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[ThreeF]

If Samson would have been under Greagoir's command, he might have been a chance to make his life better (Greagoir seems to be willing to help his knights), while under Meredith's command he would not have this chance at all.

 

Oh yes, definitely, I don't think that Greagoir would just unceremoniously kicked Samson out.  I just meant to say that Kirkwall doesn't seems to be an optimal place for someone who just recently tried to recover from his mage-phobia, so the logic behind this decision puzzles me. Also, i'm not entirely sure if it was Greagoir decision (the Kirkwall)

[Rannah]

Oh yes, definitely, I don't think that Greagoir would just unceremoniously kicked Samson out.  I just meant to say that Kirkwall doesn't seems to be an optimal place for someone who just recently tried to recover from his mage-phobia, so the logic behind this decision puzzles me.

 

It is puzzling indeed, as we do not know much about the background of the decision. We can only guess but I think the commanding officers considered Cullen mostly healed, but did not want to send back to the same Fereldan Circle to serve. Kirkwall might have needed an experienced templar, or maybe Meredith herself proposed this solution knowing his feelings towards mages? Anyway, they gave Cullen a new Circle with a promotion to keep him busy and not to think too much about the past. Don't forget that the real great problems began after Cullen has been transferred to Kirkwall.

[Owlfruit Potion]

Oh yes, definitely, I don't think that Greagoir would just unceremoniously kicked Samson out.  I just meant to say that Kirkwall doesn't seems to be an optimal place for someone who just recently tried to recover from his mage-phobia, so the logic behind this decision puzzles me. Also, i'm not entirely sure if it was Greagoir decision (the Kirkwall)

 
Cullen's DA2 codex entry says "Greagoir sent Cullen to serve under Knight-Commander Meredith in Kirkwall, hoping time away would calm him, and Meredith found Cullen's view of mages similar to her own." It sounds to me like Greagoir just wanted to get Cullen away from Kinloch Hold and the associated bad memories, and didn't know that Meredith was like that, or he'd have chosen somewhere else to send him away to "calm down". I don't think it was well known during the timeframe of DA2 that Kirkwall's circle was that bad, or the Starkhaven apostates would never have run in that direction.

(And now back to your regularly scheduled Samson.)

[Rannah]

More on topic: I blame Meredith (through her the Templar Order and the Chantry) for giving Samson the starting push towards total insanity and Samson's weak will and possiblymental instability for all the horrible things Samson did in DA:I. I still feel sorry for him, but he does not deserve any mercy. His crimes are too grievous

[ThreeF]

It is puzzling indeed, as we do not know much about the background of the decision. We can only guess but I think the commanding officers considered Cullen mostly healed, but did not want to send back to the same Fereldan Circle to serve. Kirkwall might have needed an experienced templar, or maybe Meredith herself proposed this solution knowing his feelings towards mages? Anyway, they gave Cullen a new Circle with a promotion to keep him busy and not to think too much about the past. Don't forget that the real great problems began after Cullen has been transferred to Kirkwall.

 

 

 
Cullen's DA2 codex entry says "Greagoir sent Cullen to serve under Knight-Commander Meredith in Kirkwall, hoping time away would calm him, and Meredith found Cullen's view of mages similar to her own." It sounds to me like Greagoir just wanted to get Cullen away from Kinloch Hold and the associated bad memories, and didn't know that Meredith was like that, or he'd have chosen somewhere else to send him away to "calm down". I don't think it was well known during the timeframe of DA2 that Kirkwall's circle was that bad, or the Starkhaven apostates would never have run in that direction.

 

I see...

 

But you know, now that I think of it,  Thrask did gave Samson a chance, but perhaps at that point it was too late for him.

Samson and Cullen have a rather different progress:

Samson -> at least somewhat sympathetic of mages -> punished for it -> helps mages (motivation unclear, could be altruistic could be selfish) -> **** hit  the fan -> betrays the conspiracy against Meredith (perhaps disillusioned, perhaps is giving into lyrium addiction).

Cullen -> believes in order and helping people ->is tortured -> ends up hating mages -> is send to Kirkwall where his unresolved issues keep him blind  -> **** hit  the fan -> decides to break away.

