Just watched the Cullen ending of Trespasser. If he is still addicted to lyrium, his future is quite a revelation:
Do you know who does he resemble in that last slide?
Samson.
The very templar the fanbase despises and uses an an example of the opposite kind of man that (they believe) Cullen is.
Looks like they weren't so different afterall.
We've reached 50 pages!
We've reached 50 pages!
Already? Hooray! A toast to the Samson fans!
Where are the fireworks? Where's Dworkin when you need him?
Just watched the Cullen ending of Trespasser. If he is still addicted to lyrium, his future is quite a revelation:
Spoiler
Do you know who does he resemble in that last slide?
Samson.
The very templar the fanbase despises and uses an an example of the opposite kind of man that (they believe) Cullen is.
Yeah, I've talked about this a little on Tumblr.
It's disappointing to see the theme of addiction used to evoke pity for Cullen but used as a reason to portray Samson as broken or weak. Granted, both men get to this point in different ways (Samson had no choice, Cullen lost his purpose and support) but the theme still stands. Cullen even reprimands Samson for his addiction after his judgement, knowing full well that he's just as addicted (although I see this as Cullen projecting his own fears onto Samson).
The outpouring of sympathy that I've seen in the fandom over homeless beggar Cullen (including LI's finding him and "fixing" him with their love) compared to the amount of sympathy a canonically homeless beggar Samson in DA2 is also disappointing.
Well to be fair I don't think Cullen ever did half of the atrocious things Samson did.
When we meet homeless beggar Samson in DA2 he hasn't done what Cullen's done by the time he becomes homeless at the end of Trespasser (overlooking abuses at in the Gallows), though. There's no fan art of Hawke "saving" Samson from the street in DA2, no fic of Hawke or an OC helping Samson. Although Samson does turn down Hawke's help in-game, there's still little to no content showing any kind of sympathy for DA2 Samson's situation.
Granted, we "know" Cullen more as players, I'm still disappointed that addiction used as a character flaw for Samson in DAI, but used as a tool to evoke guilt or remorse from the players for Cullen. Addiction is an equal tragedy for both of them, it ruins both of their lives as it does every templar, but its only portrayed as a horrible thing for Cullen.
The outpouring of sympathy that I've seen in the fandom over homeless beggar Cullen (including LI's finding him and "fixing" him with their love) compared to the amount of sympathy a canonically homeless beggar Samson is also disappointing.
THIS
The fanbase just doesn't see Samson as the decent, dutiful templar that he once was, and that people associate with Cullen. All they see is the beggar in Lowtown.
They don't understand Samson wasn't born with an addiction. His morals only loosened as a result of working so many years as a templar and being force fed lyrium.
His fate is that of many other templars. Victims of an addiction that will inevitably consume them all and leave nothing behind but an empty shell. And I'm satisfied that Bioware showed this truth through the figure of Cullen. Some people simply don't understand how an addiction destroys a man.
Samson is but one of many templars who began their career as exemplary men and over the years became husks, with their minds lost to the lyrium. Glad those last slides were an eye opener. Maybe people will be more understanding now.
Yeah, I've talked about this a little on Tumblr.
It's disappointing to see the theme of addiction used to evoke pity for Cullen but used as a reason to portray Samson as broken or weak. Granted, both men get to this point in different ways (Samson had no choice, Cullen lost his purpose and support) but the theme still stands. Cullen even reprimands Samson for his addiction after his judgement, knowing full well that he's just as addicted (although I see this as Cullen projecting his own fears onto Samson).
The outpouring of sympathy that I've seen in the fandom over homeless beggar Cullen (including LI's finding him and "fixing" him with their love) compared to the amount of sympathy a canonically homeless beggar Samson is also disappointing.
But don't forget, addiction doesn't affect everyone in the same way. It is unique to each individual. Samson's addiction to lyrium hardly came into it for me in terms of story. I didn't think he was portrayed as weak. It was all rage at how the chantry treats templars.
Not saying you or others here are doing this, but drawing parallels between Samson and Cullen never make much sense to me either. Both have completely different lives and experiences which also add up to how people cope - or not - with the issue of substance abuse. To try and compare how Cullen and Samson deal with it (or not) is apples and oranges.
