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[thesuperdarkone2]

The guy thinks turning the Templar Order into monsters is a favor for them, I would never let that happen in any of my games.
He was a loser in DA2 and became a worse kind of loser in DAI. I would gladly kill this lunatic ending his dementia, unfortunately, I think Corypheus did it for me.

The fact that the leadership was willing to help a DEMON and help a darkspawn MAGISTER made me facepalm. Are they seriously that dumb? The Templar Order deserves to get wiped out. Fitting how those who refused to give up fighting mages wound up being destroyed by their own bigotry. Leliana finally disbanding them and giving mages freedom is best. Samson was just a sign of how wrong the system had become.

[PorcelynDoll]

I saw a collage of him come across my Tumblr Dash with the tag #my trash husband

I will never be able to unsee that. It's canon for me now.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Anybody see the prison banters he has with Alexius and Ruth?

http://youtu.be/vgAlt9BMwdg?t=25m9s

[Boost32]

Yeah you could easily come to this intepretation with him. Samson was the only one who's mind wasn't affect by the Red Lyrium which meant he was aware of the atrocities he commited to fuel Corypheus' army. So is Samson a sympathetic figure trying to give Red Templars a purpose. Or is he pathetic Lyrium addict who is attacking the Chantry out of revenge and blames his problems on everything else but him?

What purpose the Red Templars have? They are insane hollow husk living on a barrowed time, they have no objectives besides serving a monster , who represents everything the Order sworn to fight.
Samson is crazy because he really thinks a life as a Red Templar is something good for them, he cant see he is transforming them in a weapon to be used against the people who they devoted to protect. The Templars are viewed as heroes and he want to destroy everything the Order stands.
I really hate him, the only bad thing about siding with the templars is not having the pleasure to destroy him myself.

The fact that the leadership was willing to help a DEMON and help a darkspawn MAGISTER made me facepalm. Are they seriously that dumb? The Templar Order deserves to get wiped out. Fitting how those who refused to give up fighting mages wound up being destroyed by their own bigotry. Leliana finally disbanding them and giving mages freedom is best. Samson was just a sign of how wrong the system had become.

You know I dont agree with you and you know those things didnt happen in my game, I really dont understand why you want to bring a mage vs templar debate into this thread. I already told you that Im not going into a off topic debate with you, if you want you can send me a Pm.

[Sifr]

They are sides of the same coin...sort of. It's pity this didn't got explored more, but I think that if Samson was ever an idealist it was to a different degree. They  go through somewhat similar events, but there is one big difference Cullen chose to leave, Samson didn't add this to the fact that their personalities are fundamentally different and you can see why Cullen doesn't completely let go of his idealism even if he is bitter and Samson becomes even more of a cynic. 

 

Where Cullen saw future, Samson saw none. Where Cullen rejects lyrium as something that doesn't belongs to his future, Samson sees lyrium as something that was done to him. Where Cullen sees himself as perpetrator and guilty party, Samson sees himself as a victim.

 

I think it's interesting that Samson was actually more moderate of a Templar than Cullen it seems, since Cullen initially distrusted magic quite a bit, whereas Samson seems fairly indifferent to magic in general?

 

Samson was also sympathetic enough with the mages to be willing to help Maddox out in delivering his love letter to his girlfriend, as well as aiding the mage underground railroad, as well as rescuing the Tranquil after the Circle's fell apart, the former two which I doubt that Cullen would have done in his position and the latter something he later admits he should have done?

 

Well, assuming that it was sympathy that motivated Samson and not that Maddox didn't bribe him in some way... which I suppose is possible as well, since he seems to spend the money from ferrying the mages out of Kirkwall on feeding his addiction?

 

But I actually think that Samson is a better character if you imagine that his decision to help Maddox was selfless on his part. It makes his downfall and punishment far less deserved and makes him far more sympathetic, that Meredith was willing to snuff out the man's entire career and flush it down the loo, because he was too lenient for her liking?

[TheLastArchivist]

People seem to forget one relevant detail when comparing Cullen and Samson's willpower and favoring Cullen: one was a lonely homeless drug addict with no job, no money and no family to return to while the other was a prestigious templar right from the moment he stepped in Kirkwall, having a secure job, status (Knight-Captain, second only in rank to the Knight-Commander him/herself), a home (the templar's quarters) and a stable income. 

