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The Samson thread: We are all Samsonsexual!


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#976
Hanako Ikezawa

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Eeh, I don't really want to get into it but what actually happened here is way worse. The people from the Emprise weren't being converted to red templars-- as far as I know the red templars were all actual former templars and that makes sense beacause they still had their years of military training-- the villagers were being taken to be converted straight-up to red lyrium. All that red stuff in the quarry? It's all people.

I always saw them becoming Red Lyrium as the final stage of the transformation. Goes from it being inside you like we see in the dark future with our companions, then growing out like Red Templars, then being almost nothing but Red Lyrium like Behemoths, to finally turning into pure Red Lyrium. 

 

Though yes, they were literally harvesting people like crops after they turned. 



#977
Bugsie

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 He says he cares about them to make him feel good, to not face the truth that he is worse than Meredith and the Chantry.
 

Awesome logic ya got there.  Worse than Meredith.  No.  Worse than the Chantry. oh ho ho ho ho.  Meredith was a monster before Red lyrium took hold.

 

It's funny how that aspect of Samson's personality and character arc is missing from Jo Berry's writing.

 

But what would Jo know about him?

 

Seriously, can't take you seriously now if that's your argument.  I took issue with your rant, now I take issue with your logic.  I can't possibly argue in good faith now.



#978
Arcanista

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I always saw them becoming Red Lyrium as the final stage of the transformation. Goes from it being inside you like we see in the dark future with our companions, then growing out like Red Templars, then being almost nothing but Red Lyrium like Behemoths, to finally turning into pure Red Lyrium. 

 

Though yes, they were literally harvesting people like crops after they turned. 

 

Yeah I mean it's not an instantaneous process, and resistance seems to vary-- Fiona's straight-up embedded, iirc-- but I don't think they're being harvested for manpower, so much as something to grow the stuff out of.



#979
Sports72Xtrm

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There are notes in the mines with Samson condoning it among other things, like ordering increased production. He was not ignorant of what was happening there, he was in charge of it. 

http://dragonage.wik..._Keep_Documents

According to this, Samson's only involvement with the Quarry was

 

Do we know anything about that Imshael fellow? Where did he come from? Why are we to defer to him? He's not from the Order, so far as I know, and there's something about him that makes me uneasy.

Hayden

Hayden,

Everyone makes you uneasy. Calm down. What I hear is: Imshael was sent to help oversee red lyrium growth in the quarry. He supports the cause, and that's all that matters.

Keep your nose down, do your job, and don't antagonize him.

Conall

Excerpt from the journal of a red templar:

Writing has become difficult. There is a sharp pain in my hands when I move them, like shards of glass in my knuckles. When I look in the mirror, I don't recognize myself. I remember when Lieutenant Erasmus got this way. He looked like a living corpse, his complexion a facsimile of the blush of life. Instead of blood, it was pulsing red lyrium. It killed him and kept him alive at the same time.

I don't want this anymore. It gave me power, but it goes against everything I was taught. Sometimes I am swept along with the fervor, but in quiet, I remember what I was, and what I believed.

Some say Imshael can cure us. He can pull the red lyrium from our bodies, if we ask him. But there's a price. No price would be too high. I just want to be myself again.

From the writings of Knight-Captain Fornier:

We arrived in the Highlands at night. I was immediately given the task of overseeing the acquisition and staffing of the Sahrnia quarry. I asked the general why we needed a quarry, if the crystals will grow anywhere. Apparently the Elder One believes the composition of the earth here will ensure that it grows more rapidly and abundantly. I didn't ask why he believes this. The general doesn't like questions. He probably doesn't know.

Some of my men feel we should take the quarry by force. The general did not specify how I was to secure the land, so I am considering a more subtle approach. Any suspicions we raise will increase the chance of a military investigation, perhaps even the newly formed Inquisition. We must operate in secret as long as possible.

I scouted the quarry yesterday. It is quiet. With the war raging, I expect demand for luxury granite has decreased significantly. A thought occurs to me: so much is gained through commerce. Why not exploit that?

Someone has made notes about the red lyrium in Emprise du Lion: I was in Kirkwall when Meredith died. She drew upon the red lyrium in her sword, and was consumed by it. Yet here we are, taking power from the lyrium and still alive. Fornier says in the early days, many were lost to the madness too quickly. We must use it enough so that it changes us, but not so much that it destroys us. He thinks Imshael is the key. He knows something about red lyrium; with his help, we can keep the corruption at bay longer.

He called himself a gardener. Is that how he sees it? He tends the red lyrium, keeping it well-fed and growing. Not too quickly, not too slowly.