It is not just an outpouring from fans fixing Cullen with their love either although that's a common canon. Plenty of gamers who didn't romance Cullen went for the non-lyrium option, not wishing to see their Commander suffer that fate and were genuinely upset for him when those slides popped up. It is truly horrific to see how a man who was leading your armies - and who has already survived so much and come through the other side - goes from that to begging on the streets, his mind gone. My OH, who is completely ambivalent to Cullen, thought it was the harshest ending he'd ever seen.
I thought Bioware demonstrated all the different outcomes exceptionally well for both men, even though they are limited in what they can do.
And, Cullen = good guy (to most), Samson = bad guy. Many people will take the line that he deserves everything he gets, rightly or wrongly. There are many different choices Samson could have made in his life - sadly, his addiction took him down that path (although I have my doubts on the plausibility). Cullen acknowledges the same too at the end of Before the Dawn in relation to himself - not sure if you get that if he stays on lyrium though. That's a playthrough I can never bring myself to do.
I think it's also very brave of BioWare to tackle unpopular subjects such as drug abuse and mental health - in this they certainly look at both through these two.
Although I have never liked him, Samson's whole storyline in DAI did confuse me and I'm not sure it was fair to him. It is too much of a leap for me from DA2 to the atrocities he commits in DAI. Just to blame it on lyrium addiction and loathing of the Chantry to suddenly agreeing to what is close to to genoicide through red lyrium farming and all the rest of what being Corypheus' general entails leaves me 
. The fact too that he once was dutiful and then to go to this? Cullen's comment on why Samson who is past his glory days is also interesting. None of it added up as a plausible story. If that makes sense. I felt sorry for Samson simply because nothing about his plotline came together coherently!
I am fairly sure that most of us understands that addiction is different for everyone, I'll take that as you painting most of us here as naive, your comment is well meant but a little insulting. But the narrative definitely tries to paint Samson as weak (and in DA2 as a coward.) You only have to see some of the more colorful expressions about Samson from certain people in this very thread to see how it worked.
I don't think anyone is directly comparing Cullen and Samson, The parallels that are being drawn is to how they are viewed after experiencing the same fate (that of begging on the street) Samson is loathed for what Cullen is pitied for. It's understandable given that yes, Cullen is the 'good guy' and Samson is the 'bad guy' but it speaks to me of how little compassion people have for others who aren't the 'right kind of addict' - its a very notion the Victorians tried to paint with their attitude towards the poor - there were the 'deserving poor' and those who weren't the 'right kind of poor' - it lacks the grace of true empathy. True empathy does not have conditions attached.
For me, who is currently doing Cullen's romance there are parts of Cullen’s story I feel are glossed over to make him palatable as a LI, and as a mage in this pt I think they missed an opportunity to focus on a true redemptive arc for him, they handled some aspects well but there is a little too much focus on his manpain at the expense of my player agency in parts (IMO). If there had been some great make or break moments, like there had been for some of the other romances it could have certainly lifted it into the awesome category for me instead of the feeling I currently have which is along the lines of 'oh this is really nice' . It was a last minute insertion into the game – and you can see it, if you look beyond the fluff. I think they did well with what they could, that's obvious purely for the popularity of his romance I guess. However, I would have liked a little more thought put into it and without leaving me feeling that I couldn't respond to things I disagreed with.
I'm confused by your last paragraph, in your first you state no path for addiction is the same, yet here you seem to be suggesting the opposite, that his path as an addict should have been what? The same as Cullen's if he stays on lyrium? That because he remained an addict he should have also remained a Kirkwall beggar? Different people, different circumstances, different outcomes.
It's disappointing to see the theme of addiction used to evoke pity for Cullen but used as a reason to portray Samson as broken or weak. Granted, both men get to this point in different ways (Samson had no choice, Cullen lost his purpose and support) but the theme still stands. Cullen even reprimands Samson for his addiction after his judgement, knowing full well that he's just as addicted (although I see this as Cullen projecting his own fears onto Samson).