 

 

It's very easy to think of Cullen as being so noble and strong when he's had his daily supply of lyrium religiously ministered to him throughout his long templar career without having to worry about what tomorrow would bring, while Samson had to strive against his addiction everyday without even as much as knowing whether he'd have enough to eat tomorrow.

 

Besides, Cullen chose to fight his addiction much later on, when he no longer needed to keep taking lyrium, when he already had another secure job - Commander of the Inquisition's forces -, a place to live and an income. Imagine if he took that decision while having NONE.

 

 

Also, compare how lenient Greagoir was as Knight-Commander with Meredith's rigidity. She had the Circle wiped out when there was no need for it. As for Greagoir, he risked to harbor blood mages to avoid unnecessary bloodshed.

 

I think Cullen had it easy if compared to Samson. Had Meredith been in the Ferelden Circle instead of Greagoir, Cullen would have been expelled as Samson was. And then, having no money, no place to live and no job, would he still become the noble man, moved by a higher set of moral values we all know him to be?

 

 

The truth is Cullen had something that was never given to Samson: a second chance. Cullen went to hell's deepest circle and emerged (relatively) unscathed. The Circle was saved and he was still in the Templar Order, with his job, his home and his income waiting for him. That chance was never given to Samson. He made one mistake - one that was considerably lighter than Cullen's crime (because seducing a mage is a grave crime and one that reveals just how unprepared Cullen really was as a templar) - and for that, Samson lost everything.

 

 

I don't know if the people making the comparison between both men ever took these facts in consideration. Guess not.

[TheLastArchivist]

P.S.: I don't pity Samson and I don't place Cullen on a pedestal.

Both can be admirable characters and at the same time despicable depending on what criteria you use to analyze them.

[TheLastArchivist]

P.S.²: As much as I like the character, I truly despise Cullen and forever will for him trying to seduce a mage.

 

How could be he so irresponsible? Didn't he know better? Doesn't the Chantry instruct novices over and over again on why mages and templars can never befriend each other?

Why did he choose to ignore that if he is guided by such outstanding morality? The simple answer: because he didn't have any to begin with. He was just a regular guy.

 

 

Maybe Uldred' attack served as a deserved wake up call. Maybe that's what finally taught him to have that outstading discernment in the first place: simply because he had to be pushed close to death to realize his gross mistake.

 

And once he did, he had such a superior set of moral values that he chose to take revenge on the mages by submitting them to unfair treatment.

And once again, the only reason that made him realize his second gross mistake was watching the other side of the conflict (templars) go to the extreme. 

 

 

Cullen is not superior to Samson in any way. They've both been shaped by circumstances. If Cullen were truly so superior, here's how his career would have evolved:

 

- He'd never have nurtured his infatuation for a mage.

- He'd never have insisted on killing all mages in the Harrowing Chamber.

- He'd never have stood by Meredith throughout Act 3, only rebelling in the last moment.

- He'd have waited until Corypheus' defeat to stop talking lyrium (YES, he would, because withdrawal makes you psychologically and physically fragile, and therefore, incapable of thinking straight, of even standing, imagine having to lead troops in war.)

 

The man has a long list of flaws. He doesn't have any inner special qualities, any superior conscience. What happened is that he was scared to death and that impressed him enough to change his loose morals.

[Lady Artifice]

P.S.²: As much as I like the character, I truly despise Cullen and forever will for him trying to seduce a mage.

 

How could be he so irresponsible? Didn't he know better? Doesn't the Chantry instruct novices over and over again on why mages and templars can never befriend each other?

Why did he choose to ignore that if he is guided by such outstanding morality? The simple answer: because he didn't have any to begin with. He was just a regular guy.

 

 

Maybe Uldred' attack served as a deserved wake up call. Maybe that's what finally taught him to have that outstading discernment in the first place: simply because he had to be pushed close to death to realize his gross mistake.

 

And once he did, he had such a superior set of moral values that he chose to take revenge on the mages by submitting them to unfair treatment.

And once again, the only reason that made him realize his second gross mistake was watching the other side of the conflict (templars) go to the extreme. 

 

 

Cullen is not superior to Samson in any way. They've both been shaped by circumstances. If Cullen were truly so superior, here's how his career would have evolved:

 

- He'd never have nurtured his infatuation for a mage.

