers in memp.  And with the key bug solved and the power of that ability everyone and their druffalo will be an elementalist.

[ALTBOULI]

I have to admit that I hate firestorm form the Ele, even aside from the old key bug.  It's one of these abilities in which it is bloody impossible to see opponents and such if you are a assassin or melee type player.  I equate it to flamers in memp.  And with the key bug solved and the power of that ability everyone and their druffalo will be an elementalist.

Firewall is pretty bad visually for teammates also...I was trolling a certain flamer-hating scrub with it recently

[Jkregers]

When you save flashpoint for barrier, an elementalist is as good or better than a keeper at keeping a group alive.

 

I've only played the Elementalist for 1 promotion, so I just noticed Flashpoint. It this skill as silly as it sounds? Does this mean if I have 200 cunning, I will never have a cooldown....ever? 

 

Edit - I just noticed there is a 10 second cooldown, that probably prevents spamming free spells.

[Robbiesan]

Every elementalist I've ever seen sucks at using barrier anyway. They prioritize offensive spells and don't know how to manage their mana. Might as well go all out. 

 

 

This applies to many Keepers as well.  I think it is perhaps they do not understand their role, or perhaps simply do not care.  If you have barrier, cast it first, then go for DPS.  As either Ele or Keeper, I do my best to barrier the team as much as possible, then go nuts on dishing out damage.

 

To OP, no you do not need barrier.  It's a choice for you to make.  As mentioned much in this thread, it can certainly help on Perilous, but I do not doubt you could get by without it.

[veramis]

Barrier is too powerful not to get. Bioware should make Katari viable by giving him barrier.

[Drasca]

AoE CC is better than Barrier.

Active Control over the situation is better than reactive defense.

Firewall, Mine and Storm for Ele, Static Cage, Disruption field, and Veilstrike for Keeper, Pota, SF for AW, etc all count.

 

It is better to control where your enemies are going, and not take damage at all than to try to mitigate damage with barrier. Reasons why are killzone force multiplication via aoe burst damage and primer setups for AoE CC, and taking barrier hits does not mitigate the stuns/knockdowns/slows/debuffs that come with them.

 

Barrier's nice, but secondary to CC, and not necessary to players who have a higher layer of defense: Control of the enemy. How many times have you not taken any damage, and just annihilated enemies immediately while CC is up? Static Cage --> Detonate dead enemies is an old tradition in my book. Firewall, win is another. If archers, Firestorm. If dagger rogues, stand on fire mine.

 

Easy, since you have answers to all types of enemies before they can even attack you.

[junker1990]

I have to admit that I hate firestorm form the Ele, even aside from the old key bug.  It's one of these abilities in which it is bloody impossible to see opponents and such if you are a assassin or melee type player.  I equate it to flamers in memp.  And with the key bug solved and the power of that ability everyone and their druffalo will be an elementalist.

 

Yeah, my Ele never uses Firestorm/Firewall just because of this reason. As for Barrier... well, it's just silly on him. He's all about offence, not defence.

[Jkregers]

AoE CC is better than Barrier.

Active Control over the situation is better than reactive defense.

Firewall, Mine and Storm for Ele, Static Cage, Disruption field, and Veilstrike for Keeper, Pota, SF for AW, etc all count.

 

It is better to control where your enemies are going, and not take damage at all than to try to mitigate damage with barrier. Reasons why are killzone force multiplication via aoe burst damage and primer setups for AoE CC, and taking barrier hits does not mitigate the stuns/knockdowns/slows/debuffs that come with them.

 

Barrier's nice, but secondary to CC, and not necessary to players who have a higher layer of defense: Control of the enemy. How many times have you not taken any damage, and just annihilated enemies immediately while CC is up? Static Cage --> Detonate dead enemies is an old tradition in my book. Firewall, win is another. If archers, Firestorm. If dagger rogues, stand on fire mine.