No he doesn't. Cullen says he actually might have been one of the Reds had his own life gone differently. What he reprimands Samson for is consigning his own brothers in arms to fates worse than death, and then trying to maintain some moral high-horse after all was said and done.
Poisoning your comrades and enslaving people. That's what makes you the bad guy. That's what makes you unsympathetic.
You do not understand! He clearly did those things because he really cared for them!No he doesn't. Cullen says he actually might have been one of the Reds had his own life gone differently. What he reprimands Samson for is consigning his own brothers in arms to fates worse than death, and then trying to maintain some moral high-horse after all was said and done.
Poisoning your comrades and enslaving people. That's what makes you the bad guy. That's what makes you unsympathetic.
But don't forget, addiction doesn't affect everyone in the same way. It is unique to each individual. Samson's addiction to lyrium hardly came into it for me in terms of story. I didn't think he was portrayed as weak. It was all rage at how the chantry treats templars.
I haven't drawn any comparisons between the two men and their addictions, at any point. I've written about how Cullen and Samson differ in their recoveries based on the resources they were given and their personality traits.
What I highlighted was the lack of sympathy in the fandom for a canonically homeless and addicted Samson in DA2 in comparison to the hypothetically homeless and addicted Cullen at the end of Trespasser. I specifically said Samson in DA2 in each of my posts.
One addict is overlooked by the fandom during the darkest part of his addiction (Samson in DA2), while the other is "saved" in fics and in art during his (Cullen) and that's a shame.
Last week I wrote up a little story imagining Raleigh Samson's father telling a story about how he met Raleigh's mother. I was lucky enough to inspire Tumblr artist art-by-g to draw a young Raleigh, and draw young Raleigh and his mom Deidre:
[source]
[source]
Although I have never liked him, Samson's whole storyline in DAI did confuse me and I'm not sure it was fair to him. It is too much of a leap for me from DA2 to the atrocities he commits in DAI. Just to blame it on lyrium addiction and loathing of the Chantry to suddenly agreeing to what is close to to genoicide through red lyrium farming and all the rest of what being Corypheus' general entails leaves me
I really liked the short story for Samson, and I feel like it was a much more coherent portrayal than what we get in-game.
I like the character. I think he's interesting. But now that I'm actually playing his questline with Adaar (I did Calpernia's with Lavellan), it just doesn't grab me the way Calpernia's story did. I've played DA2 and read the short story, but based on what little we get in DA:I, I wouldn't have a very good idea of who this guy is. It's just not as well done, and I honestly think that's a lot of why Samson gets less sympathy.
I am fairly sure that most of us understands that addiction is different for everyone, I'll take that as you painting most of us here as naive, your comment is well meant but a little insulting. But the narrative definitely tries to paint Samson as weak (and in DA2 as a coward.) You only have to see some of the more colorful expressions about Samson from certain people in this very thread to see how it worked.
I don't think anyone is directly comparing Cullen and Samson, The parallels that are being drawn is to how they are viewed after experiencing the same fate (that of begging on the street) Samson is loathed for what Cullen is pitied for. It's understandable given that yes, Cullen is the 'good guy' and Samson is the 'bad guy' but it speaks to me of how little compassion people have for others who aren't the 'right kind of addict' - its a very notion the Victorians tried to paint with their attitude towards the poor - there were the 'deserving poor' and those who weren't the 'right kind of poor' - it lacks the grace of true empathy. True empathy does not have conditions attached.
For me, who is currently doing Cullen's romance there are parts of Cullen’s story I feel are glossed over to make him palatable as a LI, and as a mage in this pt I think they missed an opportunity to focus on a true redemptive arc for him, they handled some aspects well but there is a little too much focus on his manpain at the expense of my player agency in parts (IMO). If there had been some great make or break moments, like there had been for some of the other romances it could have certainly lifted it into the awesome category for me instead of the feeling I currently have which is along the lines of 'oh this is really nice' . It was a last minute insertion into the game – and you can see it, if you look beyond the fluff. I think they did well with what they could, that's obvious purely for the popularity of his romance I guess. However, I would have liked a little more thought put into it and without leaving me feeling that I couldn't respond to things I disagreed with.
