1268 réponses à ce sujet

[Arcanista]

I was just make a point about Therinfal baing his plan, not about his life or death, sorry by not making it clear.
And Im not blaming only him, the others died by the hand of my Inquisitor or by the hands of the others templars, but to me he is the main responsible for what happened at Therinfal, it was his plan and I can do nothing about him.
If the Inquisition dissolve the Templar Order and Leliana is made Divine it didnt destroyed the templars, they still exist but they are now Inquisition's templars, it doesnt matter to me who they serve. They cease to exist because of Therinfal.

 

Ah, I see now. Still, I think it's hard to say for certain that it was his plan-- I do feel the simple 'Samson has failed' is a bit sparse to be hanging that on, especially given the letter we have that transfers control. But I understand you interpreting it that way and I don't think it's unreasonable, though I do myself feel the Lord Seeker had more control in that situation.

 

I do feel that the Lord Seeker's complicity should not be disregarded, though; he, being impersonated by Envy of his own free will, was an active presence in Therinfal and probably more specifically responsible for at least the small-scale events there, even if you don't consider him militarily in control.

 

Either way though, I don't think anyone's trying to present Samson as an agent of good here, simply that from his own perspective, he was making the best of a bad situation. 'The best' was horrible, no lie. But I don't see a lot of malice in the actions here.

[Arcanista]

If nothing else, I think everyone can agree that Samson himself would be just as baffled by the impassioned pseudo-defenses of him.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Another good man crushed by a dehumanizing world. I was on the fence about serving him to kirkwall on a silver platter to get varric approval points but after reading this, I just can't. He deserves redemption, he has good in him. He should be a part of the Inquisition. Those bible thumping chantry and cruel templars deserve to burn. I would trade a million Delrin Barris for one Samson.

He deserves to pay for the terrible things he's done. Nothing more, nothing less. 

[AresKeith]

Another good man crushed by a dehumanizing world. I was on the fence about serving him to kirkwall on a silver platter to get varric approval points but after reading this, I just can't. He deserves redemption, he has good in him. He should be a part of the Inquisition. Those bible thumping chantry and cruel templars deserve to burn. I would trade a million Delrin Barris for one Samson.

 

Because he's obviously better after what he's been doing 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Because he's obviously better after what he's been doing 

No worse than the path the Chantry and the Seekers laid out for them- which was war and self destruction. They twisted the templars already, they don't protect mages, they abuse them, and then they abuse the good templars by using them and burning out their minds. They treated them like dogs of war that need to be sicked on the chantry's enemies until they can't fight anymore. Seriously, in context, how can anyone not sympathize with at least going out in a blaze of glory.

 

Paint Samson as a monster, but he was made by the evils of men.

[Giton]

People are having trouble with my General of the Fabulous Socks?

 

THE GALL.

 

[AresKeith]

No worse than the path the Chantry and the Seekers laid out for them- which was war and self destruction. They twisted the templars already, they don't protect mages, they abuse them, and then they abuse the good templars by using them and burning out their minds. They treated them like dogs of war that need to be sicked on the chantry's enemies until they can't fight anymore. Seriously, in context, how can anyone not sympathize with at least going out in a blaze of glory.

 

The bias and exaggeration in the post is so strong I can't even begin to start with

[Sports72Xtrm]

The bias and exaggeration in the post is so strong I can't even begin to start with

Yes, the Chantry and templar apologists always dismiss criticism when it's inconvenient. We get it, they revel in cruelty and have no care to reflect on their shortcomings with a critical eye.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No worse than the path the Chantry and the Seekers laid out for them- which was war and self destruction. They twisted the templars already, they don't protect mages, they abuse them, and then they abuse the good templars by using them and burning out their minds. They treated them like dogs of war that need to be sicked on the chantry's enemies until they can't fight anymore. Seriously, in context, how can anyone not sympathize with at least going out in a blaze of glory.

 

Paint Samson as a monster, but he was made by the evils of men.

