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[Arcanista]

Realllly looking forward to the Cal story now, too.

 

 

Gaaaaaahhhh I'm dying here that I've woken to this wonderful thing that Jo Berry has written.

Jo, that is just as I imagined it might go and it was so beautifully written!

Can I get any more Samson feels? That paper crane you made Arcanista just sent me toppling over the edge.

 

haha, I read the story and I had to. And I just had this moment of 'ugh I wish I had some origami paper' but then 'wait I have my fancy Japanese fountain pen paper that I can make a square from... oh crap that's literally perfect' and there we go~

[Sable Rhapsody]

You know what really got to me and left that ache of FEELS OH GOD WHY?  The stuff about Meredith, and Samson's time serving the Chantry.

 

DA2 had its flaws, and one of those was only portraying the extremists who lit the spark for the mage/templar war.  It barely touched on all the people who got caught in between.  All those years playing as Hawke, seeing Meredith squeeze the mages, and Samson's story showed us a glimpse of how badly it affected the other side.  It wasn't just the lyrium, or her sword.  The whole atmosphere of the Gallows was poison, pure and simple, long before the lyrium idol even reached Meredith's desk.  The whole system was already rotten to the core, waiting for a push to send it toppling over.

 

For perspective: Samson had already been tossed out of the templars before Act One, with a reputation for lyrium addiction and sympathizing with the mages.  Again, well before Meredith got the red lyrium sword.  For all seven years of DA2, Samson was still trying to help mages like Feynriel.  And look what he got for his trouble.

 

DA:I (and the tie-in novel Asunder) IMO did the best job of showing us the sympathetic side of the templars.  And in a lot of ways, they're not that different from the mages.  Samson wants the Chantry to pay for its mistakes, to burn it down and raise a new world from its ashes, and he knows he'll pay a terrible cost to do it.  Sound reminiscent of Anders?  I know there are people who hate both characters for what they've done, but honestly, I find it hard not to sympathize.  If I'd been in Samson's shoes, or Anders', or even just a mage or templar living in the shadow of the Gallows...I'd want to take a torch to the whole thing too.

 

OK, done rambling.  Gonna go hide in a corner with my feels and some gelato now.

[Tigrae]

Thank you Jo Berry! That was amazing - the insight into his character, his recruitment, and Maddox! So awesome, I can't thank you enough. I am so excited for the Calpernia piece!

 

I'm just going to be over here, wrapped in a blanket, feeling all these feels. Everyone is welcome to join my blanket burrito feel-squad.

 

[SgtSteel91]

Most of you are on the tumblargs anyway, but just to give this thread a reason to go to the top. 

 

Jo Berry, this is so beautiful: http://blog.bioware....ry-paper-steel/

 

I mean, it's depicted in subtext in game, but it's good to see his compassion and kindness displayed so openly. Same thing with Maddox's sort of enduring loyalty and friendship.   Hopefully more people come to see that and appreciate him more. Looking forward to the Calpernia follow-up!

 

I am crying at work.  Which is fine. It's a fine thing to happen.  I have an office. I can close my door...

 

**** man, I feel for Samson and the Red Templars a lot more now. That story was great.

[SgtSteel91]

 

For perspective: Samson had already been tossed out of the templars before Act One, with a reputation for lyrium addiction and sympathizing with the mages.  Again, well before Meredith got the red lyrium sword.  For all seven years of DA2, Samson was still trying to help mages like Feynriel.  And look what he got for his trouble.

 

It's not so different to Anders, who spent the same seven years running a clinic for refugees and the poor in Darktown, who were overlooked by the Chantry and trying to change things peacefully, whether it was helping the Mage underground, bringing evidence of corruption to people who could step in and stop it, and writing his manifesto.

[Sable Rhapsody]

It's not so different to Anders, who spent the same seven years running a clinic for refugees and the poor in Darktown, who were overlooked by the Chantry and trying to change things peacefully, whether it was helping the Mage underground, bringing evidence of corruption to people who could step in and stop it, and writing his manifesto.