I'm confused by your last paragraph, in your first you state no path for addiction is the same, yet here you seem to be suggesting the opposite, that his path as an addict should have been what? The same as Cullen's if he stays on lyrium? That because he remained an addict he should have also remained a Kirkwall beggar? Different people, different circumstances, different outcomes.
Apologies, it was not meant to be insulting, just a feeling I got reading the thread that people are comparing the two. It's a very personal subject to me and some of this threads contents I found upsetting. What I meant to do, and clearly failed, was reiterate that no two people will go through the same - but I used rather too many words to get there. Next time I shall step away.
I completely agree with your comments on Cullen's romance. It was wonderful but there was a depth to it that was lacking. As you say, lack of development time/money I guess. The combination of trauma and addiction is a potent one and I think that could have been handled a bit better.
My last paragraph was intended to mean that Samson's personal addiction almost didn't come into it (from what I saw) - and that in DA:I it was mainly about him wanting to give Templars some type of alternative. There was also a lot of focus on his hate for the Chantry. From what I remember, Cullen mentions Samson is a lyrium addict when the whole questline first opens up and then that's it till the judgement I believe.
Certainly, Samson would have stayed as a beggar on the streets of Kirkwall if not for Corypheus, that is true. What I don't understand is why Samson above everyone else. The whole storyline, to me anyway, is not plausible and there wasn't enough explanation as to Samson's sudden rise to power. I'm not sure that is fair to him as a character. But that's just my opinion.
I didn't want to go into the ending slide for Cullen on a Samson thread either - but, for me that is the most unrealistic outcome of the lot. Not because of the tragic descent into addiction which would be inevitable, but because of the actions, or lack of, from the people around him. I don't think the two of them would have ended up in the same situation at all. There's either some warped parallel being drawn by having Cullen in the same position as what would have happened to Samson, or it was just lazy writing/lack of time.
As it stands, they wouldn't have had too dissimilar deaths in either scenario - just that Samson would be in a dungeon instead of the streets?
I haven't drawn any comparisons between the two men and their addictions, at any point. I've written about how Cullen and Samson differ in their recoveries based on the resources they were given and their personality traits.
What I highlighted was the lack of sympathy in the fandom for a canonically homeless and addicted Samson in DA2 in comparison to the hypothetically homeless and addicted Cullen at the end of Trespasser. I specifically said Samson in DA2 in each of my posts.
One addict is overlooked by the fandom during the darkest part of his addiction (Samson in DA2), while the other is "saved" in fics and in art during his (Cullen) and that's a shame.
Sorry, my post was obviously badly written. I thought I'd mentioned that I didn't mean to single out one person or another on the thread. I didn't mean to highlight you personally and I agree with what you've said.
I have no idea if it was deliberate or by accident but I think it's quite a 'good' parallel for BioWare to have drawn. The scenarios they have created with Samson and Cullen ie some more popular than others, are ones that play out in real life every day which is hugely sad.
You do not understand! He clearly did those things because he really cared for them!
How cant you see he only transformed them into monster who will only feel a uninmaginable pain and anger because it would be better for them!
And those people who he transformed into red lyrium veins? They should thanks him for what he did.
Probably unrelated but i always like fighting samson in multiplayer my favorite boss to fight. Also i feel bad 'cause i encouraged Cullen to take lyrium, and i thought i was helping...
Also i feel bad 'cause i encouraged Cullen to take lyrium, and i thought i was helping...
To be fair, if you think about the scenario from the point of view of your Inquisitor, it's not a bad decision.
As far as Thedas knows, Templars die or go mad when they stop taking lyrium (and this is true. Two templars die going off of lyrium in Last Flight), so to have the leader of the Inquisitor's army telling them that he's gone off of lyrium in the middle of trying to stop the world from ending, it would't be strange to tell him "lets do this at a better time. You can do this, just not right now."
Sure, you can feel bad because of the ultimate outcome, but it's not a bad decision to make if you keep the POV of the game in mind.