The people in Emprise du Lion disagree. They had friends and family twisted into Red Lyrium monstrosities due to Samson.  

[Boost32]

Ah, I see now. Still, I think it's hard to say for certain that it was his plan-- I do feel the simple 'Samson has failed' is a bit sparse to be hanging that on, especially given the letter we have that transfers control. But I understand you interpreting it that way and I don't think it's unreasonable, though I do myself feel the Lord Seeker had more control in that situation.

I do feel that the Lord Seeker's complicity should not be disregarded, though; he, being impersonated by Envy of his own free will, was an active presence in Therinfal and probably more specifically responsible for at least the small-scale events there, even if you don't consider him militarily in control.

Either way though, I don't think anyone's trying to present Samson as an agent of good here, simply that from his own perspective, he was making the best of a bad situation. 'The best' was horrible, no lie. But I don't see a lot of malice in the actions here.

Lucius was too busy killing the Seekers, he sent a letter to Envy too (http://img3.wikia.no...Therinfal_3.png), if he had a large role at Therinfal he would have said in his quest, he didnt even care about what happened there.
The Samson letter was to Envy, the quotation mark around Lord Seeker pretty much imply it.

Neither I believe anyone was saying he is a good man, we disagree where he is justified and if he is redeemable. He says he didnt have changed in the story, but to me he changed to be the worst monster in the red templar army, the difference is that his change was in his mind not in his appearence.

[AresKeith]

Yes, the Chantry and templar apologists always dismiss criticism when it's inconvenient. We get it, they revel in cruelty and have no care to reflect on their shortcomings with a critical eye.

 

And now your making baseless assumptions 

[Sports72Xtrm]

The people in Emprise du Lion disagree. They had friends and family twisted into Red Lyrium monstrosities due to Samson.  

taking lyrium itself twists you either way. Where was the sympathy once they're so desperate for lyrium, that they get headaches, chills, and nightmares with out it. And if you aren't a good soldier following bad orders, you're punished. They were doomed already.

[The Baconer]

Those bible thumping chantry and cruel templars deserve to burn. I would trade a million Delrin Barris for one Samson.

 

Samson is the same peddler of poison and exploiter he castigates the Chantry for being... in addition to being a slaver and mass murderer.

 

Delrin will choose to be a part of the solution, not the problem. But you'd rather trade a million of him for a betrayer. The force of "Draco in leather pants" is too strong here.

[Sports72Xtrm]

And now your making baseless assumptions 

Not really, all you do is just be dismissive and accusing me of being exaggerating instead of  deconstructing my arguments or debating like an intelligent person . Look man, if you want to discuss then discuss but if you're goal is just to be offensive then this exchange is over.

[Tigrae]

MORE SAMSON IN THE SAMSON THREAD

 

 

[Source]

[AresKeith]

Not really, all you do is just be dismissive and accusing me of being exaggerating instead of  deconstructing my arguments or debating like an intelligent person . Look man, if you want to discuss then discuss but if you're goal is just to be offensive then this exchange is over.

 

Your post was exaggerated based on your personal dislike of the chantry and Templars, which makes a discussion difficult based on that alone

[Arcanista]

Lucius was too busy killing the Seekers, he sent a letter to Envy too (http://img3.wikia.no...Therinfal_3.png), if he had a large role at Therinfal he would have said in his quest, he didnt even care about what happened there.

Neither I believe anyone was saying he is a good man, we disagree where he is justified and if he is redeemable. He says he didnt have changed in the story, but to me he changed to be the worst monster in he red templar army, the difference is that his change was in his mind not in his appearence.

 

Well, I think it's in question when exactly he left, is all-- I know that's more or less undefined, and I know it's not clear which one you're dealing with in the Val Royeaux encounter. That corpse in the locked room in Therinfal's been there for a while; that all could have happened easily before the swap, but it's hard to say. He certainly willfully placed Envy in command, and Envy did have the capacity to make decisions for itself, though. So I wouldn't necessarily write him/them off so easily. But I see what you're saying. Certainly the text could support either reading.

