107 réponses à ce sujet

[CelticRanger275]

Has anyone done the math (probably pretty simple but I'm at work and can't pull up the skill trees) on how much damage is added with chaotic focus?  I've always spammed barrier primarily for the boost in spell damage. The extra protection is but a caveat.  It makes team mates happy, and doesn't make you look like a dick who's trying to top the kill chart more than have a nice clean run.

[veramis]

The problem you're creating for yourself is that you've set your argument up so that it cannot be defended. CC > Barrier.

 

Without numbers/evidence, you can't prove that CC is better than barrier with words alone. You seem to be presenting yourself as an authority on the matter. I'm not a logic junkie, but isn't that close to appealing to an irrelevant authority? It seems like Mortiel knows his logic, maybe he can help me. 

 

At best, you're encouraging different play styles, at worst, you are spreading misinformation to the community. Really, all that needs to be changed is your stance on the matter. Not "I know CC is better and this is why", but "I believe CC is better and this is why".

 

It may seem like nitpicking, but your argument is potentially damaging to the community. This may seem a little dramatic on my part, but I'm a part of another community where misinformation is a freaking epidemic....I'm scarred, yo. 

 

I have absolutely nothing against people choosing to avoid Barrier so they can try different builds. I really enjoy it when people do different builds, but I don't like it when people argue that an ability that is clearly OP as Barrier isn't "as good as CC".

[russ4ua16]

Has anyone done the math (probably pretty simple but I'm at work and can't pull up the skill trees) on how much damage is added with chaotic focus?  I've always spammed barrier primarily for the boost in spell damage. The extra protection is but a caveat.  It makes team mates happy, and doesn't make you look like a dick who's trying to top the kill chart more than have a nice clean run.

I believe it's 100% increase on immolate and 200% on fire mine. When I used chaotic focus, I ran FM, Barrier, Stonefist and wall of fire. That way only one ability, cast before battle, consumed my barrier and it was a flashpoint barrier.

[Drasca]

"I know CC is better and this is why", but "I believe CC is better and this is why".

 

I provided a statement and a reasoning that can be proven or disproven. You can choose to believe what you like. Belief is irrelevant. The reasoning justifies that statement and can be proven or disproven with testing. Actual testable reasoning instead of simple opinion statement is seperates scientific method from mere opinion, heresay and belief.

 

For Ele at level 9 going fire trio vs barrier, I'm willing to bet for the same hour you'll have higher overall gains (completions, gold, experience), than bee-lining to barrier at the same level, when approaching Perilous runs.

 

The same is true for casting AoE CC before Barrier, as there is more control over mobs, and less wasted barrier since there's a time delay between casting barrier, engagement and time taking damage.

Relatively simple, just time consuming, to prove. Take a level 9 elementalist. Use the build I list in my signature. Play it for an hour. Promote and report your exp/gold results. Do it over and over to get the most consistent results. Do the same for a barrier rushed Elementalist.

 

At the very least compare results of your next promotion.

 

That said, I've done this a lot, and yes I will directly and authoritative state "this x works better than y, and here's why", instead of meekly going around the subject. I did not state "this x works better" without reasoning, that would be authority only.

 

If you don't like being told bluntly X works better than Y, and can't handle that idea because it hurts someone's fragile ego, too bad for you, because it isn't about that. It is about the fact that X is better than Y, nothing more and nothing less. You can argue Y is better than X if you'd like, but it has nothing to do with whose opinion it is and who likes what better.

 

 

potentially damaging

 

If you worry about potential damage all the time, you'll never accomplish anything--unless you're trying to calculate how to min-max that fire mine onto the Demon Commander.

[Drasca]

I believe it's 100% increase on immolate and 200% on fire mine. When I used chaotic focus, I ran FM, Barrier, Stonefist and wall of fire. That way only one ability, cast before battle, consumed my barrier and it was a flashpoint barrier.

 

DM_KOTU did the numbers on this, and it is very interesting. The TL:DR version is works best on Fire Mine. 7-9k non-crits on fire vulnerable enemies, half that for normals.

[veramis]

For Ele at level 9 going fire trio vs barrier, I'm willing to bet for the same hour you'll have higher overall gains (completions, gold, experience), than bee-lining to barrier at the same level, when approaching Perilous runs.

