107 réponses à ce sujet

[russ4ua16]

By using "line of sight to negate ranged damage", you are automatically going to be moving more than if you were to stand out in the open or in a location where you are visible to most or all of the enemies and most or all of the enemies are visible to you.

If I had some crayons I'd draw you a picture. Take zone five for example: stand just inside the room but not IN the doorway. All ranged mobs will be forced to round that corner, enter the FM/FS/WoF gauntlet, and become susceptible to melee damage without the group ever having to move. The only exception I've found is teleporting demon mobs. If you're all bunched up vs DC, you're wiping anyway.
Suggesting that people stand out in the open? You're one of those Routine Roughhousers aren't ya?

[veramis]

CC contributes to this, do you deny that? Do you also deny CC prevents damage?

 

Where did I ever suggest CC doesn't contribute to making Barrier obsolete IF there is sufficiently-high DPS? The problem is, MOST PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE SUFFICIENTLY HIGH DPS TO MAKE BARRIER OBSOLETE. And believe me, a team that is strong enough to obsolete Barrier, in the sense that they complete runs faster WITHOUT Barrier than WITH Barrier, are not going to be relying primarily upon CC, they are going to rely extremely heavily upon DPS.

 

 

 

I do maintain the stance CC is better than Barrier. I don't avoid barrier completely, but I argue it is better invested in later and cast later.

 

Again, most elementalists get Barrier AFTER they have bee-lined for firestorm and death siphon. You aren't discovering new ground here, except your suggestions that CC is better than Barrier, but that's more like pointlessly digging a hole than discovering anything.

 

 

 

As you've stated before, it can be cast very quickly. I would argue for the advanced player, cast barrier even faster than the enemy mob can complete their attack animation. I don't need Barrier until I'm about to be damaged. Any earlier is inefficient without other issues involved.

 

Barrier cast earlier before a fight results in having higher mana when you do fight. I have cast it early so many times, and I would say those periods of time where I used to play more seriously, I would even cast it at such a time that I would have just enough mana or full mana at the moment of casting the next ability (usually static cage for keeper or firestorm for elementalist). Again, Barrier has a 90%+ up-time under most circumstances, it is not like most CC's that are active only for a fraction of the amount of time it takes for those CC's to get off cool-down.

[russ4ua16]

What is the up-time on CC's? What is the up-time on Barrier? Don't answer, I don't want a headache.

100% uptime on CCs. You were giving me a headache so ya.

[Drasca]

What is the up-time on CC's? What is the up-time on Barrier? Don't answer, I don't want a headache.

 

Barrier up-time has already been discussed by me here: TL:DR, it varies per build. I've already mentioned what the up-time for CC is.

 

 

ranged enemies in the Static Cage

 

Veilstrike --> KD + Sleep. See build in signature.

Despair Demons vulnerable to paralyze as well, just approach them and they're scripted to attempt to move and subsequently be paralyzed.

 

Ele Response: Fire Wall Panic --> Chaotic Fire Mine, dead Despair demon.

 

 

just some arcane guy.

 

I like my arcane guys! Either way, both statements are opinion and irrelevant.

 

enemies randomly proccing auto-upright ability

 

Can you explain this?

 

 

CC... is ... temporary damage mitigation

 

CC is not mitigation. It is prevention all together, because you do not take damage. Barrier is mitigation, because it assumes you are taking damage to begin with.

 

 

cannot possibly affect all enemies in all encounters

 

As stated before, there is exactly only one enemy that cannot be directly disabled by CC. One, the DC. I challenge anyone to name another enemy that cannot be disabled, and I'll reply how.. Before anyone says Revenent: Disruption Field / Stasis Lock.

 

 

limited duration and usually significantly higher cool-down times than said duration, positional casting issues

 

Uptime and effectiveness better than barrier, whose effectiveness decays over time. Positional casting also simpler to deal with than Barrier due to not requiring three others to wait for you.

 

 

second to last line of defense, whereas Barrier is both the first and last line of defense

 

CC works before Barrier does, however Health is the last line of defense (not barrier). For warriors, Guard before Health.