 

As far as justification-- no, I don't think Samson is justified in his actions. I'm not sure anyone's making that claim. I do think he tries to justify his actions to himself, and I do think that sometimes he successfully convinces himself, a little bit. Usually I think he fails to do that.

 

Like, the fact that I do think his actions came out of a place of fairly rational thought doesn't make them justified-- in a lot of ways it makes it worse, I find, because it means he can sit down, think it through, and still willfully choose to do what he does. It's kind of a fine point of distinction-- it is cruel, but he didn't do it to be cruel. A sin of ill action, rather than of ill intent.

 

But I mean I think we've got a pretty good understanding of each other at least, now, so yay!

[AresKeith]

MORE SAMSON IN THE SAMSON THREAD

 

 

[Source]

 

That's really good

 

I actually liked the way HoDA designed his armor compared to DAI

[Tigrae]

 

[Source]

[Sports72Xtrm]

Samson is the same peddler of poison and exploiter he castigates the Chantry for being... in addition to being a slaver and mass murderer.

 

Delrin will choose to be a part of the solution, not the problem. But you'd rather trade a million of him for a betrayer. The force of "Draco in leather pants" is too strong here.

Once a man is poisoned, how can you poison a doomed man even more? And the Chantry had already poisoned the templars. He was going to direct his armies' wrath against the chantry so no one will have to endure what he endured ever again. He makes no apologies, he said he'd rather his soldiers die at their best. Delrin would have followed him to for all we know when envy or any bad templar with power was his superior and told him to be a good soldier and abuse their power.

[Bugsie]

 

Sorry but I dont see how turning people into raging monsters who will suffer a untinkable pain and be turned into a red lyrium statue is caring for them.

To Samson, giving them the red is giving them a fitting end, he was willing to go through the pain too, to die for and with them (and possibly he did die for them if you choose the Templar path) no one is excusing it as anything but monumental **** up.  It was the one thing that the chantry couldn't or didn't give them (it's alluded that they can die without lyrium - and that's the regular blue stuff).  Who abandoned those Templars at Kirkwall?  Was it Samson?  No.  Who gave those in pain of withdrawal relief?  Was it the Chantry?  No.  Look it's more complex than what I can put here.  Whatever you say - he cared, whatever you say he is not a socio-path, canon and the writing, the actual words written says he cares (however warped you think it might be).  

 

In regard to the Chantry, its destruction and reformation and in general 'spiritual' themes play a huge part of inquisition's narrative, who we choose as divine influences that outcome.  It's complex and interwoven and not always done particularly well but its there.  I can't, given what is given to me in the story lay the blame solely at Samson's feet any more than I lay the destruction of the elven pantheon on one god.  

 

Monster, villain, 'the destruction of your beloved Templars' - if that's all you see, okay, but I think you're missing a much more interesting (and broader) story.

[AresKeith]

Once a man is poisoned, how can you poison a doomed man even more? And the Chantry had already poisoned the templars. He was going to direct his armies' wrath against the chantry so no one will have to endure what he endured ever again. He makes no apologies, he said he'd rather his soldiers die at his best. Delrin would have followed him to for all we know when envy or any bad templar with power was his superior and told him to be a good soldier and abuse their power.

 

That is a lie and you know it, the entire point behind that was for them to turn all of them into Red Templars

 

Delrin was one of the people who resisted them

[Tigrae]

 

 

[Samson Fan Mix]

[Sports72Xtrm]

That is a lie and you know it, the entire point behind that was for them to turn all of them into Red Templars

 

Delrin was one of the people who resisted them

Delrin knew they were taking red lyrium and condoned it. The only thing he got upset about was following an envy demon after the fact it was revealed. This whole resistance from the inside thing is head cannon.

[Tigrae]

 

 

[Source]