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The Samson thread: We are all Samsonsexual!


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#951
Arcanista

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To Samson, giving them the red is giving them a fitting end, he was willing to go through the pain too, to die for and with them (and possibly he did die for them if you choose the Templar path) no one is excusing it as anything but monumental **** up.  It was the one thing that the chantry couldn't or didn't give them (it's alluded that they can die without lyrium - and that's the regular blue stuff).  Who abandoned those Templars at Kirkwall?  Was it Samson?  No.  Who gave those in pain of withdrawal relief?  Was it the Chantry?  No.  Look it's more complex than what I can put here.  Whatever you say - he cared, whatever you say he is not a socio-path, canon and the writing, the actual words written says he cares (however warped you think it might be).  

 

In regard to the Chantry, its destruction and reformation and in general 'spiritual' themes play a huge part of inquisition's narrative, who we choose as divine influences that outcome.  It's complex and interwoven and not always done particularly well but its there.  I can't, given what is given to me in the story lay the blame solely at Samson's feet any more than I lay the destruction of the elven pantheon on one god.  

 

Monster, villain, 'the destruction of your beloved Templars' - if that's all you see, okay, but I think you're missing a much more interesting (and broader) story.

 

 

I mean in this too I note that being betrayed by one's faith is the primary uniting thread in the villains of Inquisition-- Samson, who did believe and walks away from that faith, Calpernia, who takes Corypheus as her god only for him to plan to chain her again, Corypheus, whose god abandoned him, who searched for his god and found nothing and now sees a vaccuum to be filled.

 

This is not really pertinent to the blame game we're going through right now, but it's interesting to look at how they're all in different states of loss of faith, and how they choose to react to that loss.


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#952
Hanako Ikezawa

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taking lyrium itself twists you either way. Where was the sympathy once they're so desperate for lyrium, that they get headaches, chills, and nightmares with out it. And if you aren't a good soldier following bad orders, you're punished. They were doomed already.

What? I'm talking about the villagers Samson had his Red Templars abduct and turn into more Red Templars. I agree what the Chantry did to the Templars was bad, but the people who became Templars volunteered. Samson did not give the same curtesy to those he turned into Red Templars, instead resorting to kidnapping and forcing them to turn. 



#953
The Baconer

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Once a man is poisoned, how can you poison a doomed man even more?

 

Start giving him red Lyrium instead of blue Lyrium.

 

 

And the Chantry had already poisoned the templars.

 

Again, equivocating the effects of red Lyrium to blue Lyrium.

 

 

He makes no apologies, he said he'd rather his soldiers die at their best.

 

Yes, gibbering mutants frothing at the mouth and sprouting crystals.

 

 

Delrin would have followed him to for all we know when envy or any bad templar with power was his superior and told him to be a good soldier and abuse their power.

 

Delrin dies at Therinfal if the Inquisitor does not go there, as confirmed by the Keep.


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#954
AresKeith

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Delrin knew they were taking red lyrium and condoned it. The only thing he got upset about was following an envy demon after the fact it was revealed. This whole resistance from the inside thing is head cannon.

 

No it isn't considering the fact that they killed any Templars who resisted 



#955
Bugsie

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Yes, gibbering mutants frothing at the mouth and sprouting crystals.

 

 

That's not very nice thing to say.  They just need to find the right man/woman

 

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#956
Giton

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By: Drawarabbitonfire


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#957
Sports72Xtrm

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What? I'm talking about the villagers Samson had his Red Templars abduct and turn into more Red Templars. I agree what the Chantry did to the Templars was bad, but the people who became Templars volunteered. Samson did not give the same curtesy to those he turned into Red Templars, instead resorting to kidnapping and forcing them to turn. 

I will concede that he was negligent about Imshael. I don't think Samson would condone what he'd done had he known he was a demon. Samson from his perspective, is altruistic and not addicted to red lyium so he thought his men and the people would be in good hands. For all he knew, all they were ordered to do was to farm and procure a quarry, not enslave the people of that village.



#958
BoscoBread

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Yes, gibbering mutants frothing at the mouth and sprouting crystals.

 

 

 

HEY NOW! Those "gibbering mutants" always promise to build me a crystal garden in my skull. I THINK THAT'S VERY SWEET!


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#959
Tigrae

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I mean in this too I note that being betrayed by one's faith is the primary uniting thread in the villains of Inquisition-- Samson, who did believe and walks away from that faith, Calpernia, who takes Corypheus as her god only for him to plan to chain her again, Corypheus, whose god abandoned him, who searched for his god and found nothing and now sees a vaccuum to be filled.