 

Most Elementalists beeline for firestorm and death siphon. The issue here is WHY do you keep saying 3CC+1DPS or 4CC is better than having one ability slot taken up by Barrier.

 

 

The same is true for casting AoE CC before Barrier, as there is more control over mobs, and less wasted barrier since there's a time delay between casting barrier, engagement and time taking damage.

Relatively simple, just time consuming, to prove. Take a level 9 elementalist. Use the build I list in my signature. Play it for an hour. Promote and report your exp/gold results. Do it over and over to get the most consistent results. Do the same for a barrier rushed Elementalist.

 

Barrier should often be cast even before aggro'ing mobs, because teammates tend to gather up before a fight and then scatter around the battlefield for whatever reason during the fight. Barrier casting animation is what... 0.5-0.7 seconds? Most elementalists and keepers should be able to keep up Barrier 90% of the time during combat, so i t doesn't matter if you "waste" any Barrier. In fact, I very often cast barrier ~5 seconds BEFORE any mobs are aggroed, either because I know the team will be split apart if I wait any longer, or because I know that my Barrier will be ready for another case before Barrier ends or soon after Barrier ends.

 

Again, please answer the question, HOW IS 3CC+1DPS or 4CC BETTER THAN HAVING BARRIER?

 

Unless this question is answered satisfactorily I will consider all of your defamation of the skill Barrier to be entirely without merit and worthy of being reported as spam.

[russ4ua16]

snip

No interest in joining your discussion but you might want to try what he is suggesting. Would've doubted it myself if I had not tried it. With the four CC build, ranged damage becomes the only reason to have barrier for yourself and the rest of your competent group members.
Use line of sight to negate ranged damage and you really don't need barrier. Even on perilous.

[veramis]

No interest in joining your discussion but you might want to try what he is suggesting. Would've doubted it myself if I had not tried it. With the four CC build, ranged damage becomes the only reason to have barrier for yourself and the rest of your competent group members.
Use line of sight to negate ranged damage and you really don't need barrier. Even on perilous.

 

As I said before, different encounters will have different enemy composition, positioning, spawning, and movements. No matter how perfectly you do your CC's, there will always be the occasional outlier, or enemy who pops back up very fast after getting knocked down, or who aren't dead before the CC wears off and you don't have the ability free to cast CC again.

 

In comparison, Barrier is always there to protect you and your teammates, and you will be able to keep it up 90% of the time unless you poorly manage your mana, are taking too much damage (barrier doing its job), or you are using up your Barrier with Chaotic Focus.

 

Your argument to use "line of sight to negate ranged damage" is a joke. How about I eat the arrows and keep on killing things, not waste any time moving around. How about the team stack up on DPS abilities, drop some CC abilities, and rely more upon Barrier to keep them safe?

 

You don't NEED Barrier for perilous, but I would say 90% of players would benefit more from having at least one player with Barrier, as opposed to being in a team where no one has Barrier. I can think of maybe two team compositions that would benefit more from having no Barrier-casting class, and one of those two team compositions relies upon one or more of a self-Barriering class.

[russ4ua16]

Your argument to use "line of sight to negate ranged damage" is a joke.

Ya know, all I did was suggest you try it before condemning it. You want to get personal? Okie. If you think that argument is a joke you need to learn to play. Thanks for displaying your lack of skill publicly.

Using line of sight doesn't require you to move.

[lpconfig]

Stay classy BSN.

[Jkregers]

I'm hearing a lot of specific stipulations which must be met to make CC work....as opposed to group up, cast barrier, and pour on full offense while not worrying about damage. 

[Beerfish]

As I said before, different encounters will have different enemy composition, positioning, spawning, and movements. No matter how perfectly you do your CC's, there will always be the occasional outlier, or enemy who pops back up very fast after getting knocked down, or who aren't dead before the CC wears off and you don't have the ability free to cast CC again.

 

In comparison, Barrier is always there to protect you and your teammates, and you will be able to keep it up 90% of the time unless you poorly manage your mana, are taking too much damage (barrier doing its job), or you are using up your Barrier with Chaotic Focus.

 

Your argument to use "line of sight to negate ranged damage" is a joke. How about I eat the arrows and keep on killing things, not waste any time moving around. How about the team stack up on DPS abilities, drop some CC abilities, and rely more upon Barrier to keep them safe?