- He'd never have insisted on killing all mages in the Harrowing Chamber.

- He'd never have stood by Meredith throughout Act 3, only rebelling in the last moment.

- He'd have waited until Corypheus' defeat to stop talking lyrium (YES, he would, because withdrawal makes you psychologically and physically fragile, and therefore, incapable of thinking straight, of even standing, imagine having to lead troops in war.)

 

The man has a long list of flaws. He doesn't have any inner special qualities, any superior conscience. What happened is that he was scared to death and that impressed him enough to change his loose morals.

 

I make no excuses for Cullen's attitude about mages through DA2, or his request for all the circle to be put down in DAO. Even as a Cullen fan, I agree completely that Cullen is a deeply flawed character. His characterization has often been just another tool to highlight the struggle between Mages and Templars.

 

However, the claim that he ever tried to seduce anyone is completely incorrect. He literally runs away if the mage in question attempts to seduce him. 

[SmilesJA]

Yeah Cullen is very shy what makes him endearing in a way. Still I wonder if Samson was assigned to Greigor. Would he be different? Would he be the Cullen of the Dragon Age world?

[Hellion Rex]

P.S.²: As much as I like the character, I truly despise Cullen and forever will for him trying to seduce a mage.

You utterly lost credibility at "seducing a mage". You call DAO seduction? Seriously?

[Zarro-Morningstar]

You know rather than turning this thread into a "Cullen Hate Club", how about we try and focus on Samson and his character. You can easily talk about another character without bashing them. I'm not saying that anyone is posting out of malice, but we're two pages in and to be honest it is rather uncomfortable. Sure, you can disregard this post, but don't say that no one ever warned you  After all I don't believe this thread was made to bash any character, but to talk about Samson in a calm and logical manner. 

[SmilesJA]

You utterly lost credibility at "seducing a mage". You call DAO seduction? Seriously?

 

If that's seduction then Cullen is completly awful at seducing! 

 

You know rather than turning this thread into a "Cullen Hate Club", how about we try and focus on Samson and his character. You can easily talk about another character without bashing them. I'm not saying that anyone is posting out of malice, but we're two pages in and to be honest it is rather uncomfortable. Sure, you can disregard this post, but don't say that no one ever warned you

 

I don't think it's a Cullen hate club, people are just assesing the paraells between Cullen and Samson and how Cullen succeeded where Samson failed.

[Zarro-Morningstar]

If that's seduction then Cullen is completly awful at seducing! 

 

 

I don't think it's a Cullen hate club, people are just assesing the paraells between Cullen and Samson and how Cullen succeeded where Samson failed.

Oh I know. The idea behind the thread was a great one and the discussions could be grand, but every thread is always on the edge of insanity. Lol! 

[Rannah]

People seem to forget one relevant detail when comparing Cullen and Samson's willpower and favoring Cullen: one was a lonely homeless drug addict with no job, no money and no family to return to while the other was a prestigious templar right from the moment he stepped in Kirkwall, having a secure job, status (Knight-Captain, second only in rank to the Knight-Commander him/herself), a home (the templar's quarters) and a stable income. 

 

 

It's very easy to think of Cullen as being so noble and strong when he's had his daily supply of lyrium religiously ministered to him throughout his long templar career without having to worry about what tomorrow would bring, while Samson had to strive against his addiction everyday without even as much as knowing whether he'd have enough to eat tomorrow.

 

 

 

Ahh, I was trying to write something similar earlier when comapring the circumstances of their leave of the order, but I clearly failed at 1 a.m. Cullen still had the Order to support him while Samson had nothing.

 

On the other hand, I do not think anybody has the right to despise Cullen. Both men took serious blows but in a different way. 

-Cullen saw and lived the rampaging of mages, was tortured by a demon, his mind was almost destroyed, yet he was able to regenerate *very* slowly -. with the support of the Order.

-It is true, that Samson's ideals and life were completely destroyed when he was kicked out from the Order, but he was a serious addict well before that happened - the only support Samson was given was his daily lyrium dose (till he was kicked out), nothing else. (don't know if the Order/Chantry has some kind of addiction treatment. Guess not)

 

The differences of the personalities of Greagoir and Meredith is worth considering, too. Possibly things would have turned out differently if they were switched. I think Samson would have got his second chance to overcome his addiction and make his life better (under Greagoir's command, as he seemed to care for his men better than Meredith). But we will never now if he could do it or no. Maybe his addiction is too strong to turn this life into a different direction. But with chance given, it is possible that we would not be so bitter.