I still think that the major difference is not that they were offered or not offered help, but the fact that one had choice (decided to leave), while the other was pushed into it.
 

[ThreeF]

 I still feel sorry for him, but he does not deserve any mercy. His crimes are too grievous

 

What Samson says about chantry is true, it doesn't justifies his actions but at that point to me most of the solutions offered seemed like revenge and not justice, I leave him to Cullen, they can help each other to sort out their issues, like group therapy

[Rannah]

What Samson says about chantry is true, it doesn't justifies his actions but at that point to me most of the solutions offered seemed like revenge and not justice, I leave him to Cullen, they can help each other to sort out their issues, like group therapy

 

Would like to see that! 

(honestly I think Cullen would try to choke Samson at the first possibility - that man is serious.)

[ThreeF]

Would like to see that! 

(honestly I think Cullen would try to choke Samson at the first possibility - that man is serious.)

 

IQ will play the role of the therapist,  the first rule  is that we keep hands and knifes to ourselves . 

 

On a more serious note:  you get to play that quest in many ways, though, with different  results. I played the Maddox card all the way through from the very beginning, because I think that a) Cullen needs to let go of his hate in order to mend and truly change his life (you sort of see a little monster trying to wake up in him during the Before the Dawn quest, the guy does everything in excess) and  b ) there is nothing you can do to Samson that has not been done already to him (letting him loose seems to me the most weird choice of all, unless of course you hate your villagers).

[TheLastArchivist]

You utterly lost credibility at "seducing a mage". You call DAO seduction? Seriously?

 

"Oh, you're not distracting. I mean, you are, but, well, you're not. I mean, you can talk to me anytime you like."

 

-Cullen in DA:O when talking to Amell right at the beginning of the game. It's one of the lines he answers to one of the dialog options available.

 

Unless you've never been wooed before, you'd not miss this obvious attempt at flirting. If I were Meredith and word got to me of such behaviour from one of my men, he'd be expelled from the Order in the same day. Or worse.

[Lady Artifice]

"Oh, you're not distracting. I mean, you are, but, well, you're not. I mean, you can talk to me anytime you like."

 

-Cullen in DA:O when talking to Amell right at the beginning of the game. It's one of the lines he answers to one of the dialog options available.

 

Unless you've never been wooed before, you'd not miss this obvious attempt at flirting. If I were Meredith and word got to me of such behaviour from one of my men, he'd be expelled from the Order in the same day. Or worse.

 

I'm afraid I'm about to be repetitive, but the fact that he literally runs away when his "seduction" bears fruit, does carry strong indications that seduction is not the intent of this line.

[Sifr]

Cullen is not superior to Samson in any way. They've both been shaped by circumstances. If Cullen were truly so superior, here's how his career would have evolved:

 

- He'd never have nurtured his infatuation for a mage.

- He'd never have insisted on killing all mages in the Harrowing Chamber.

- He'd never have stood by Meredith throughout Act 3, only rebelling in the last moment.

- He'd have waited until Corypheus' defeat to stop talking lyrium (YES, he would, because withdrawal makes you psychologically and physically fragile, and therefore, incapable of thinking straight, of even standing, imagine having to lead troops in war.)

 

I don't think anyone said that Cullen was superior in any way to Samson, merely that both men are two sides of the same coin, only one was given a chance the other didn't and thus zigged where the other zagged? Even Cullen thinks that if things had been different, he could have ended up like Samson, so accusing us of putting the guy on a pedestal when even he doesn't, really disservices the character?

 

And to be fair, none of your points really hold up to scrutiny;

 

Cullen's childish crush was simply that, a crush, one that he never acted on. He wasn't nailing her in the cloakrooms, nor abusing his authority to force her to do anything against her will (like some other Templars). Indeed, if you try to seduce him, he runs away in terror... and doesn't that reek a tad of a double-standard here, since no-one is bashing the female mage for attempting to break the rules to get some?

 

Imagine if you've been suffering for an unknown length of time at the hands of blood mages, demons and might have been without lyrium for long enough that you're in the initial stages of withdrawal? Would you be in the most psychologically stable position to offer any kind of sound judgement?