 

Yeah.  I love Anders' character, and the parallels between the two are making my feels explode.

 

I know it's an institutional thing, and most of the people left in the Chantry are not directly responsible for all the suck faced by the mages and templars under their rule.  But I still kind of wanna sic hardened!Leliana on them after reading that.

[The Baconer]

**** man, I feel for Samson and the Red Templars a lot more now. That story was great.

Well. I feel sorry for the men and women he sentenced to a fate worse than death. Not so much for Samson himself.

It was a nice read though.

[SgtSteel91]

Well. I feel sorry for the men and women he sentenced to a fate worse than death. Not so much for Samson himself.

It was a nice read though.

 

After this, I wonder if most of the Templars knew exactly what was going to happen to them and accepted it so they could destroy the Chantry and build a new world under Corypheus where no one would suffer like they did under the Chantry.

[ModernAcademic]

If anyone wanna read Cullen and Samson arguing about their years in Kirkwall under Meredith's leadership, there's a scene dedicated to it in this chapter.

It's a fan's work, though.

(Sorry for the spam. I'll stop now. *hangs head in shame*)

[Sable Rhapsody]

After this, I wonder if most of the Templars knew exactly what was going to happen to them and accepted it so they could destroy the Chantry and build a new world under Corypheus where no one would suffer like they did under the Chantry.

 

I would, if I were them 

 

Also I bring sad short fanfiction, inspired by Joanna Berry's story.  Meer should probably revoke my posting privileges 

[Bugsie]

 

I would, if I were them 

 

Also I bring sad short fanfiction, inspired by Joanna Berry's story.  Meer should probably revoke my posting privileges 

[The Baconer]

After this, I wonder if most of the Templars knew exactly what was going to happen to them and accepted it so they could destroy the Chantry and build a new world under Corypheus where no one would suffer like they did under the Chantry.

It would take a special kind of delusion to believe there would be no suffering under Corypheus. I would attribute it more to just being hooked to the red stuff and knowing who will give them more.

[Sable Rhapsody]

It would take a special kind of delusion to believe there would be no suffering under Corypheus. I would attribute it more to just being hooked to the red stuff and knowing who will give them more.

 

It's not necessarily delusion.  Even Cullen, who has almost nothing good to say about the red templars, expresses sympathy for the frustration and anger they must feel.  Righteous hatred of the Chantry and its policies drove Anders to violence, and I can sympathize with the red templars for taking that same road.  At a certain point, people break under enough pain and suffering, and they lash out blindly.

[Sable Rhapsody]

 

If it's any consolation, I made me cry too 

[Bugsie]

If it's any consolation, I made me cry too 

Group hug

 

[The Baconer]

It's not necessarily delusion. Even Cullen, who has almost nothing good to say about the red templars, expresses sympathy for the frustration and anger they must feel. Righteous hatred of the Chantry and its policies drove Anders to violence, and I can sympathize with the red templars for taking that same road. At a certain point, people break under enough pain and suffering, and they lash out blindly.

Their response is understandable on some levels, but not sympathetic. They turned around to inflict the same kind of suffering upon others (actually, a worse kind), so they lose their claim to any grievance.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Their response is understandable on some levels, but not sympathetic. They turned around to inflict the same kind of suffering upon others (actually, a worse kind), so they lose their claim to any grievance.

 

OK, so I'm a softie who sympathizes with most characters, even the ones who do things that I don't condone    IMO the really violent rebel mages and the red templars are just two sides of the same coin, the end product of 900 years of a flawed system.  Yes, they are responsible for their actions and the violence and suffering they sow.  But there's also IMO a tragedy in the world that brought them to that state.

[Bugsie]

Literature is full of 'sympathy for the monster' arcs (starting with Frankenstein maybe?)  Because that feeling actually exists in people in real life.

[ModernAcademic]

TheBaconer:

As a fan of the character, I don't sympathize with what Samson did to the templars, and I certainly don't try to justify in my head the fact that he just "stood around and did nothing" while they were being fed red lyrium by the Envy demon. 