 

Easy, since you have answers to all types of enemies before they can even attack you.

 

This makes it sound like a combination of CC is better than a single barrier spell, but your original point is that AoE CC is better than barrier. Do you think one CC is better than one barrier? I don't think you can definitively say that CC is better than barrier. 

[veramis]

AoE CC is better than Barrier.

Active Control over the situation is better than reactive defense.

Firewall, Mine and Storm for Ele, Static Cage, Disruption field, and Veilstrike for Keeper, Pota, SF for AW, etc all count.

 

Not everyone can be CC'ed. Everyone's damage can be mitigated by Barrier.

Active Control and Barrier work together to maximize survivability

Firewall, Mine (or Immolate), and Firestorm can all be used with Barrier

Static Cage, Disruption Field, and Veilstrike can all be used with Barrier

Why are you mentioning AW, are you suggesting they don't get Fade Shield? LOL

 

It is better to control where your enemies are going, and not take damage at all than to try to mitigate damage with barrier. Reasons why are killzone force multiplication via aoe burst damage and primer setups for AoE CC, and taking barrier hits does not mitigate the stuns/knockdowns/slows/debuffs that come with them.

 

You can control, your teammates can control, but due to enemies being in different locations and immunity, it is often physically impossible to keep all enemies controlled. That's where Barrier comes in. Additionally, taking Barrier allows you to stand still and not waste time or break Winter Stillness moving around, and for keeper it also allows for affected teammates to have increased mana and stamina regeneration (yes, even stamina), which is a far better benefit than avoiding an occasional animation-canceling-attack because you've replaced Barrier with some kind of CC.

 

Barrier's nice, but secondary to CC, and not necessary to players who have a higher layer of defense: Control of the enemy. How many times have you not taken any damage, and just annihilated enemies immediately while CC is up? Static Cage --> Detonate dead enemies is an old tradition in my book. Firewall, win is another. If archers, Firestorm. If dagger rogues, stand on fire mine.

 

Barrier with different kinds of Active Control is best for both DPS and survivability. If you think Barrier is wasted by not taking CC or damage, how often do you think CC is wasted because enemies are being CC'ed more than they need to be? Again, CC is not the answer to everything. It can't affect CC immune enemies, and it can't affect enemies that have not been affected by the CC whether due to their location not being affected by the CC or the CC not being applied to them for many possible reasons. Barrier gives you an added level of survivability, just as CC does, and I don't see the point in becoming so "CC-focused" that you abandon the very useful tool of Barrier which could have an up-time of over 90% of combat.

 

 

Easy, since you have answers to all types of enemies before they can even attack you.

 

Barrier is the correct answer to all types of enemies, before they attack and during their attack.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Nah. If it works, it's not wrong. After all, dead enemies don't do damage, whether there's a Barrier, or not.

 

This is assuming, of course, that you can make it work.

[haxaw]

[snipped]

 

My thoughts exactly. The security that Barrier provides the entire team, at the opportunity cost of just one skill slot, is unparalleled. I PuG more often than not, so having the more robust and reliable method of support is the clear choice for me. As you say, you can't always keep the enemies CC'ed, and even if you yourself are personally safe, your teammates might not be. Barrier preempts that potential problem.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing for a Barrier-less Keeper, so the comparison is sort of moot.

 

As for the original topic, "right" and "wrong" are highly subjective in this case. The Ele's kit is so good that very solid arguments for both sides of the fence can be made (and have been made in this very thread). It's more a matter of what role you play your Ele as, as well as the meta-environment (PuG or not, average skill level, team composition), along with your specific preferred playstyle within that role.

[Drasca]

Let me remind everyone, I preface my statements that they apply with perilous in mind. You can do whatever you want on threatening and below if you're geared or skilled, though the same could be said for perilous on skilled alone (but geared alone is insufficient for perilous).