 

You don't NEED Barrier for perilous, but I would say 90% of players would benefit more from having at least one player with Barrier, as opposed to being in a team where no one has Barrier. I can think of maybe two team compositions that would benefit more from having no Barrier-casting class, and one of those two team compositions relies upon one or more of a self-Barriering class.

I would totally agree with this line of thinking.  Unless you have a well oiled team of friends or you get very very lucky with a pug group teammates rarely operate really efficiently and keeping them alive is the best way to get through a match.

 

There is a critical moment when a match can go all to hell and often that is when one player gets downed.  If you can save that one health bar melee guy from going down or use barrier to facilitate a rescue you are much farther ahead.  As for enemy archers if i have made a mistake and they aggro me I am in big trouble and possibly down before i know they are after me.  With a pre barrier you get a life line to bail out of move out of line of sight if they hit you.

 

Many ways of winning in this game but at least one barrier user covers up for a lot of mistakes by the team.

[Drasca]

 

I know the team will be split apart if I wait any longer

 

I'm fine with this. Why should I worry when the enemy is CC'ed and cannot damage myself or teammates? Please do tell me how the enemy does damage while incapacitated or knocked down. If there's some new bleed on hit or damage reflection mechanic, I want to know about it.

 

Again, please answer the question, HOW IS 3CC+1DPS or 4CC BETTER THAN HAVING BARRIER

 

Misunderstanding on your part, or possibly miscommunication on mine on not being as clear as you need to be, but nowhere did I state not having barrier is superior to having barrier available in an end game build. I have stated numerous times the Chaotic Fire Mine build is my favorite. Guess what's required to go Chaotic Focus? Barrier.

 

However, at level 7-9 you must choose between 4x CC, Dot+Burst Damage, Death Siphon (WG/FM/FW/FS) vs Barrier, Immolate, WG and maybe one other (but probably not if you go full barrier support ED SoS), PA, WS, GS. That choice for me is clear, the former is superior.

 

Believe what you'd like. That won't change verifiable fact.

[Headbasher]

DO you and your teammates never make mistakes? Don't get barrier.

 

Do you or your teammates ever make mistakes? get barrier

[veramis]

Ya know, all I did was suggest you try it before condemning it. You want to get personal? Okie. If you think that argument is a joke you need to learn to play. Thanks for displaying your lack of skill publicly.

Using line of sight doesn't require you to move.

 

I have done barrier-less keeper and barrier-less elementalist. I don't need to learn how to play, Hahaha... telling me to L2P... I am way past learning how to play. I stopped caring about min-maxing or playing well a long time ago. For weeks I have only played funny or cheesy builds that let me be lazy and still get the job done.

 

By using "line of sight to negate ranged damage", you are automatically going to be moving more than if you were to stand out in the open or in a location where you are visible to most or all of the enemies and most or all of the enemies are visible to you.

[Jkregers]

In a game without healing, damage mitigation is probably the bottom line. "But with CC you can combo and kill faster!". It doesn't matter how fast you kill, all that matters is how much damage you take in that encounter. 

 

Does one barrier caster mitigate more damage than one CC'er? My answer is "yeah, probably". 

 

However, this is just for survival purposes. If you aren't taking heavy damage using just CC, you are probably becoming more efficient than having a barrier user take up a spot of a potential dps character. I suppose it will vary according to your group, but I would say that barrier is probably more efficient for pug groups.

[Drasca]

Many ways of winning in this game but at least one barrier user covers up for a lot of mistakes by the team.

 

The same can be said of CC, except active CC works more consistently than barrier does. CC is always effective while the spell is up. Barrier's effectiveness decays over time, and has issues previously mentioned.

 

Ring of Fire Wall makes FW godly with persistent FW all the time. Not kidding, permanent panic due to nearly 30 seconds worth of FW and a much lower cooldown time than that.

 

Ring of Static Cage is nearly 100% uptime when passives are utilized.

 

AW's are OP with PotA on-host. Off host sucks for everyone. No more needs to be said there.

 

CC simply gets results results more consistently when prioritized. Do I avoid using barrier all together? No, but it should not be worshipped. Barrier should be recognized for what it is, temporary damage mitigation of decaying value vulnerable to status effects, posititional casting issues, and burst damage. Valuable, but the second to last line of defense, not the first.