My lord Imshael,

There is a soldier in Sahrnia who calls himself Michel. He arrived last night and has been asking about the keep, and you in particular. He told people you are a demon. Shall we have him retrieved?

Conall

Demon? What a frightful thing to call someone.

No. Leave Michel alone. He made his choice; I look forward to his attempts to follow through... although I suspect he'll trip on his good intentions and fall down a well inside a week.

Imshael

Samson's only condoning using the quarry's land to farm the red lyrium and having his men answer to Imshael. Nowhere is there any evidence explicitly condone kidnapping people and farming red lyrium from them. In fact, the only thing he does is take in the sick mage he encounters trading with red lyrium smugglers because he was sick already.



#980
Tigrae

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Ooh, yeah, I always forget him

 

#and I guess there's Cullen


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#981
BoscoBread

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#and I guess there's Cullen

I love this tag. It doesn't work though when talking about Kirkwall. Because...you know...he bailed.
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#982
Boost32

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Awesome logic ya got there.  Worse than Meredith.  No.  Worse than the Chantry. oh ho ho ho ho.  Meredith was a monster before Red lyrium took hold.
 
It's funny how that aspect of Samson's personality and character arc is missing from Jo Berry's writing.
 
But what would Jo know about him?
 
Seriously, can't take you seriously now if that's your argument.  I took issue with your rant, now I take issue with your logic.  I can't possibly argue in good faith now.

Meredith was a monster, but her death toll is sortear than Samson.
Thousands of templars lives destroyed at Therinfal, hundreds at Emprise du Lion and Emerald Graves, he is responsible for those death.

When she comes here and say he truly cares about them then you can use the "word of god" card, until then its all open to interpretation.

And I cant take you seriously too, so the feelings is reciprocal.

#983
Tigrae

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Meredith was a monster, but her death toll is sortear than Samson.
Thousands of templars lives destroyed at Therinfal, hundreds at Emprise du Lion and Emerald Graves, he is responsible for those death.

When she comes here and say he truly cares about them then you can use the "word of god" card, until then its all open to interpretation.

And I cant take you seriously too, so the feelings is reciprocal.

 

His motivations are in the short story from his writer. He believes he is helping the Templars, this isn't up to interpretation. This is not a debatable point: Samson cares about his Templars, be believes he's helping.

 

I understand it can be upsetting to think that someone could care so much they could destroy something - but we've seen it before. Meredith wanted to save Kirkwall, she cared so much about the common people that she squeezed and squeezed mages until the Gallows burst (and Grand Cleric Elthina did nothing).

 

Isn't it scary to think that someone could care so much that they could do more harm than good? That's an amazing villain. Not someone who hates everything, but someone who has so much empathy that they can't not help, and in helping, ruin everything and becomes the thing they despise. Like, how terrifying is that?

 

Please don't bring a body count into this thinking it'll prove one thing or another. It's grossly reductionist.

 

No one here is arguing that Samson is without blame - he f*cked up a lot of things. A. Lot. Of. Things. People in Haven are dead because of him and his Templars. People in Empris de Leon are dead. His hands aren't clean. We're all here appreciating the character, the facets of the character, the time that went into the character, the backstory, and picking him apart to see how he ticks.

 

If you're looking to pin the extinction of the Templar Order on him, it's not going to stick. Many, many things went into the Templars falling apart. Was he a part of it? Yes. Was the Circle Rebellion a part of it? Yes. Was Lord Seeker Lambert a part of it? Yes. Was Lord Seeker Lucius a part of it? Yes. Was Meredith a part of it? Yes. Was Corypheus a part of it? Yes.

 

The Templar Order is a moving machine, it doesn't have a single point of failure. It would be great to be able to point at one thing and say "you did this" so that it never happens again - but it can't. These organizations are too complex and too large for one simple point of failure. If that were true, then the Order would have fallen apart multiple times throughout its 900 year history. 

 

It's obvious through your previous posts that you don't agree with this assertion, so I'm not sure how much further you're expecting this discussion to go?


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#984
The Ascendant

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Just read the new short story about him. Wow. I always liked him as a character and now my respect for him as increased tremendously. 


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#985
Boost32

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Don't worry I'm not going to continue, I was answering a post directed to me, but I know it will not do any good if I continue so I'm stepping out of it.

#986
Tigrae

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I love this tag. It doesn't work though when talking about Kirkwall. Because...you know...he bailed.

 

Do you think Aveline like saw him walking away and was like, "that... motherf*ckr..."

