1268 réponses à ce sujet

[Bugsie]

Nah it's okay, no problem.  It's difficult to gather tone from text a lot of the time, I was pretty calm when I wrote that.  The feeling I had was one more of disappointment in the lack of acknowledgement that some things have been said to confirm his character and actions (like literally said in text and wiki). 

 

As you say there is a lot we don't yet know about either Calpernia and Samson and it is now being revealed to us.  There may be inconsistencies, plot holes too, especially the timelines, but when folk insist black is actually white despite evidence to the contrary ... yeah well that's pretty much the source of why I might have sounded angry!

[Pierce Miller]

People actually like Samson? This is that lyrium addled ex-templar who just so happened to betray his own people and work for Coreypheus right?

[ModernAcademic]

People actually like Samson? This is that lyrium addled ex-templar who just so happened to betray his own people and work for Coreypheus right?

 

Yep. He was in Kirkwall during the civil war after Meredith attacked the Champion. Cullen tried to contain the chaos, but was eventually overwhelmed and decided to head to Haven with Cassandra Pentaghast, leaving the templars in the city to their own devices.

 

Many templars made that choice after the Chantry blew up. They were scattered, leaderless, left behind with a lethal addiction and no one to help them cope with the pains of it. 

They were also being attacked and eliminated by rogue mages. So, with the absence of leadership and having their lives threatened daily, they gathered around Samson, who promised them they would not only survive, but build a new, better world by following a new God (Corypheus).

 

In Samson's own words, it was a false hope and he was fully aware of his crime. But remember, he had been expelled from the Order and received a punishment disproportionate to his crime (sending love letters from a mage to his sweetheart).

And because of this, he was left to die on the streets with no income, no job and no home to return to, living like a guttersnipe for more than six years.

 

If someone offered the world to you on a platter after you lived that daily hell, the chance to have your honor and dignity restored and a place in a New World Order, rather than be left to die in pain in the chaos that engulfed the world...wouldn't you take it?

[ModernAcademic]

I think I may have figured out why so many people hate Samson.

 

In Inquisition, Samson's face was redesigned to make him have 2 physical attributes:

 

1- A devilish look, with long, thin, peeked eyebrows (much like Spock, from Star Trek), heavily lidded eyes, a downturned nose and a constant smirk (that make him look cynical all the time).

2- An overall air of bad health, typical of a junkie. 

 

Based on the premise that people judge influenced heavily by appearance rather than true nature, I'd say the player is prone to hate him based on first impressions.

 

If we add to this the lack of vital information on his background in Inquisition, then you have players judging him as a degenerate, filthy templar who led the degradation of the "once noble and upstanding" Templar Order.

 

 

 

I REALLY find this odd because, in DA2, Samson is constantly complaining about people looking down on him and being insulted by being called a degenerate templar and an addict. He's offended to be considered a guttersnipe and strives very hard to be readmitted in the Order.

Which is why we come across him in Best Served Cold in Act 3. He's spent 6 years on the streets trying desperately to find a way to once more become a templar. He never once lost his pride and his willingness to serve.

 

And yet, "he's that filthy degenerate"...tough.

[The Baconer]

In my own experience, the hate started when he opened his mouth and rationalized what he did.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Based on the premise that people judge influenced heavily by appearance rather than true nature, I'd say the player is prone to hate him based on first impressions.

 

People actually like Samson? This is that lyrium addled ex-templar who just so happened to betray his own people and work for Coreypheus right?

 

Over the course of BioWare games, I have learned to like/befriend/recruit a genetically enhanced ex-terrorist, a straight-up possessed terrorist, murder robots, a few assassins, a cursed suit of armor, oodles of people who tried to kill me, and my half-brother/former nemesis whom I personally murdered.  Samson's fine    He's downright normal and rational compared to some older BioWare companions.