 

This is not really pertinent to the blame game we're going through right now, but it's interesting to look at how they're all in different states of loss of faith, and how they choose to react to that loss.

 

I'm trying to remember who it was that brought up the idea that they're all united on the outside, but secretly working towards their own ends. Both Calpernia and Samson know that Corypheus' true goal is to sit on that throne - he's not beholden to either one of them. I mean, you can bring that up pretty plainly in dialogue with both of them (and convince Calpernia to fly free if you do her personal quest).

 

But I agree - the dark!Inquisition is made up of people who are all disenfranchised, as opposed to the Inquisition which was founded by devout Andrastians who really haven't had their faith shaken at all.


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#960
Arcanista

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What? I'm talking about the villagers Samson had his Red Templars abduct and turn into more Red Templars. I agree what the Chantry did to the Templars was bad, but the people who became Templars volunteered. Samson did not give the same curtesy to those he turned into Red Templars, instead resorting to kidnapping and forcing them to turn. 

 

Eeh, I don't really want to get into it but what actually happened here is way worse. The people from the Emprise weren't being converted to red templars-- as far as I know the red templars were all actual former templars and that makes sense beacause they still had their years of military training-- the villagers were being taken to be converted straight-up to red lyrium. All that red stuff in the quarry? It's all people.


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#961
Tigrae

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That's not very nice thing to say.  They just need to find the right man/woman

 

tumblr_inline_nn3im3Fsbv1r0p9hv_500.jpg

 

Wingman Pete has a thankless job. We appreciate what you do, Wingman Pete. Is there an official "Wingman" day like "secretary day"? What should we get him? A day at the spa?


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#962
Arcanista

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I'm trying to remember who it was that brought up the idea that they're all united on the outside, but secretly working towards their own ends. Both Calpernia and Samson know that Corypheus' true goal is to sit on that throne - he's not beholden to either one of them. I mean, you can bring that up pretty plainly in dialogue with both of them (and convince Calpernia to fly free if you do her personal quest).

 

But I agree - the dark!Inquisition is made up of people who are all disenfranchised, as opposed to the Inquisition which was founded by devout Andrastians who really haven't had their faith shaken at all.

 

Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah, she said. No, I'd say they've had their faith deeply shaken but choose to retain it. Leliana is the big example here-- her pope wanted her to become a godless killing machine, after all. But Cassandra too, I think. You could extend it further but it's too late for me to think too hard.


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#963
Bugsie

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Definitely a spa day.

 

Massage and a facial.


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#964
Boost32

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Well, I think it's in question when exactly he left, is all-- I know that's more or less undefined, and I know it's not clear which one you're dealing with in the Val Royeaux encounter. That corpse in the locked room in Therinfal's been there for a while; that all could have happened easily before the swap, but it's hard to say. He certainly willfully placed Envy in command, and Envy did have the capacity to make decisions for itself, though. So I wouldn't necessarily write him/them off so easily. But I see what you're saying. Certainly the text could support either reading.

As far as justification-- no, I don't think Samson is justified in his actions. I'm not sure anyone's making that claim. I do think he tries to justify his actions to himself, and I do think that sometimes he successfully convinces himself, a little bit. Usually I think he fails to do that.

Like, the fact that I do think his actions came out of a place of fairly rational thought doesn't make them justified-- in a lot of ways it makes it worse, I find, because it means he can sit down, think it through, and still willfully choose to do what he does. It's kind of a fine point of distinction-- it is cruel, but he didn't do it to be cruel. A sin of ill action, rather than of ill intent.

But I mean I think we've got a pretty good understanding of each other at least, now, so yay! :)

Maybe justified in the wrong word, I think its the fact people can see why he is angry at the Chantry, thats where I disagree.

Barris says that only seasoned or high ranking templars can detect a rare demon like Envy, so to me thats why the Knight Vigilant was killed, because he would have detected Envy. Even if the explosion at the Conclave was a accident I dont believe Corypheus would have left anyone alive. Knight Vigliant, Knight Divines and several moderates Knight Commanders were there, only the corrupted ones werent send, to me they were sent there to die as a part of the plan to put Envy in power.

To Samson, giving them the red is giving them a fitting end, he was willing to go through the pain too, to die for and with them (and possibly he did die for them if you choose the Templar path) no one is excusing it as anything but monumental **** up. It was the one thing that the chantry couldn't or didn't give them (it's alluded that they can die without lyrium - and that's the regular blue stuff). Who abandoned those Templars at Kirkwall? Was it Samson? No. Who gave those in pain of withdrawal relief? Was it the Chantry? No. Look it's more complex than what I can put here. Whatever you say - he cared, whatever you say he is not a socio-path, canon and the writing, the actual words written says he cares (however warped you think it might be).