 

I do not declare never use barrier, rather it is the inappropriate response sometimes, and not always the appropriate choice to make that inexperienced players tend to think. I also declare CC is more valuable than Barrier when you are making a choice before the game (character build planning), and during (Cast CC, then barrier).

 

Not everyone can be CC'ed. Everyone's damage can be mitigated by Barrier.

It can't affect CC immune enemies

 

Untrue. There's exactly one enemy that cannot be CC'ed directly. Demon Commander. He can only be CC'ed indirectly and through stagger tricks. All other enemies can be actively CC'ed. I challenge anyone to name an enemy that cannot be actively CC'ed, and I will reply with the appropriate response. The Ele in particular has his choice of CC between KD/Stagger (SF/FM/FS/FC), Panic (FW), Freeze (WG/IM), Sleep (SF Weaken + Staff/Stormbringer/Lightning Bolt Shock  combo) and Paralyze (Static Charge--passive, not cage). Between FW and FS alone, it covers every non-commander boss available, and almost all elites (revenant is only other one not directly CC'ed by ele).

 

Secondly, Barrier will not mitigate 'everyone's damage. High burst enemy damage (shadows/horrors) will eat through anything but full barrier, and certain Elite animals (druffalo, gurn, etc), will charge, kd, and hit the player multiple times tearing through barrier. Barrier is not an effective defense when you are knocked down. That includes terrors on Zone 5 Demon Commander.

 

 

Active Control and Barrier work together to maximize survivability

 

Very true, but CC is still prioritized over barrier, as barrier decays and CC precludes the necessity of barrier. I am usually first to advocate barrier ele, because I love chaotic fire mines, but CC is vastly more important than barrier early on. By mid-teens, the Ele has both. At level 7-9? I would take WG, fire wall, mine, and storm over barrier + WG + immolate any day.

 

What is better, preventing damage off of one or two players (assuming balanced party close range + long range characters, or needing to spread out), or sealing off the entire starting room via FW? If you're clustered together, maximizing barrier, you'll be knocked down by AoE effects.

 

Barrier is OP as heck, but not totally invincible, and most of the time just wasted to decay.

 

 

impossible to keep all enemies controlled

 

For some people, but that's a L2P issue. Mind you, I am not speaking of just hard control (stun/sleep/paralyze/freeze), but soft CC, positioning and aggro management too.

 

Either way, in nearly all circumstances, Firewall control most enemies with panic and positioning, while fire mine or storm takes care of dagger rogues (shadows/terrors/stalkers) that pop out of stealth and move past the Firewall. Fire Storm takes care of archer / ranged fire that doesn't like to walk past FW (or just cast FW on top of archers).

 

I point this comparison of three skills out in particular because at level 9 Ele you can get those three OR barrier + starter skills, but not both. The former is vastly more useful than the latter.

 

My thoughts exactly. The security that Barrier provides the entire team,

 

 

Barrier is the correct answer to all types of enemies, before they attack and during their attack.

 

Untrue. Barrier very often misses, or cannot be provided to the entire team due to differences in position. Both by being trolled by height differences (cast barrier on stairs.. miss), and necessities of positioning seperately, or you'll be trolled by enemy KD/Stun effects. Hello DC, Brutes, Ice Mines, Terror / Panic, etc that prevent effective barrier. Spells with AoE CC like Firewall / Firestorm, etc, produce a lot more consistent results, and are less likely to miss or be interrupted.

 

Barrier is the incorrect response to all of the above (and more). While it is the correct response much of the time, it is incorrect to think it is the correct response all the time. The idea of Barrier crutch all the time is what gets people killed when Barrier is the incorrect response.

 

I do advocate combined CC/Barrier approach (FS/FW/Barrier/Chaotic Fire Mine is my favorite build for example) but Barrier is not always the go-to answer. While Barrier is OP, it should not be worshipped as the always answer. You need to adapt with the correct response to changing conditions. Sometimes manuvering is it. Sometimes CC. Sometimes Attack / Burst Dps. Sometimes it may be something else all together. Demon Commander staring contest anyone?