 

I can't make everyone's pug experiences better directly, but I can help you make your own PuG experiences better by encouraging communication and filtering good teammates from bad pugs. You have that option, and I encourage you to use it.

[Drasca]

In a game without healing, damage mitigation is probably the bottom line. "But with CC you can combo and kill faster!". It doesn't matter how fast you kill, all that matters is how much damage you take in that encounter. 

 

 If you aren't taking heavy damage using just CC, you are probably becoming more efficient than having a barrier user take up a spot of a potential dps character. I suppose it will vary according to your group, but I would say that barrier is probably more efficient for pug groups.

 

There is healing, just not direct. Damage mitigation is the second to last defense. Health being the last. Damage prevention, not taking damage at all, is the first.

 

With CC, you're correct that you combo and kill faster, and you forget this when asking yourself "barrier user take up spot of dps character". You also forget CC is damage prevention.

 

So no, you would not take damage when enemies are CC'ed, thus you wouldn't take 'heavy damage'. Please enlighten me to what situations you take damage while the enemy is CC'ed.

[Drasca]

.as opposed to group up, cast barrier, and pour on full offense while not worrying about damage. 

 

You mean die afterward when barrier decays to half before the party even reaches the enemy as I quote:

 

 

the team will be split apart if I wait any longer

 

There are effective ways to barrier. However there are some facts that cannot be died. Barrier decays, and is positionally dependent, lessening the effectiveness.

[veramis]

 

Misunderstanding on your part, or possibly miscommunication on mine on not being as clear as you need to be, but nowhere did I state not having barrier is superior to having barrier available in an end game build.

 

Is that why you said:

 

Misunderstanding on my part. I see. Is that why you said the following:

 

1. It is better to control where your enemies are going, and not take damage at all than to try to mitigate damage with barrier. 

2. Barrier's nice, but secondary to CC, and not necessary to players who have a higher layer of defense: Control of the enemy.

3. I do not declare never use barrier, rather it is the inappropriate response sometimes, and not always the appropriate choice to make that inexperienced players tend to think.

4. Barrier will not mitigate 'everyone's damage. 

5. Barrier is not an effective defense when you are knocked down.

6. CC is still prioritized over barrier, as barrier decays and CC precludes the necessity of barrier.

7. What is better, preventing damage off of one or two players (assuming balanced party close range + long range characters, or needing to spread out), or sealing off the entire starting room via FW?

8. If you're clustered together, maximizing barrier, you'll be knocked down by AoE effects.

9. Barrier is OP as heck, but not totally invincible, and most of the time just wasted to decay.

10. Barrier very often misses (followed by a lot of nonsense arguments)

 

 

 

I have stated numerous times the Chaotic Fire Mine build is my favorite. Guess what's required to go Chaotic Focus? Barrier.

 

To counter your attempt to change your position, I call Drasca09, pre-eminent authority on the inferiority of Barrier, to the stand.

 

Drasca09 as of 12:09 PM EST 2/5/2015:  "It is better to control where your enemies are going, and not take damage at all than to try to mitigate damage with barrier."

 

However, at level 7-9 you must choose between 4x CC, Dot+Burst Damage, Death Siphon (WG/FM/FW/FS) vs Barrier, Immolate, WG and maybe one other (but probably not if you go full barrier support ED SoS), PA, WS, GS. That choice for me is clear, the former is superior.

 

Please refer to prior Drasca09 posts as to why CC is better than Barrier, and how you don't need Barrier if you have lots of CC.

 

Believe what you'd like. That won't change verifiable fact.

 

 

Everyone claims to be the champion of truth. But I'm on the side of Barrier and I demand that you retract any claims that CC is superior to Barrier or that CC can somehow make Barrier obsolete. There are only two things that can make Barrier obsolete: sufficiently-high DPS and Cheatengine.

[haxaw]

I can't make everyone's pug experiences better directly, but I can help you make your own PuG experiences better by encouraging communication and filtering good teammates from bad average pugs. You have that option, and I encourage you to use it.

 

Fixed that. The average PuG will benefit more from Barrier than from some CC (obviously this is only early levels, when we're forced to choose one or the other). This has been overwhelmingly my experience, and I know you have a different way of approaching PuGs, which is fine.

 

The quote outlines your philosophy to PuGing, which may differ from other people's. Ultimately, that's really all this debate boils down to.