In regard to the Chantry, its destruction and reformation and in general 'spiritual' themes play a huge part of inquisition's narrative, who we choose as divine influences that outcome. It's complex and interwoven and not always done particularly well but its there. I can't, given what is given to me in the story lay the blame solely at Samson's feet any more than I lay the destruction of the elven pantheon on one god.

Monster, villain, 'the destruction of your beloved Templars' - if that's all you see, okay, but I think you're missing a much more interesting (and broader) story.

Fine I shall bite.
The only one who abandones the templars at Kirkwall as Cullen, the templars decided to leave the Chantry they werent left.
The templars had Lyrium supply, there was plenty of it at Therinfal, those at Kirkwall who drunk knew it was bad, they deserve what they got, and they started using it before The departure of Cullen.

He is a sociopath, look what he did at Therinfal and Emprise du Lion, no one same would have orchestraded those things and see it as something good. If he cared about his he wouldnt have turned them, there is no life being a red templar, you are turned into a beast with the purpose of serve a magister Darkspawn, the very thing they had sworn to destroy. He says he cares about them to make him feel good, to not face the truth that he is worse than Meredith and the Chantry.

I dont even care about the Chantry, I care about the Templar Order, and Samson is responsible to turning or trying to turn them into monsters.

#965
Giton

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Wingman Pete has a thankless job. We appreciate what you do, Wingman Pete. Is there an official "Wingman" day like "secretary day"? What should we get him? A day at the spa?

 

That's not very nice thing to say.  They just need to find the right man/woman

 

tumblr_inline_nn3im3Fsbv1r0p9hv_500.jpg

Wingman Pete, meet the Disciple:

 

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source: here


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#966
Tigrae

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Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah, she said. No, I'd say they've had their faith deeply shaken but choose to retain it. Leliana is the big example here-- her pope wanted her to become a godless killing machine, after all. But Cassandra too, I think. You could extend it further but it's too late for me to think too hard.

 

Oooo you're right! Cullen's faith has also been shaken, in the Order, maybe?


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#967
Arcanista

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Oooo you're right! Cullen's faith has also been shaken, in the Order, maybe?

 

Ooh, yeah, I always forget him-- but yeah, I think he makes it clear during that scene where he's praying, too.



#968
Tigrae

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#969
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#970
Sports72Xtrm

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Start giving him red Lyrium instead of blue Lyrium.
 
 
 
Again, equivocating the effects of red Lyrium to blue Lyrium.
 
 
 
Yes, gibbering mutants frothing at the mouth and sprouting crystals.
 
 
 
Delrin dies at Therinfal if the Inquisitor does not go there, as confirmed by the Keep.

Sounds like what the Grey Wardens do in their joining. For a templar I think you can only live with yourself in a couple of ways:

 Be a thoughtful soldiers doing what they believe is right.

  • Solas: The rest? Younger sons, petty criminals, thugs, bullies, orphans...
  • Solas: Either they are accustomed to a life without choices, to following even the worst orders...
  • Solas: Or they have learned to enjoy causing pain, to leap at any chance to swing a sword harder

 

Since the cruel Circle system makes the former impossible, and the latter makes templars monsters better off dead, what is a good man to do other than to look for any recourse other than to take the pain away?The Chantry left them no recourse.

 

I consider Delrin a decent man but I don't excuse him for procrastinating on not speaking up against the red lyrium. A litte picture of him fighting to the bitter end because he realized too late does not make him a better man. I honestly don't get how so many people see Delrin as this heroic figure speaking out against the Templar's corruption from the get go instead a lucky bastard who was saved and knew better after the fact.



#971
Tigrae

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#972
Tigrae

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Definitely a spa day.

 

Massage and a facial.

 

Definitely a pedicure for all the time they have to spend on their feet, marching.



#973
Arcanista

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Oooohkay Leliana


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#974
Tigrae

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Oooohkay Leliana

 


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#975
Hanako Ikezawa

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I will concede that he was negligent about Imshael. I don't think Samson would condone what he'd done had he known he was a demon. Samson from his perspective, is altruistic and not addicted to red lyium so he thought his men and the people would be in good hands. For all he knew, all they were ordered to do was to farm and procure a quarry, not enslave the people of that village.

There are notes in the mines with Samson condoning it among other things, like ordering increased production. He was not ignorant of what was happening there, he was in charge of it.