However, it's understandable why he did it. We have to remember Samson spent almost 10 years as an addict in the streets. This period snuffed the fight out of him, as he admits in DA2 to Hawke. And when the Chantry abandoned both mages and templars, each group fell to chaos. 

[ModernAcademic]

When Samson was offered his dignity back, he couldn't say no. He was subdued, demoralised by the consequences of Meredith's actions. Had he known back then Corypheus would destroy the templars, would he have accepted to become his general? I don't think so.

 

In prison, he shows regret for his actions, admitting he shouldn't have accepted Corypheus' offer. Even he admits this was the wrong move. And as he says in his trial, he saw what he was doing, he doesn't offer a defence for his actions and doesn't ask for mercy. 

[ModernAcademic]

The thing is, what should be on trial was the incompetence of bad authority, such as Meredith (giving punishment disproportionate to people's crimes and perpetuating injustice) and the Chantry (turning a blind eye to the corruption in the Templar Order and the systematic abuse of mages). And it was the failure of authority that allowed for Corypheus to explore the weakness of crumbling institutions and turn them against Thedas itself.

[BoscoBread]

Their response is understandable on some levels, but not sympathetic. They turned around to inflict the same kind of suffering upon others (actually, a worse kind), so they lose their claim to any grievance.

Having sympathy for a person does not also mean you excuse their actions.  No-one here certainly would. He doesn't either. He tells you he fed them lies in an foolish effort to make the world better(like Anders and probably the same line we'll hear from Solas). He actually quite likes the Templar order. He sees their necessity as sort of watchman over the mages and as protectors of the public from bad mages. 

 

We're told by multiple people in game - including one of your own companions(Solas) - that one must take regrettable action to make the world they want to see.  This is true. You want radical reform. You have to be radical.  You want the chantry to change, you better put Leliana in charge. 

 

The tragedy of Samson is that underneath all of his terrible decisions is this person who is actually quite compassionate and gentle.  If he had been in the right place at the right time, maybe been given more consideration by the right people, his life would have been quite different. He could have done actual good.   To me it's a terribly sad story.

[The Baconer]

Having sympathy for a person does not also mean you excuse their actions.  No-one here certainly would. He doesn't either. He tells you he fed them lies in an foolish effort to make the world better(like Anders and probably the same line we'll hear from Solas). He actually quite likes the Templar order. He sees their necessity as sort of watchman over the mages and as protectors of the public from bad mages. 

 

We're told by multiple people in game - including one of your own companions(Solas) - that one must take regrettable action to make the world they want to see.  This is true. You want radical reform. You have to be radical.  You want the chantry to change, you better put Leliana in charge. 

 

The tragedy of Samson is that underneath all of his terrible decisions is this person who is actually quite compassionate and gentle.  If he had been in the right place at the right time, maybe been given more consideration by the right people, his life would have been quite different. He could have done actual good.   To me it's a terribly sad story.

 

I absolutely agree that his arc is a tragedy, but it is another thing entirely to become the exact same thing (well, again, actually worse) you rebel against. As one examines the sheer magnitude of death and misery that were the results of his choices, we can only wonder how many more Samsons, Merediths, Malifants, Uldreds etc. will be created in their wake.

[ModernAcademic]

As one examines the sheer magnitude of death and misery that were the results of his choices, we can only wonder how many more Samsons, Merediths, Malifants, Uldreds etc. will be created in their wake.

Exactly!

A broken and corrupt system maintained by bad authority spawns aberrations that create injustice.

Does that justify or render those who perpetuated injustice innocent? No. But it's quite different blaming them for being the root cause of said injustice and looking at the real causes that allowed things to get this far.

[Meer]

Also I bring sad short fanfiction, inspired by Joanna Berry's story.  Meer should probably revoke my posting privileges 

I would do this thing to protect the others from feels if your work didn't leave me weeping so despondently.