[veramis]

If I had some crayons I'd draw you a picture. Take zone five for example: stand just inside the room but not IN the doorway. All ranged mobs will be forced to round that corner, enter the FM/FS/WoF gauntlet, and become susceptible to melee damage without the group ever having to move. The only exception I've found is teleporting demon mobs. If you're all bunched up vs DC, you're wiping anyway.
Suggesting that people stand out in the open? You're one of those Routine Roughhousers aren't ya?

 

Wave 5 is the only time where line of sight funneling makes sense, because it is the only time where wave after wave of enemies walk into the room you are in. Even in Wave 5, it is much better to have your 4th ability be Barrier instead of another CC/DPS, because Barrier is just better than any CC (aside from PotA, but that ability is cast by a class without the ability to cast Barrier, non-fade shield brand).

 

In waves 1-4, it is you who must go to the enemy, in which case it makes a lot of sense to Barrier yourself up, stand in a position where you can see the enemies and they can see you, and destroy them without moving much if at all.

[russ4ua16]

snip

I don't understand why you are all wound up over this. At this point, I'm just antagonizing you. Barrier is awesome. Been using it for months. This was something different to try and I've been amazed by how effective it is. /end tweaking

[Drasca]

Barrier is damage prevention.

 

No, you quite clearly take damage and the effects that come with the damage. Not getting hit is damage prevention. Invincibility is damage prevention. You'll see damage numbers pop up, and barrier go down as you take damage with barrier.

 

 

My point was that a toon without barrier would probably provide more damage than a toon with barrier

 

This statement is definitively not true. Let us look at the least direct dps / direct kills character, the Keeper. Assuming the other mages can pull their weight in dps and kills (you've already mentioned chaotic fire mines), we'll look at how the Keeper contributes to kills outside of survival.

 

The keeper is a force multiplier with its static cage and cc abilities. Bring all the enemies in one place, and suddenly all AoE Dps is multiplied by every enemy within the CC.

 

Keeper can prime enemies AND auto-attacks do an additional 50% damage. I doubt I need to explain how combos work, but every warrior and rogue detonator will trigger Discharge's AoE Lightning damage within the static cage, multiplied by every enemy paralyzed. 

 

So no, having a barrier class definitely does not drop team dps. If anything, it increases it by multiple factors.

[DBR87]

Why would an Elementist not take barrier when it can not only increase your damage but also protect and your entire team for it's duration from all forms of damage??

 

For one more damage skill? You pass the ability to do bonus damage on your most powerful spells AND damage immunity for you and your entire team? Heck, you can even spec it so that you return 20% of the damage you would have taken if barrier wasn't up?

 

I personally skip Veiled Riposte but still the option is there to further increase DPS in an auxiliary form.

 

My core stats are a measly 17/16/16 so I am far from the upper echelons of MP. Maybe it is different up there. Still, I think a skill that protects you and your entire team from damage that can boost your own spell damage and return 20% of the damage you receive when spec'd for it is just a little too good to pass up on.

[Drasca]

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE SUFFICIENTLY HIGH DPS TO MAKE BARRIER OBSOLETE

most elementalists get Barrier AFTER

 

Speak for yourself. You don't have data on anyone else.

 

are not going to be relying primarily upon CC, they are going to rely extremely heavily upon DPS.

 

See force multiplication above. You need to L2P

 

 

Barrier cast earlier before a fight results in having higher mana when you do fight

 

When you use mana surge's buff, it negates the next spell cast's cost. You can also take advantage of restorative veil if you veilstrike, and any damage you do becomes mana as well as performing area KD (damage prevention) and weakness (damage prevention), and potentially sleep when cast after static cage (damage prevention and priming).

 

SC cost 65 vs Barrier cost 50. Not hard to figure out what MS saves more. Mana surge's buff will proc any time your barrier expires, so you can prep it ahead of time.

[Drasca]

Why would an Elementist not take barrier when it can not only increase your damage but also protect and your entire team for it's duration from all forms of damage??

 

Three damage and CC skills, at level 9. You obtain Barrier in mid teens, not at level 9. Start reading before you post.

[veramis]

Sorry... I give up. If people want to believe Barrier is inferior to CC, that's their right.

 

I'm reporting a new bug to Bioware. Apparently they nevre fixed the immortal Templar Shadow bug. They simply moved him into the forums and changed his name to Drasca.