 

By Act 3, Meredith had clamped down and consolidated her power with both the Templars and over Kirkwall, so there was very little that Cullen could actually do to challenge her even if he tried? You do remember what happened when Thrask's coalition of Mages and Templars tried to overthrow her, they ended up being hung in front of the Gallows as a warning? Furthermore, for the most part her actions during Act 3 were paranoid and draconian (but what's new), but not yet as obviously unstable that you'd question her lead on things? It's only when she went completely doolally in front of everyone and threaten her own officers, that he decided to relieve her of command.

 

As for his Lyrium addiction and withdrawal, he's long since appeared to have gotten over the hump when it comes to going cold-turkey where you have a physiological need for the drug in your system and now merely is battling the psychological need instead? Plus he does act responsibly, having Cassandra as his sponsor and contingency to relieve him of command if he ever fails in his duties? It's not like he did this without telling anyone of what he was doing and didn't have the knowledge and support of his co-workers? He only tells the Inquisitor when s/he becomes his direct superior, whereas before, they were technically just an Agent and not in the "official" chain of command.

 

"Oh, you're not distracting. I mean, you are, but, well, you're not. I mean, you can talk to me anytime you like."

 

-Cullen in DA:O when talking to Amell right at the beginning of the game. It's one of the lines he answers to one of the dialog options available.

 

Unless you've never been wooed before, you'd not miss this obvious attempt at flirting. If I were Meredith and word got to me of such behaviour from one of my men, he'd be expelled from the Order in the same day. Or worse.

 

How is that seduction, that's mostly just bumbling flirting?

 

Given the amount of abuse and even possible rape going on in the Gallows, I doubt Meredith would have expelled someone for what can barely be called flirting. She'd have probably given the Templar a stern warning and punished the mage instead to remove their "corrupting" influence?

 

As for Greagoir, he'd have probably given him a light warning about not fraternising, but there's no actual rule about talking to the mages (even if most Templars don't), which is all Cullen was actually suggesting with that line?

[ThreeF]

How is that seduction, that's mostly just bumbling flirting?

 

 

Yeah, I think that jumping from really awkward flirting (perhaps even for the first time in his life) to loose morals and nurturing infatuation is a really big stretch.

[Bad King]

 While I generally like seeing characters from previous iterations return, Samson being a ranking member of the Red Templars was just strange and contrived.

 

 

Were he some random grunt, that would have made sense to me.

 

It felt contrived at first, but the game at least goes on to provide a reason as to why he is so powerful: he is unusually resistant to many of the negative effects of red lyrium. He's freakishly strong and somewhat crazed, but he doesn't become a mindless pawn/dead like the majority do. When the templars started hitting the red lyrium, Samson would have been the only one to retain most of his intelligence. Combine this with his anti-Chantry fervour and the fact that he was always a skilled warrior, and it makes some sense that he was able to rise to power within the red templars.

[EmissaryofLies]

Frankenstein deserves his monster; Samson is the model Templar for Thedas.

[SgtSteel91]

It felt contrived at first, but the game at least goes on to provide a reason as to why he is so powerful: he is unusually resistant to many of the negative effects of red lyrium. He's freakishly strong and somewhat crazed, but he doesn't become a mindless pawn/dead like the majority do. When the templars started hitting the red lyrium, Samson would have been the only one to retain most of his intelligence. Combine this with his anti-Chantry fervour and the fact that he was always a skilled warrior, and it makes some sense that he was able to rise to power within the red templars.

 

Having Red Lyrium Power Armor and Meredith's Red Lyrium Sword also helps.

 

Also, we see Samson burnt out from Lyrium withdrawal in DA2. Now that he has his fix, he's as good as any Templar.

[DuskWanderer]

There is plenty of tragedy in Samson. If I recall, the devs said the opponents were designed to be the evil opposites for the inner circle, and certainly Cullen and Samson mirror each other (Leliana mirrors Calpernia, I think, while Josephine mirrors Florianne) 

 

I think Samson just truly saw no other path, and watched the order he actually liked fall apart because, as several people mention, the Chantry puts them in danger a lot and the Divine and others vilify them for the actions of a few, while forgiving the mages for doing far worse. 

[Rekkampum]

He's the Templar Thedas deserves, but not the one it needs right now... [insert DA-themed monologue of Commissioner Gordon's words in The Dark Knight]

[TheLastArchivist]

I keep wondering that, if the templars thought they weren't going to die from lyrium withdrawal, maybe they wouldn't have chosen to follow Corypheus.