[russ4ua16]

I have to admit that I hate firestorm form the Ele, even aside from the old key bug.  It's one of these abilities in which it is bloody impossible to see opponents and such if you are a assassin or melee type player.  I equate it to flamers in memp.  And with the key bug solved and the power of that ability everyone and their druffalo will be an elementalist.

Complete agreement here. Assassin is my favorite class and she loathes Firestorm. Impossible to maintain flanking threat reduction. It would be nice to not only alter the visuals of firestorm but knockdown as well. However, those aren't at the top of my bug fix wish list.

As for the abilities performance: love it. It's an aoe dot field with cc on top. Combined with other dots, it rocks.

[veramis]

Let me remind everyone, I preface my statements that they apply with perilous in mind. You can do whatever you want on threatening and below if you're geared or skilled, though the same could be said for perilous on skilled alone (but geared alone is insufficient for perilous).

 

I do not declare never use barrier, rather it is the inappropriate response sometimes, and not always the appropriate choice to make that inexperienced players tend to think. I also declare CC is more valuable than Barrier when you are making a choice before the game (character build planning), and during (Cast CC, then barrier).

 

And just how much CC do you need? Let's say you get 2 CC abilities and 1 DPS ability or 3 CC abilities, do you really need your final ability to be ANOTHER CC?

 

Untrue. There's exactly one enemy that cannot be CC'ed directly. Demon Commander. He can only be CC'ed indirectly and through stagger tricks. All other enemies can be actively CC'ed. I challenge anyone to name an enemy that cannot be actively CC'ed, and I will reply with the appropriate response.

 

Many mobs will be immune to certain types of CC. Are you always going to have the correct CC available for the specific enemies scattered around the battlefield? That there is only one enemy immune to all forms of CC means nothing. Spare me your appropriate response, the fact is, you won't always have the right CC available for the specific kinds of enemies. Barrier is something which works against all enemies.

 

The Ele in particular has his choice of CC between KD/Stagger (SF/FM/FS/FC), Panic (FW), Freeze (WG/IM), Sleep (SF Weaken + Staff/Stormbringer/Lightning Bolt Shock  combo) and Paralyze (Static Charge--passive, not cage). Between FW and FS alone, it covers every non-commander boss available, and almost all elites (revenant is only other one not directly CC'ed by ele).

 

Again, you think you can somehow keep mobs constantly CC'ed? Mobs can pop back up in a fraction of a second after being knocked down, frozen enemies unfreeze long before freezing abilities come off cool down, etc. blah blah blah why am I even arguing such an obvious thing.

 

Secondly, Barrier will not mitigate 'everyone's damage. High burst enemy damage (shadows/horrors) will eat through anything but full barrier, and certain Elite animals (druffalo, gurn, etc), will charge, kd, and hit the player multiple times tearing through barrier. Barrier is not an effective defense when you are knocked down. That includes terrors on Zone 5 Demon Commander.

 

Spare me your hyperbole. Barrier gives you a moment of invulnerability, and will absorb a few to several thousands of damage. Mobs don't magically do 4000-6000 damage instantly to make barrier meaningless. Even against the highest burst DPS damage of a shadow it will buy you a few hundredths of a second to run away while in the middle of his broken attack.

 

Very true, but CC is still prioritized over barrier, as barrier decays and CC precludes the necessity of barrier. I am usually first to advocate barrier ele, because I love chaotic fire mines, but CC is vastly more important than barrier early on. By mid-teens, the Ele has both. At level 7-9? I would take WG, fire wall, mine, and storm over barrier + WG + immolate any day.

 

Barrier decays and CC only lasts some milliseconds (perilous mobs like to proc a magical auto-upright when hit) or several seconds at most, so your argument against Barrier is meaningless. About CC being "vastly more important than barrier", again, I have to ask you, JUST how much CC do you need? Why do you need a sleeping+knocked down+staggered+frozen+panicked+feared enemy?