 

Who just walks away in the middle of a city falling apart? What if you didn't kill Anders in that world-state and Sebastian and the Starkhaven army is pounding on the gates to occupy Kirkwall?

 

Like, Cullen, wtf did you do? He left to join the Inquisition because he was done with the Order, but just legitimately peaced-out of a city rebuilding itself, and the Templars were helping keep it together (with the city guard).


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#987
Sports72Xtrm

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What I found extraordinary is that Samson was able to master the red lyrium and not have it devour him. Is he just immune or did he become a seeker of something? there has to be something about him that makes him the exception. Or maybe all those days as a lyrium deprived hobo just made him better abled to handle even blighted lyrium.



#988
BoscoBread

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Do you think Aveline like saw him walking away and was like, "that... motherf*ckr..."

 

Who just walks away in the middle of a city falling apart? What if you didn't kill Anders in that world-state and Sebastian and the Starkhaven army is pounding on the gates to occupy Kirkwall?

 

Like, Cullen, wtf did you do? He left to join the Inquisition because he was done with the Order, but just legitimately peaced-out of a city rebuilding itself, and the Templars were helping keep it together (with the city guard).

The amount of positive feelings I have about him as our commander couldn't even fill a thimble.  Aveline should have been recruited but then again she would have refused to abandon her post.

 

What I found extraordinary is that Samson was able to master the red lyrium and not have it devour him. Is he just immune or did he become a seeker of something? there has to be something about him that makes him the exception. Or maybe all those days as a lyrium deprived hobo just made him better abled to handle even blighted lyrium.

He's naturally resistant to Lyrium and the blight...which is likely why he was chosen by Corypheus.   However that doesn't mean it won't catch up with him.  He tells you that it's killing him slowly.  Coryhpheus actually held it at bay.  When Samson gets captured Corypheus stopped doing that.  So he is dying. I'm not sure if that means he'll turn into a ghoul or just get sick and die. 



#989
Bugsie

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No, it really isn't open to interpretation and anyone (ie most people) who read paper and steel can see that.  He does care for his men.  Insulting the writer by ascribing your personal canon as truer than the written word is head shake worthy at best, insulting at worst.

 

tumblr_nno9qvuylc1r328o5o1_500.jpg

tumblr_nnoc7acPp51r328o5o1_540.jpg

Is he a villain.  Yes.

 

Does it excuse the crimes he commits. No (and no one here has ever said that)

 

He is quite possibly a monster (depending on whether you ascribe his moral agency being compromised due to addiction or not, and personally, I'm kind of on the fence on that one.)

 

He did things in war that were terrible (and please point out where you don't expect sacrifice from your own troops or even your companions)

 

You may not find him sympathetic, and that is perfectly fine, you may hate him for his betrayal to the order, that is also fine,

 

But he cares for his goddamn men.  Word of god. 



#990
The Baconer

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Sounds like what the Grey Wardens do in their joining. For a templar I think you can only live with yourself in a couple of ways:

 

Since the cruel Circle system makes the former impossible, and the latter makes templars monsters better off dead, what is a good man to do other than to look for any recourse other than to take the pain away?The Chantry left them no recourse.

 

Imbibing red Lyrium is not the path of a good man. 

 

I consider Delrin a decent man but I don't excuse him for procrastinating on not speaking up against the red lyrium. A litte picture of him fighting to the bitter end because he realized too late does not make him a better man. I honestly don't get how so many people see Delrin as this heroic figure speaking out against the Templar's corruption from the get go instead a lucky bastard who was saved and knew better after the fact.

 

All of that could be true, and he would still be better than the active purveyor of corruption that Samson is.



#991
AresKeith

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What I found extraordinary is that Samson was able to master the red lyrium and not have it devour him. Is he just immune or did he become a seeker of something? there has to be something about him that makes him the exception. Or maybe all those days as a lyrium deprived hobo just made him better abled to handle even blighted lyrium.


His armor helped him

#992
AresKeith

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Since the cruel Circle system makes the former impossible, and the latter makes templars monsters better off dead, what is a good man to do other than to look for any recourse other than to take the pain away?The Chantry left them no recourse.


The exaggeration I was talking about

#993
Tigrae

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We've got Samson’s full name thanks to World of Thedas:

Spoiler

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#994
Sports72Xtrm

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He's naturally resistant to Lyrium and the blight...which is likely why he was chosen by Corypheus.   However that doesn't mean it won't catch up with him.  He tells you that it's killing him slowly.  Coryhpheus actually held it at bay.  When Samson gets captured Corypheus stopped doing that.  So he is dying. I'm not sure if that means he'll turn into a ghoul or just get sick and die. 