What I don't understand is why Samson above everyone else. The whole storyline, to me anyway, is not plausible and there wasn't enough explanation as to Samson's sudden rise to power. I'm not sure that is fair to him as a character. But that's just my opinion.
You might find some clarity in his short story Paper & Steel. It goes into the events of how he came to be recruited by Corypheus. It's a mixture of his natural resistance to lyrium, to the Blight, and he had motivations that Corypheus could exploit: his rage at the Chantry's treatment of Templars, his fear of dying in the streets, his twisted compassion for the plight of Templars across Thedas, and his natural leadership skills (WOT2).
Sorry, my post was obviously badly written. I thought I'd mentioned that I didn't mean to single out one person or another on the thread. I didn't mean to highlight you personally and I agree with what you've said.
I have no idea if it was deliberate or by accident but I think it's quite a 'good' parallel for BioWare to have drawn. The scenarios they have created with Samson and Cullen ie some more popular than others, are ones that play out in real life every day which is hugely sad.
No worries! I'm not offended, I just wanted to make my point as clear as possible, and lament both the way addicts are portrayed in this game and how they're received by the fandom. It's a topic that means a lot to me, and I've written about ad nauseam in this thread, so I don't want to rehash what I've already said.
There's no excuse for Samson's actions in the game, no one here has offered excuses for what he's done. All we've done is offer explanations and motivations for why he does what he does.
boost is a notorious troll. Ignore him
I think Samson was chosen to be one of the bid baddies simply for plot reasons. Like mrslycx said, his transformation from beggar to leader of a red lyrium army makes no sense. Especially for those players who redeemed Samson in Best Served Cold and saw him fighting by Hawke's side against Meredith.
He would never want to have anything to do with her. She ruined his life. So seeing him wield her sword, Certainty, and following in her footsteps by taking the red willingly was bizarre.
I think Samson was chosen to be one of the bid baddies simply for plot reasons. Like mrslycx said, his transformation from beggar to leader of a red lyrium army makes no sense. Especially for those players who redeemed Samson in Best Served Cold and saw him fighting by Hawke's side against Meredith.
He would never want to have anything to do with her. She ruined his life. So seeing him wield her sword, Certainty, and following in her footsteps by taking the red willingly was bizarre.
I wonder, would samson and Cullen be in their same situations had they been in different places. Would we have commander Samson if he was in Ferelden and red lyrium Cullen if he was Kirkwall?
I should probably say up front that I'm not a big fan of the role-reversal of Samson and Cullen, and usually because it's not explained well enough to make the reversal fit their characters, to me.
If we go back far enough, like you've hypothesized, I'm not sure how much of their original characters we're left with? Being at Kinloch Hold is an event that makes Cullen who he is as a person. Being caught with Maddox's letters, being kicked out of the Templars, is an event that makes Samson who he is as a person. I don't know that Samson would have survived Kinloch Hold like Cullen did. Cullen did because he is a very determined person, Samson is a compassionate person. I don't know how long Cullen could have lasted in Kirkwall under Meredith. Would he have submitted to her will at all if he hadn't experienced what he had at Kinloch Hold? He believed in her methods because he'd seen with unchecked magic could do and it terrified him.
Samson works as the Red General because his fears can be exploited. Samson isn't afraid of mages, so he's not afraid of working for Corypheus or working with Calpernia. Samson's compassion and pain and hurt can be twisted to Corypheus' own ends. Corypheus can take Samson's anger over how Templars are treated and use it to build an army with. What would Corypheus use as a legitimate motivator for someone like Cullen in an effort to remake the world?
Cullen works as the Commander of the Inquisition because he wants to fix things. He wants to put things right. He wants as far away from the Order as he can be. I think the Cullen we meet in DAI is starting to come to terms with what he participated in, and starting his road to redemption. While the Templar order pulls away from the Chantry, they have Kirkwall's then knight-commander joining their forces. It's a huge show of good faith on behalf of the Chantry. What could the Chantry offer Samson? He doesn't (potentially) re-join the Templars at the end of DA2 because he believes in the cause. He wants his lyrium, he wants to struggle less in his life.