[Drasca]

I would love the templar shadow's stealth knife attack. What player wouldn't want that crazy skill that does absurd amounts of damage? Also, to become immortal after casting firestorm? Want.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Is there a version of Godwin's law that says that if people continue arguing long enough, they'll eventually contradict themselves and stop making sense?

[russ4ua16]

I personally skip Veiled Riposte but still the option is there to further increase DPS in an auxiliary form.

That passive doesn't work. For your "why" question: Games like this are fun to me because I can tinker with load outs to, maybe, do something no one else has tried. That and after so many promotions you want to try something different. Everyone should keep in mind that this means I tried something for a day or two. Doesn't always mean I think it's good, better, or best. That next promotion is never far away.

About the build and party composition - take this FW/FM/SF/WoF ele with your group and you will clearly notice the difference between mitigation and prevention. Had a keeper tell me last night he was swapping toons next match cuz we were not taking damage. Next three successful perilous runs were done w/o barrier. It was a pug but a good one. Three people willing to try a strangers directions? /mindblow

[DBR87]

Three damage and CC skills, at level 9. You obtain Barrier in mid teens, not at level 9. Start reading before you post.

 

I never said anything about being able to obtain Barrier at level 9. I don't see what this has anything to do with not wanting to take a skill that buffs damage and protects allies. Are you implying some might want 4 skills/a complete build before level 12-15?

 

Also, my post was in direct response of the OP's original post and nothing more which would imply I know how to read and have done so before posting anything. I don't need, nor want, to read the entirety of this thread, especially since skimming past the last few entries seems to be an exchange between you and another user. I rather not be coerced into a cat fat because your opponent forfeited and you're bored.

[haxaw]

/mindblow

 

Please, please, please tell me this is the mage version of Mighty Blow. It needs to be a giant ethereal-looking explosion emanating from my mind to the target.

 

Also, their minds are blown. Up.

[DBR87]

 

That passive doesn't work. For your "why" question: Games like this are fun to me because I can tinker with load outs to, maybe, do something no one else has tried. That and after so many promotions you want to try something different. Everyone should keep in mind that this means I tried something for a day or two. Doesn't always mean I think it's good, better, or best. That next promotion is never far away.

About the build and party composition - take this FW/FM/SF/WoF ele with your group and you will clearly notice the difference between mitigation and prevention. Had a keeper tell me last night he was swapping toons next match cuz we were not taking damage. Next three successful perilous runs were done w/o barrier. It was a pug but a good one. Three people willing to try a strangers directions? /mindblow

 

Well, I can't argue with that. Nothing wrong with experimenting. Like I said, I am about 17/16/16 so I don't really feel like I am at that point where I'd go Winter's Graps, Lightning Bolt, Flash Fire, Stone Fist for the LuLz and did everything else. Really don't run Ele too much because so many other people I run into PUG'n run Ele or AW. Heck, I still don't have a HoK ring. :L

 

Either way, I personally wouldn't drop Barrier. I love the skill. Wish Necro had it. I admit when I run into random Ele's with out Barrier I feel a little annoyed but it's their choice, so... 

[Stinja]

Stay classy BSN.

 

n00b learn2play

 

wait... who was i meant to be quoting?

 

Meh whatever.  

I've given my thoughts, listen to other people's opinions (even if they're wrong), but ultimately play what you think is best.  

 

Ele suxxor:   Katari FTW!  

[Kenny Bania]

NEEEEERRRRDDDDDDSSSSS!!!!!!!

[CitizenThom]

I play ele as a crowd controller... immolate for example, is to control archers (by way of killing them), winter's grasp is for rogues, ice mine/ice armor is for mid-boss warrior types if they get to you. I think ele works both ways, but there aren't a ton of support classes, so I figure barrier is a rare and handy thing to have available when a Keeper isn't around.

[russ4ua16]

NEEEEERRRRDDDDDDSSSSS!!!!!!!

Guilty

[ALTBOULI]

NEEEEERRRRDDDDDDSSSSS!!!!!!!

Correction Wolf-nerds. Needless theory-crafting, this should be settled with a dual!

[Stinja]

Needless theory-crafting, this should be settled with a dual!

 

Duel?

 

Like handbags at dawn?

[ALTBOULI]

Duel?
 
Like handbags at dawn?

You dare correct me!?! I challenge you -Routine, Chateau, Red Templars (now that the DC has been nerfed)