 

But I still think Cullen has the stronger willpower. He could take lyrium to ease his pain, an become an addict like Samson, but he did not.

Yet he is also a more "flawed" character at the beginning than Samson: initial distrust of mages, request the Annulment of Fereldan Circle after it has been cleared, etc.

 

Both characters evolved a lot during the series, and it interesting to see - to me at least. (I think the writers wanted to make us see the flaws of the Circle/Templar/Chantry in a different angles.)

 

PS:(Cullen did not seduced any mage in DA:O...wish he could do it  . But he just run away....)

[SmilesJA]

You know maybe part of the reason why Samson wanted to smuggle apostates, was the guilt he felt when Maddox was turned tranquil. 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The guy thinks turning the Templar Order into monsters is a favor for them, I would never let that happen in any of my games.
He was a loser in DA2 and became a worse kind of loser in DAI. I would gladly kill this lunatic ending his dementia, unfortunately, I think Corypheus did it for me.

 

I agree with this.

 

What happened to him at the Kirkwall circle was terrible and just another reason why Meredith had to go. But none of it justifies what he does in DA:I. His actions are nothing more than a naked attempt to give himself some sort of purpose and self-importance again, while trying to cover it all up with "it was for their own best!". My biggest regret with him is that you can't give him a sufficiently painfull enough judgement if you capture him, but hopefully on a templar path, he will have gotten torn limb from limb by Corypheus for his failures.

[Panda]

P.S.²: As much as I like the character, I truly despise Cullen and forever will for him trying to seduce a mage.

 

How could be he so irresponsible? Didn't he know better? Doesn't the Chantry instruct novices over and over again on why mages and templars can never befriend each other?

Why did he choose to ignore that if he is guided by such outstanding morality? The simple answer: because he didn't have any to begin with. He was just a regular guy.

 

 

Maybe Uldred' attack served as a deserved wake up call. Maybe that's what finally taught him to have that outstading discernment in the first place: simply because he had to be pushed close to death to realize his gross mistake.

 

And once he did, he had such a superior set of moral values that he chose to take revenge on the mages by submitting them to unfair treatment.

And once again, the only reason that made him realize his second gross mistake was watching the other side of the conflict (templars) go to the extreme. 

 

 

Cullen is not superior to Samson in any way. They've both been shaped by circumstances. If Cullen were truly so superior, here's how his career would have evolved:

 

- He'd never have nurtured his infatuation for a mage.

- He'd never have insisted on killing all mages in the Harrowing Chamber.

- He'd never have stood by Meredith throughout Act 3, only rebelling in the last moment.

- He'd have waited until Corypheus' defeat to stop talking lyrium (YES, he would, because withdrawal makes you psychologically and physically fragile, and therefore, incapable of thinking straight, of even standing, imagine having to lead troops in war.)

 

The man has a long list of flaws. He doesn't have any inner special qualities, any superior conscience. What happened is that he was scared to death and that impressed him enough to change his loose morals.

 

The Samson and Cullen comparison was intresting but you pretty much lost me with this one.

 

Cullen had crush. It was childish yes, but he never acted on it unless you mod it to game and mods aren't canon. So he knew his place and never tried to seduce Amell/Surana.

 

I think Cullen's view towards mages in DA2 was clouded with fear and conflict that came from trauma after the Broken Circle, not revenge.

 

Cullen is flawed character who isn't any kind of knight in shining armor and I think most people know it. In DAO and DA2 he lacked confidence to do what's right and was too lenient and his judgement was clouded by trauma.

[d-boy15]

Samson would be interesting if they give him a better reason to lead the red templar and bother to explain more detail of his past, his relationship between him and tranquil.

He has potential but it seems writers did not bother to make much from it.

[ThreeF]

I think it's interesting that Samson was actually more moderate of a Templar than Cullen it seems, since Cullen initially distrusted magic quite a bit, whereas Samson seems fairly indifferent to magic in general?