No he doesn't. Cullen says he actually might have been one of the Reds had his own life gone differently. What he reprimands Samson for is consigning his own brothers in arms to fates worse than death, and then trying to maintain some moral high-horse after all was said and done.
Poisoning your comrades and enslaving people. That's what makes you the bad guy. That's what makes you unsympathetic.
Well a villain without motivation and carrying their own idea of what is moral or not (however warped it might be) is what makes them compelling. But yes I think any sympathy for Samson is easily lost in his post Kirkwall persona and deeds. It's difficult to separate his DA2 character and the character we see in Inquisition. (ie Inquisition is a confounding factor in any sympathy that people might have had for a DA2 Samson.) But we are talking about DA2 Samson in this instance.
I completely agree with your comments on Cullen's romance. It was wonderful but there was a depth to it that was lacking. As you say, lack of development time/money I guess. The combination of trauma and addiction is a potent one and I think that could have been handled a bit better.
My last paragraph was intended to mean that Samson's personal addiction almost didn't come into it (from what I saw) - and that in DA:I it was mainly about him wanting to give Templars some type of alternative. There was also a lot of focus on his hate for the Chantry. From what I remember, Cullen mentions Samson is a lyrium addict when the whole questline first opens up and then that's it till the judgement I believe.
Certainly, Samson would have stayed as a beggar on the streets of Kirkwall if not for Corypheus, that is true. What I don't understand is why Samson above everyone else. The whole storyline, to me anyway, is not plausible and there wasn't enough explanation as to Samson's sudden rise to power. I'm not sure that is fair to him as a character. But that's just my opinion.
I didn't want to go into the ending slide for Cullen on a Samson thread either - but, for me that is the most unrealistic outcome of the lot. Not because of the tragic descent into addiction which would be inevitable, but because of the actions, or lack of, from the people around him. I don't think the two of them would have ended up in the same situation at all. There's either some warped parallel being drawn by having Cullen in the same position as what would have happened to Samson, or it was just lazy writing/lack of time.
As it stands, they wouldn't have had too dissimilar deaths in either scenario - just that Samson would be in a dungeon instead of the streets?
Sorry, my post was obviously badly written. I thought I'd mentioned that I didn't mean to single out one person or another on the thread. I didn't mean to highlight you personally and I agree with what you've said.
I have no idea if it was deliberate or by accident but I think it's quite a 'good' parallel for BioWare to have drawn. The scenarios they have created with Samson and Cullen ie some more popular than others, are ones that play out in real life every day which is hugely sad.
No problems, it was more a general that the people who are regulars here understand the nature of addiction and how it's different for different people, it felt a bit like being lectured on something that we have had in discussion earlier in this thread (and some of us are familiar with in our real lives).
I guess I would say in answer to your 'why Samson' would be 'why not Samson'? I mean, we have little background on most of the Templars in DA2, the writers just picked him in this instance. They had to choose someone to flesh out and as superdarkone says, there was a codex entry (scrubbed from the game) where Samson is seen talking to the grey warden from Legacy - either Janeka or Larius but it didn't play into the timeline or something. You might have said also why not Cullen? Why not Aveline as Commander of the troops and Cullen as the red Templar General (Cullen himself said he could have ended up as such). Why not Merrill instead of Morrigan, why not Zevran for I don't know who! But it had to be a DA2 templar, because its what happens in Kirkwall that influences the distribution of Red Lyrium.
When you keep Cullen on lyrium the idea is 'we shall deal with it later', which I took to mean after Corypheus falls, then they dropped that narrative. I mean if your inquisitor disbands but wants to stay focussed on stopping (you know who), unless they hate Cullen, why would they abandon him to such a fate? He's been your advisor and possibly friend for years, It seems out of place for any but the coldest of jerk inquisitors. *shrugs* what's done is done. I had planned a play through where I leave him on lyrium, but that slide leaves such a bad taste in my mouth and the way it was implemented I doubt I will now. I could talk about an alternative sad ending for him that makes far more sense, but this isn't the thread for it.
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