[Tigrae]

His look plays on our preconceived notions of what the media has told us a "junkie" is, and what they "deserve". It's understandable that he needed to look like the red lyrium was affecting him somehow, it's blighted, so he wouldn't look completely healthy (and he didn't look very healthy in DA2). But this is also part of character design: telling part of the story with their physical features. Cassandra looks sharp and hard, Varric looks warm and jovial, Vivienne looks controlled and tight, etc.

 

If Cullen looked more like he did in DA2, with the stress of his position and the events of Kinloch hold still haunting him, I'd daresay he wouldn't be quite as popular. He's got a cool scar, but where are the dark circles under his eyes from all his sleepless nights? Where is his weight gain/weight loss/sores/lesions from quitting lyrium? Where's his really curly hair?

 

I don't think we've ever been more aware that great antagonists have layers; their look is sort of the first one. Anyone interested enough can look past it to see the rest of their story.

[ModernAcademic]

In my own experience, the hate started when he opened his mouth and rationalized what he did.

 

Hm. Fair enough.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

In my own experience, the hate started when he opened his mouth and rationalized what he did.

 

Exactly. People don't hate him because of his looks or anything as simplistic as that, they hate him because he is a scumbag who supposedly cares about his people yet seem willing to turn them into red crystal monsters. 

[Tigrae]

More Samson in the Samson Thread:

 

 

 

[Source]

[ModernAcademic]

Exactly. People don't hate him because of his looks or anything as simplistic as that, they hate him because he is a scumbag who supposedly cares about his people yet seem willing to turn them into red crystal monsters. 

 

I'm trying to understand why did he do that. If it was because he truly saw no other possible ending for the templars abandoned by the Chantry than to be hunted down and killed by rogue mages or die from withdrawal (much like he was left by Meredith)...or if he accepted Corypheus' offer because he would have a steady supply of lyrium coming and prestige once again within the new Templar Order, under the Magister's leadership.

 

I tend to think it was a bit of both. After all, he DID have first hand experience with expulsion from the Order and withdrawal. He knew those templars wouldn't have it easy, now that the Chantry was destroyed as an institution. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Exactly. People don't hate him because of his looks or anything as simplistic as that, they hate him because he is a scumbag who supposedly cares about his people yet seem willing to turn them into red crystal monsters. 

 

The Illusive Man doesn't get nearly as much hate, and the things he does are IMO worse.  Sarevok from BG2 murders your foster father, spends the whole game trying to kill you, and sows political instability and death along the Sword Coast because he wants to become the Lord of Murder.  And you can recruit and even redeem Sarevok later on in the series.  

 

IMO it's less about looks and more about overall presentation of the character.  TIM was an ally for a whole game.  Sarevok is a recruitable party member, and arguably one of your few surviving family members.  Contrast this to Samson, who has a minor role in DA2 and is only ever an antagonist in DA:I.  Or even Calpernia; while she's also an antagonist, her quests paint her with a much more sympathetic brush from the get-go with the slavers' letters, and you can convince her to even take up arms against Corypheus.  Much easier to sympathize with a character like that.

[Tigrae]

I'm trying to understand why did he do that. If it was because he truly saw no other possible ending for the templars abandoned by the Chantry than to be hunted down and killed by rogue mages or die from withdrawal (much like he was left by Meredith)...or if he accepted Corypheus' offer because he would have a steady supply of lyrium coming and prestige once again within the new Templar Order, under the Magister's leadership.

 

I tend to think it was a bit of both. After all, he DID have first hand experience with expulsion from the Order and withdrawal. He knew those templars wouldn't have it easy, now that the Chantry was destroyed as an institution. 

 

His compassion doomed them all. The Chantry bound them to lyrium, and when the Order left the Chantry - they left the only supplier of lyrium behind. What do they do now? Rot? He saw all of these people he cared about, an Order he cared about, being abandoned like he was (as he states in his judgement), and he took up a righteous cause on their behalf. He knew exactly what it would feel like to go through withdrawal, and he only had to find dust for one person. These other templars had no idea what it'd be like, and I assume this is the case because if they had I don't think they'd be as quick to cut ties with the Chantry.