Oh yes, definitely, whatever Cullen does, he commits to it 100%, I think in a way this major flaw in his character ironically is also what "saves" him in the end.  And this is also something you can use to break him in  DAI.
 

I really wish we knew more about Samson at this point, it would make him much more interesting character in DAI. In DA2 he is already walking the slippery slop, we know very little about the man before that and from what we know he was a good, if perhaps not very strong-willed, man. Neither of them are squeaky clean characters, but both show that Templars were nothing more than a tool to people who used them.

 

I like Samson's quest a lot. You can see there clearly how being a Templar undone both of them and whatever the damage, it is still festering. Cullen projects this by saying that Samson betrayed the trust of his men, something that Cullen feels was done to him, but also something Cullen knows that he himself has done to others and Samson ends up being completely broken and does not care anymore...and you can choose to help them both.

 

I also sort of wish that Samson's quest was on the Templar side, I think it would work better.

 

 

The differences of the personalities of Greagoir and Meredith is worth considering, too.

 

I'm a bit unsure about this actually. Whose idea was to send Cullen to Kirkwall of all places? If it was Greagoir then in a way he is no better than Meredith.

[AresKeith]

While I generally like seeing characters from previous iterations return, Samson being a ranking member of the Red Templars was just strange and contrived.


Were he some random grunt, that would have made sense to me.

That's why I feel like where the game should've have multiple faction bosses in the story while Calpernia and someone else would be the the leader of the Venatori and Red Templars

[Panda]

I'm a bit unsure about this actually. Whose idea was to send Cullen to Kirkwall of all places? If it was Greagoir then in a way he is no better than Meredith.

 

Cullen had recovery period in sanitarium for templars where Greagoir send him first, I think this was said in Witch Hunt. Then when Cullen returned Greagor sent him to Kirkwall to get change of place and recover like that. I think Greagoir had good intentions but didn't know that Kirkwall was full of blood mages and Meredith was very strict and could lead Cullen to wrong path in his recovery.

[ThreeF]

Cullen had recovery period in sanitarium for templars where Greagoir send him first, I think this was said in Witch Hunt. Then when Cullen returned Greagor sent him to Kirkwall to get change of place and recover like that. I think Greagoir had good intentions but didn't know that Kirkwall was full of blood mages and Meredith was very strict and could lead Cullen to wrong path in his recovery.

Hmm... I haven't played WH, but wasn't it common knowledge that Kirkwall was generally an extreme circle? I kind of got the impression that Cullen was send to Kirkwall precisely because of his outlook on mages at that point (it  fit Kirkwall's Circle mentality) and not because it would help him recover, unless the logic was to fight fire with fire, which if not for Meredith crash and burn clearly would backfire.

[Panda]

Hmm... I haven't played WH, but wasn't it common knowledge that Kirkwall was generally an extreme circle? I kind of got the impression that Cullen was send to Kirkwall precisely because of his outlook on mages at that point (it  fit Kirkwall's Circle mentality) and not because it would help him recover, unless the logic was to fight fire with fire.

 

 

I can't now find what was reason that he was sent to Kirkwall.

 

This is the Witch Hunt part: "If the Warden was a female mage, Cullen can be mentioned by gossiping mages at the Tower. They say that, following the events of Broken Circle, he was sent by Greagoir to the chantry at Greenfell until he "leveled out." (from wiki).

 

EDIT: I guess I will stop with Cullen now though when it's not related to Samson since this is his thread.

[Rannah]

I'm a bit unsure about this actually. Whose idea was to send Cullen to Kirkwall of all places? If it was Greagoir then in a way he is no better than Meredith.

 

Cullen was sent to different Chantrys (to Greenfell - mentioned in Witch Hunt - and later to Kirkwall when he is better) to recover from his post traumatic stress.

 

The idea of considering the personalities and leading techniques of Greagoir and Meredith comes from that these 2 persons are totally different and treat their knights differently as well.  While Greagoir seems to care for the well-being of his knights (send Cullen away to heal), the Meredith we know is a rigid and unforgivable commander (who is willing to do EVERYTHING to root out every corruption among the mages - and templars).

 

If Samson would have been under Greagoir's command, he might have been a chance to make his life better (Greagoir might have let Samson stay in the order after he got caught smuggling letters of a mage), while under Meredith's command, he would not have this chance at all (and we know that Meredith dismissed him immediately).