 

Another lie the Chantry propagated which had devastating consequences.

[Master Warder Z_]

I keep wondering that, if the templars thought they weren't going to die from lyrium withdrawal, maybe they wouldn't have chosen to follow Corypheus.

Another lie the Chantry propagated which had devastating consequences.

Templars can die from withdrawal.

It's a lot more then a mere intoxicant.

Your taking in a force that grounds reality in Thedas, something that can snuff magic from the hands of a mage.

Something that changes you down to the bone.

It's a primal force, not heroin.

[ThreeF]

Templars can die and go mad from withdrawal, they will also lose memories at some point if they continue use lyrium.

 

Also, if you conciser that some Templars are given at birth to the Order the things that are done to them are pretty screwy

[Master Warder Z_]

Screwy? It's a noble choice.

It's a sacrifice for the protection of the innocent against magic and it's horrors. They can walk away at anytime before their vigil.

Those that chose to stay know the price of that choice.

[raging_monkey]

i love samson a great templar warrior and adversary. Helps keep my PTs connected

[ThreeF]

Screwy? It's a noble choice.
 

Choice? Not when you are an infant.

 

Sure they can walk away, but I get the impression that not many do and realistically speaking the Chantry would want to ensure that they are not feeding and educating freeloaders, it's not made of money. Children are very impressionable and  moldable. Sure it's a noble cause the way you put it, but how many of such children go into it fully understanding the consequences? I have my doubt that many do, neither Samson, not Cullen did. Also I have this feeling that chantry wasn't all that happy with Alistair wanting to leave, it took Duncan to get away from that life, it could be because of who Alistair was, but  it  could be also because the Chantryhad put considerable effort in his education, nothing in life is without strings.

[TheLastArchivist]

Templars can die from withdrawal.

It's a lot more then a mere intoxicant.

Your taking in a force that grounds reality in Thedas, something that can snuff magic from the hands of a mage.

Something that changes you down to the bone.

It's a primal force, not heroin.

 

Yep, they can die. Doesn't mean they will. That's the problem. You'll take any short cut that makes sure you can keep your addiction.

 

Some end up mad, eventually losing all their memories and sense of self, like stated in the Codex Confessions Of A Lyrium Addict. The poor guy couldn't even sign his name due to his shaky hands and after having completely forgotten how he was called.

 

If the templars tried to overcome their addiction, maybe most of them would've survived, like Cullen did.

One of my favourite epilogues is the one where the last members of the Order follow his example. 

[TheLastArchivist]

What impresses me the most is that Bioware presented the harsh reality of a drug addict with remarkable accuracy through Samson's character:

 

'Every one of those templars would've suffered until nothing was left. And then, be forced to kill and die.'

-Samson during his trial.

 

 

Allow me to say this:

I live in a country where drug consumption is a sad reality very much present in every social class: from the lowliest beggar to the rich and the extravagant, marijuana and coccaine are the most consumed drugs.

I can testify that the desperate need to keep one's consumption is the main reason behind the escalating violence. Every poor drug addict commits robbery (very often followed by homicide) just to have enough money to afford the next shot.

 

Drugs are expensive here, but incredibly easy to find. Go to any poor community and there'll always be a drug dealer ready to trade the product you want for "a fair price". Most people are desperate and sell everything they have, even going as far as murdering their parents and relatives just to steal from them and be able to sustain their addiction.

As if that weren't enough, more than half the schools have students who are completely addicted and who end up providing and later selling drugs to their friends.

 

 

What Samson said about the templars' gruesome fate is a faithful portrait of reality. Art imitates life here.

Which is why I can understand what he did and WHY he did it. This doesn't excuse his crimes, but until you live the reality of a city, a country or any other place where almost everyone around you are hopelessly addicted to drugs, you just don't understand why it's impossible for them to turn away from this path of self-destruction. Even with proper help, the truth is most of them fail. They're lost to the drug.

 

It's just stronger than you. Try to win and you're fighting a battle already lost:

 

"I fought and lost long before Corypheus. Your Commander thinks he knows what that feels like? He's wrong."