 

Corypheus walks up to him with one hand holding a sword for Samson to use against the Chantry, and one hand holding a vial of red lyrium that will sate their need for the stuff AND give them even more power to use against the Chantry - and he took both.

 

Samson knew full well that the lyrium would kill them, and that they wouldn't survive ("I fed them hope instead of dispair") - but he saw no other options.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The Illusive Man doesn't get nearly as much hate, and the things he does are IMO worse.  Sarevok from BG2 murders your foster father, spends the whole game trying to kill you, and sows political instability and death along the Sword Coast because he wants to become the Lord of Murder.  And you can recruit and even redeem Sarevok later on in the series.  

 

IMO it's less about looks and more about overall presentation of the character.  TIM was an ally for a whole game.  Sarevok is a recruitable party member, and arguably one of your few surviving family members.  Contrast this to Samson, who has a minor role in DA2 and is only ever an antagonist in DA:I.  Or even Calpernia; while she's also an antagonist, her quests paint her with a much more sympathetic brush from the get-go with the slavers' letters, and you can convince her to even take up arms against Corypheus.  Much easier to sympathize with a character like that.

 

The difference is that TIM and Calpernia have vision. TIM wants to promote humanity and Calpernia wants to restore Tevinter. Samson is just a sad and bitter little creature lashing out at the world.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The difference is that TIM and Calpernia have vision. TIM wants to promote humanity and Calpernia wants to restore Tevinter. Samson is just a sad and bitter little creature lashing out at the world.

 

So are Aribeth from NWN after her fall, Viconia from Baldur's Gate, Jack in ME2, arguably Saren in ME1...the list of bitter, angry characters who can be redeemed with player compassion goes on and on.  We'll never know if quizzy could have done the same for Samson, because the narrative never really gave us that choice.  It's easier to see the sympathetic qualities in someone that the player can convince or recruit, for lack of a better way of putting it.  Harder to see them in someone like Samson, who is always on the opposing side no matter what the player does.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

So are Aribeth from NWN after her fall, Viconia from Baldur's Gate, Jack in ME2, arguably Saren in ME1...the list of bitter, angry characters who can be redeemed with player compassion goes on and on.  We'll never know if quizzy could have done the same for Samson, because the narrative never really gave us that choice.  It's easier to see the sympathetic qualities in someone that the player can convince or recruit, for lack of a better way of putting it.  Harder to see them in someone like Samson, who is always on the opposing side no matter what the player does.

 

Never played NWN/BG so I can't answer those. Jack is not a villain and even then I think she's a **** character and I always make sure she dies on the suicide mission. While Saren does have moments of rage, I would not describe him as a villain whose motivations was driven by anger and biterness. He's closer to Calpernia than Samson.

[SmilesJA]

People actually like Samson? This is that lyrium addled ex-templar who just so happened to betray his own people and work for Coreypheus right?

 

Betray? He wanted to save his people and give him a purpose?

[ModernAcademic]

The difference is that TIM and Calpernia have vision. TIM wants to promote humanity and Calpernia wants to restore Tevinter. Samson is just a sad and bitter little creature lashing out at the world.

 

No wonder he got so much hate. I think the devs could have given him a stronger purpose rather than just seek revenge from the Chantry.

Us against the world isn't entirely convincing...not for one of the main antagonists, anyway.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

No wonder he got so much hate. I think the devs could have given him a stronger purpose rather than just seek revenge from the Chantry.

Us against the world isn't entirely convincing...not for one of the main antagonists, anyway.

 

Would be better then to simply have a whole new villain as Corypheus' second-in-command on the mage path then. Samson having some sort of grand vision would seem out of place for his character.