 

What is better, preventing damage off of one or two players (assuming balanced party close range + long range characters, or needing to spread out), or sealing off the entire starting room via FW? If you're clustered together, maximizing barrier, you'll be knocked down by AoE effects.

 

Ideally, the team will wait for everyone to gather for Barrier, so that everyone has ~10 seconds of not taking damage and being able to focus on attacking. If the team won't do such, then obviously you try to get teammates who NEED the barrier, and avoid using it on teammates who survive just fine without it (Lego). You give this worst case scenario for Barrier, but you give a best case scenario for FW panic. Talking about clustered together and getting knocked down to AoE effects, Barrier is actually a decent size, and there are few AoE's that will hit everyone if they keep their distance from each other but within the Barrier area. I'll give you a best case scenario for Barrier. 4 Elementalists, standing around each other, stacking Barrier for multiplying Chaotic Focus damage bonus (yes, it happens), having virtually inexhaustible Barrier with higher strength than Keeper Barrier, with 2 very powerful CC abilities and 1 very powerful DPS ability.

 

Barrier is OP as heck, but not totally invincible, and most of the time just wasted to decay.

 

Barrier is OP as heck, that's why people should always use it. Ignoring comment about it being wasted to decay. I've played with many top players who still die all the time and who would've survived just fine with Barrier.

 

For some people, but that's a L2P issue. Mind you, I am not speaking of just hard control (stun/sleep/paralyze/freeze), but soft CC, positioning and aggro management too.

 

Or maybe you are just hallucinating best case scenarios for CC's, and ignoring that perilous enemies are hasted and can recover very fast from some forms of CC.

 

Either way, in nearly all circumstances, Firewall control most enemies with panic and positioning, while fire mine or storm takes care of dagger rogues (shadows/terrors/stalkers) that pop out of stealth and move past the Firewall. Fire Storm takes care of archer / ranged fire that doesn't like to walk past FW (or just cast FW on top of archers).

 

Hypothetical best case scenarios. Anyone not lying themselves will be able to recall situations such as enemies popping up from behind, walking around from a corner ahead of other groups of enemies, or a room of enemies scattered in different locations, with some running towards the team and some staying back to kill from a distance. You can't CC them all a lot of the times because you can't magically convince the AI to go into your CC and be affected by them, but you can mitigate most if not all of the damage with Barrier most of the time.

 

I point this comparison of three skills out in particular because at level 9 Ele you can get those three OR barrier + starter skills, but not both. The former is vastly more useful than the latter.

 

You have argued that you like elementalists without Barrier. That's what I have issue with. You keep making arguments that "CC is better than Barrier". but I have to ask YOU again,

 

WHY DO YOU NEED 3CC+1DPS OR 4CC INSTEAD OF GETTING BARRIER?

WHY DO YOU NEED 3CC+1DPS OR 4CC INSTEAD OF GETTING BARRIER?

WHY DO YOU NEED 3CC+1DPS OR 4CC INSTEAD OF GETTING BARRIER?

WHY DO YOU NEED 3CC+1DPS OR 4CC INSTEAD OF GETTING BARRIER?

WHY DO YOU NEED 3CC+1DPS OR 4CC INSTEAD OF GETTING BARRIER?

 

Untrue. Barrier very often misses, or cannot be provided to the entire team due to differences in position. Both by being trolled by height differences (cast barrier on stairs.. miss), and necessities of positioning seperately, or you'll be trolled by enemy KD/Stun effects. Hello DC, Brutes, Ice Mines, Terror / Panic, etc that prevent effective barrier. Spells with AoE CC like Firewall / Firestorm, etc, produce a lot more consistent results, and are less likely to miss or be interrupted.