I see. But he was able to command respect of other red templars and reason with his subordinate Wylan to stand down and not give in to the red lyrium. I wonder if they could master the red lyrium as he could or if it's a trait inherent in Samson. Maybe what Samson says is right. Or maybe he just says those things just so he can goad the Inquisitor to end him swiftly. The way the red templars listen to him seem to imply they still retain a level of reasoning. Or perhaps that's just wishful thinking.

 

 

The exaggeration I was talking about

Please stop responding to me. Your snide assertions does not contribute to constructive dialogue and I have no interest in talking to a wall so just drop it. I don't want to spam this thread.
 
 

Imbibing red Lyrium is not the path of a good man. 

 

 

All of that could be true, and he would still be better than the active purveyor of corruption that Samson is.

Agree to disagree. Fact is, Delrin and his own men doomed themselves because they were manipulated by a demon. So many blame their folly by saying they were tricked, but people like Delrin had their own nature used against them. If you excuse such a flaw I say your judgement is skewed. I respect Samson because he was able to control himself, not be controlled.


#995
SmilesJA

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Raliegh huh? Not the name I would've chosen, but okay sounds good to me.



#996
The Baconer

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Agree to disagree. Fact is, Delrin and his own men doomed themselves because they were manipulated by a demon. So many blame their folly by saying they were tricked, but people like Delrin had their own nature used against them. If you excuse such a flaw I say your judgement is skewed.

 

I don't excuse anything. It's my opinion that the Templars should not have followed Lucius to Therinfal in the first place, especially after the display in Val Royeaux.

 

I'm saying that, despite these flaws, he's still on a level above mass-murdering slavers like Samson.

 

 

I respect Samson because he was able to control himself, not be controlled.

 

This is objectively wrong. Samson is a willing pawn of a megalomaniac Darkspawn, strung along by his thirst for Lyrium and desire for vengeance.

 

Sure, he maintained his own sanity despite taking the red Lyrium... but that just means he was fully conscious as he committed atrocity after atrocity. If you find that respectable, I can only wonder what war criminals you'd find admirable in real life.



#997
BoscoBread

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<snip>

I...really wouldn't say that anythign Samson did after he met Corypheus was admirable.  It wasn't.  He did some bad things. 

 

At the kernel of what he was, he wanted to do right. He wanted to do good. He let that get twisted by his rage at the Chantry. Much like Anders was.  His rage while probably pretty justified given what he went through in his life doesn't make his actions with the Red Templars excusable.  Despite all this, I like Samson's character. He's a good "villain".  His background and what he turns into makes my heart hurt. I wish things had gone differently for him because you can see how much he cared.  That could have been utilized for actual good.

 

Ser Barris is young and has NONE of Samson's baggage.  It was probably really difficult though to stand up to his brothers/sisters. Like Samson he cared for them.  Fighting against them like he did was no easy task.  I don't really see it as weakness. I see it as understandble again.  He's ONE man against this entire massive institution.  The fact that - in the end - he stood up or if you don't recruit him he went out fighting...says a lot. 

 

I think you all are really too needy for these things to have easy answers and be black and white. A need for there to be a bad guy and a good guy. The thing is, things aren't black/white. And there isn't really a bad guy or a good guy.  It's complicated and messy and sometimes the bad guy is the good guy and vice versa.

 

At the end of the day, all we have is just people.  People making stupid, good, terrible decisions.  And then just living with the consequences.  That's all this is.  I find Samson to be a good person but still can think what he did was atrocious.  I also am capable of thinking Ser Barris while a bit weak willed is still a hero. 

 

That's what the entire game was about.   Are we more than our actions?  And that's for the player to decide. Clearly some of you say no - there is a line. At some point intent doesn't matter --- which is reasonable. For me, though, it does.  


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#998
Sable Rhapsody

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That's what the entire game was about.   Are we more than our actions?  And that's for the player to decide. Clearly some of you say no - there is a line. At some point intent doesn't matter --- which is reasonable. For me, though, it does.  

 

Arguably this is the case in DA2 as well.  I mean, if you only judged Hawke based on his/her actions, the character is a walking, talking disaster  :lol:


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#999
BoscoBread

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Arguably this is the case in DA2 as well.  I mean, if you only judged Hawke based on his/her actions, the character is a walking, talking disaster  :lol:

For Hawke

 

Spoiler

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#1000
AresKeith

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Arguably this is the case in DA2 as well.  I mean, if you only judged Hawke based on his/her actions, the character is a walking, talking disaster  :lol:

 

Now that you mention it....... :P