[Bugsie]

I see part of his behaviour in this light, in his own mind he justifies the unjustifiable.  It's like someone who embezzles 300K from the company they work for likening it to stealing a few pens from the stationary cupboard to take home to their kids.  In their minds it's okay- for whatever reasons (ie The company has lots of money!!)  they layer it with excuses that are totally at odds with what the rest of us think.

 

He thought he was doing his men a good deed knowing what it would do to them, knowing what it would do to him.  A fool by any other name?

 

The difference is that TIM and Calpernia have vision. TIM wants to promote humanity and Calpernia wants to restore Tevinter. Samson is just a sad and bitter little creature lashing out at the world.

Probably, but he wanted to bring his men one last chance to die standing, he had limited vision, bought on what he thought he could deliver.  Larger Vision is all well and good but it can be a totally overused trope for a character, especially when executed poorly and TIM was a joke by the end of ME3, his 'vision' went nowhere and the resolution of his character arc one of the worst I've seen in a game (so much potential turned into Saren mark 2). As far as Calpernia is concerned, yes she has shown us she wants more, but until they deliver us with the outcome of that vision, its superficial at best, and remember, she can be dead or never seen (if you chose the mages) so I really don't see a bigger scope for her vision beyond a cameo in the next game (unfortunately as I could see her playing a bigger role, but alas)

[BoscoBread]

No wonder he got so much hate. I think the devs could have given him a stronger purpose rather than just seek revenge from the Chantry.

Us against the world isn't entirely convincing...not for one of the main antagonists, anyway.

That's sort of the point though.  The chantry does deserve his ire.  A lot of people's actually.  What he did though was let that rage totally consume and cloud his judgment.  With actual friends and maybe just a tempered anger, he could have done actual good. The Chantry and the order NEEDS to be reformed.  His passion for this and his compassion for people could have been turned to good.  I feel like I've repeated this 1000x but that is his tragedy.  

 

Again, NOTHING, he did was forgivable.  Merely understandable.  I thought the devs did a great job in highlighting that in game and through the supplemental stories.  

[Bugsie]

I can't find the post asking about his faith... not enough caffeine in the system yet.

 

But I headcanon that Samson still has belief in the Maker, and Andraste, (all could be disproved of course he may have turned away from his faith altogether) but he hates the Chantry so much I think it clouds his judgement and is definitely a huge part of his motivation for his actions.  Part of the reason I think he still has his faith is because by the end of it, he has nothing else.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Us against the world isn't entirely convincing...not for one of the main antagonists, anyway.

 

And yet it seems to be more accepted (if not entirely so) in protagonists and allies (Zaeed, Jack, Sarevok, etc.)  There winds up being a lot of PC-centered morality in terms of who people find sympathetic.  If it's someone you can recruit, convince, or otherwise pull to the PC's side, their sympathetic traits become more apparent, and their problematic qualities more understandable.  You also (typically) get to spend more time with them and know them better.

 

Part of it is implementation too, TBH.  I feel like I had a much better sense of who Calpernia was from just the game.  Despite being in DA2 and DA:I, it took me a lot longer to get a grasp on Samson's character, and I don't think his quest chain was as well written as hers.

[Tigrae]

I can't find the post asking about his faith... not enough caffeine in the system yet.

 

But I headcanon that Samson still has belief in the Maker, and Andraste, (all could be disproved of course he may have turned away from his faith altogether) but he hates the Chantry so much I think it clouds his judgement and is definitely a huge part of his motivation for his actions.  Part of the reason I think he still has his faith is because by the end of it, he has nothing else.

 

It's in Paper & Steel - and is basically your headcanon: no faith in the Chantry but belief in the Maker.

 

It was my post, I replaced it with his 3D models once I got the info from Kissiebear ahahha

[Bugsie]

Oh doh, I've read it twice, obviously too quickly and with total lack of reading comprehension considering I picked up stuff second time around.

Cool.