 

Hypothetical worst case scenario argument against Barrier. Even drinking too much for dinner I still don't miss Barrier on myself and at least one teammate. You mention being trolled by enemy KD/Stun, but these things don't last that long, and there is no guarantee that you will have the correct CC available to cast or cast in the location/locations of enemies in order to prevent the enemy KD/Stun. You mention Hello DC, but just what is CC supposed to do against DC? Who cares if you are hit by a Brute when you have Barrier on, its like being hit by a pillow. Ice mine, terror, terror knockdown, etc., all like being hit with pillows when you have Barrier. When you are tickled by the pillows, sure, you might lose 100-1000 milliseconds, but you have lost 0 HP, and can keep on standing still, face tanking and killing.

 

Barrier is the incorrect response to all of the above (and more). While it is the correct response much of the time, it is incorrect to think it is the correct response all the time. The idea of Barrier crutch all the time is what gets people killed when Barrier is the incorrect response.

 

FACE PALM. Barrier is NEVER the incorrect response. Enemies do DAMAGE. Barrier mitigates DAMAGE. When DAMAGE is mitigated, YOU SURVIVE BETTER.

 

I do advocate combined CC/Barrier approach (FS/FW/Barrier/Chaotic Fire Mine is my favorite build for example) but Barrier is not always the go-to answer.

 

Sorry but Barrier simply is the go-to answer. Anyone who is an exception to this rule is running a powerful-enough firing squad team (all ranged DPS, not your rofl-balanced melee/ranged team) that don't need either Barrier or CC because everything dies within 2 seconds of entering the screen.

 

While Barrier is OP, it should not be worshipped as the always answer. You need to adapt with the correct response to changing conditions. Sometimes manuvering is it. Sometimes CC. Sometimes Attack / Burst Dps. Sometimes it may be something else all together. Demon Commander staring contest anyone?

 

Nope. I disagree. Everyone reading, please understand, Barrier is the answer. If you are the kind of person who peruses the forum for tips and strategies, then chances are you don't have the BiS gear and high attributes and cheesy builds required to do better WITHOUT Barrier than WITH Barrier. There are some speed run teams that run better without Barrier, but they most certainly don't rely on redundant CC, they rely upon DPS.

[CelticRanger275]

^^ I need a barrier on my brain to guard against giant-wall-of-text attack.

[russ4ua16]

25% HoK is a large part of why I found it viable. Other gear is nothing special. Dynamo staff modded for straight attack and SCD amulet that I'll probably swap for cunning. 24 fire resist on arms with 20 on belt

[Drasca]

 SCD amulet that I'll probably swap for cunning

 

I did that too until I realized Flashpoint has a 10s cooldown. Went back to 15% CD Ammy for the flat bonus across all skills, instead of the double-cast of one that'd I'd get regardless.

[Jkregers]

The problem you're creating for yourself is that you've set your argument up so that it cannot be defended. CC > Barrier.

 

Without numbers/evidence, you can't prove that CC is better than barrier with words alone. You seem to be presenting yourself as an authority on the matter. I'm not a logic junkie, but isn't that close to appealing to an irrelevant authority? It seems like Mortiel knows his logic, maybe he can help me. 

 

At best, you're encouraging different play styles, at worst, you are spreading misinformation to the community. Really, all that needs to be changed is your stance on the matter. Not "I know CC is better and this is why", but "I believe CC is better and this is why".

 

It may seem like nitpicking, but your argument is potentially damaging to the community. This may seem a little dramatic on my part, but I'm a part of another community where misinformation is a freaking epidemic....I'm scarred, yo. 

[russ4ua16]

I did that too until I realized Flashpoint has a 10s cooldown. Went back to 15% CD Ammy for the flat bonus across all skills, instead of the double-cast of one that'd I'd get regardless.

That cool down doesn't change in your skill tree when you equip the SCD. I thought about timing it to see if it is actually working on an internal CD. You tested?