[russ4ua16]

It shouldn't be a debate. We were talking alternatives and somehow that got heard as "Barrier sucks!" Some folks on here are just stubborn or lack knowledge of game mechanics.

[Drasca]

 can make Barrier obsolete: sufficiently-high DPS

 

CC contributes to this, do you deny that? Do you also deny CC prevents damage?

 

I do maintain the stance CC is better than Barrier. I don't avoid barrier completely, but I argue it is better invested in later and cast later.

 

As you've stated before, it can be cast very quickly. I would argue for the advanced player, cast barrier even faster than the enemy mob can complete their attack animation. I don't need Barrier until I'm about to be damaged. Any earlier is inefficient without other issues involved.

[veramis]

The same can be said of CC, except active CC works more consistently than barrier does. CC is always effective while the spell is up. Barrier's effectiveness decays over time, and has issues previously mentioned.

 

What is the up-time on CC's? What is the up-time on Barrier? Don't answer, I don't want a headache.

 

Ring of Fire Wall makes FW godly with persistent FW all the time. Not kidding, permanent panic due to nearly 30 seconds worth of FW and a much lower cooldown time than that.

 

Barrier is pretty godly with the upgrade for faster cool-down (and for keeper a lot of passives) with persistent Barrier all the time. Not kidding, nearly permanent barrier will protect you from taking any damage when that elementalist without barrier casts a firewall that can only affect a quarter or at most half of the enemies in the room, and all of the other mobs are trying to put holes in you or stab you to death.

 

Ring of Static Cage is nearly 100% uptime when passives are utilized.

 

Barrier is nearly 100% up-time when the Barrier upgrade is utilized, very useful for when there are still ranged enemies in the Static Cage that can put holes in you.

 

AW's are OP with PotA on-host. Off host sucks for everyone. No more needs to be said there

 

Irrelevant. Any AW without Fade Shield is not much of a warrior, just some arcane guy.

 

CC simply gets results results more consistently when prioritized. Do I avoid using barrier all together? No, but it should not be worshipped. Barrier should be recognized for what it is, temporary damage mitigation of decaying value vulnerable to status effects, posititional casting issues, and burst damage. Valuable, but the second to last line of defense, not the first.

 

Barrier simply gets results more consistently when prioritized. Do I avoid using CC all together? No, but it should not be worshipped. CC should be recognized for what it is, temporary damage mitigation which cannot possibly affect all enemies in all encounters of limited duration and usually significantly higher cool-down times than said duration, positional casting issues, and enemies randomly proccing auto-upright ability. Valuable, but the second to last line of defense, whereas Barrier is both the first and last line of defense.

 

I can't make everyone's pug experiences better directly, but I can help you make your own PuG experiences better by encouraging communication and filtering good teammates from bad pugs. You have that option, and I encourage you to use it.

 

I can make everyone's pug experiences better directly, through the use of Barrier. I don't need to rely upon communication or filtering good teammates from bad pugs because when I keep everyone alive with Barrier they can do whatever the heck they want. You have the option to use Barrier like a rational person, and I encourage you to use it.

[Jkregers]

There is healing, just not direct. Damage mitigation is the second to last defense. Health being the last. Damage prevention, not taking damage at all, is the first.

 

With CC, you're correct that you combo and kill faster, and you forget this when asking yourself "barrier user take up spot of dps character". You also forget CC is damage prevention.

 

So no, you would not take damage when enemies are CC'ed, thus you wouldn't take 'heavy damage'. Please enlighten me to what situations you take damage while the enemy is CC'ed.

 

Barrier is damage prevention.

 

You confused me with this thought - "With CC, you're correct that you combo and kill faster, and you forget this when asking yourself "barrier user take up spot of dps character". You also forget CC is damage prevention." - My point was that a toon without barrier would probably provide more damage than a toon with barrier (unless that barrier was used with chaotic focus?). Also, I realize that CC is a form of damage prevention, that is why we are comparing the two to begin with. 

 

I don't need to enlighten you about any situations where you would receive heavy damage with CC, because that has nothing to do with my point. My point was more along the line of "Maybe skilled teams do become more efficient with only CC". To answer your question, If you miss on your cc or make a mistake, or forget to account for a certain group, I'm sure you can take damage. 

 

Anyway, this conversation has made me more interested in CC, for what it's worth. 

 

Edit - So many edits, I need food!