1263 Antworten in diesem Thema

[ModernAcademic]

I wonder, would samson and Cullen be in their same situations had they been in different places. Would we have commander Samson if he was in Ferelden and red lyrium Cullen if he was Kirkwall?

 

We made this very question here, in this thread. It's just a few pages ago, I think. A great portion of the Cullen fanbase believes that Cullen is too principled to be corrupted in any manner. That he is the perfect knight in shining armor.

 

I guess the ending slides of addicted-to-lyrium-Cullen just proved some people are idealising him too much...

[Kissiebear]

We made this very question here, in this thread. It's just a few pages ago, I think. A great portion of the Cullen fanbase believes that Cullen is too principled to be corrupted in any manner. That he is the perfect knight in shining armor.

 

I guess the ending slides of addicted-to-lyrium-Cullen just proved some people are idealising him too much...

Yeah but addiction isn't a character flaw.  Idealization has nothing to do with it.  

 

Cullen is addicted to lyrium because all templars are.  He is able to succeed or fail not because lyrium addiction is a moral failing but because he is too proud to accept the help and support that his family and his friends offered him.  And that's only if you literally pull the rug out from under him. 

 

Cullen is flawed in a lot of ways; his non-apology for ignoring or even participating in the abuse of mages in Kirkwall, his disrespect of non-violent methods of "diplomacy" but ADDICTION(the thing that ALL templars are chained to) is NOT a flaw. 

[ModernAcademic]

Yeah but addiction isn't a character flaw.  Idealization has nothing to do with it.  

 

Cullen is addicted to lyrium because all templars are.  He is able to succeed or fail not because lyrium addiction is a moral failing but because he is too proud to accept the help and support that his family and his friends offered him.  And that's only if you literally pull the rug out from under him. 

 

Cullen is flawed in a lot of ways; his non-apology for ignoring or even participating in the abuse of mages in Kirkwall, his disrespect of non-violent methods of "diplomacy" but ADDICTION(the thing that ALL templars are chained to) is NOT a flaw. 

 

Jesus Christ, just where did my posts imply addiction was a character flaw?  

 

I was talking about Cullen having flaws like any ordinary character, rather than being this IDEALISED MAN with superior morals that is impervious to corruption and mostly anything.

 

Of course he would suffer if he kept taking lyrium. That's what long term addiction does to you. You cease to be who you were completely and become a degraded person. But some people think he's better than Samson or any other templar, when they forget that:

 

A) Samson is much older than Cullen and thus began showing "erratic behaviour", as Meredith called it, when Cullen began serving in Kirkwall, a fact Cullen's fanbase tends to conveniently forget when drawing comparisons on both characters. 

 

 <---WTF B ) By the end of Trespasser, Cullen is a lot closer to Samson's age when he began loosening his moral standards to help mages in return for more lyrium. So Cullen's fate is just like Samson's fate in the end. Both men become homeless beggars, having been destroyed by lyrium, like every templar does. Which shows that Cullen and Samson could have had similar lives and are therefore not different because of superior morals or whatever other exceptional quality Cullen's fanbase wrongly and sttubornly attributes to him.

 

That is my point.

[Xilizhra]

So, the idea behind Samson's creation of the red templars is that he thought that all templars were completely unable to break their lyrium addiction, and as such, he might as well give them something better so that they could die more happily, possibly, fighting for Corypheus?

[Tigrae]

So, the idea behind Samson's creation of the red templars is that he thought that all templars were completely unable to break their lyrium addiction, and as such, he might as well give them something better so that they could die more happily, possibly, fighting for Corypheus?

 

I wouldn't say "die more happily", I'd say more like "die inflicting as much pain on the Chantry as the Chantry had inflicted on them" as I interpret it. Samson knows the Templars will die, he's just decided they won't die quietly. 

[Tigrae]

Jesus Christ, just where did my posts imply addiction was a character flaw?  

 

I was talking about Cullen having flaws like any ordinary character, rather than being this IDEALISED MAN with superior morals that is impervious to corruption and mostly anything.

 

Of course he would suffer if he kept taking lyrium. That's what long term addiction does to you. You cease to be who you were completely and become a degraded person. But some people think he's better than Samson or any other templar, when they forget that:

 

A) Samson is much older than Cullen and thus began showing "erratic behaviour", as Meredith called it, when Cullen began serving in Kirkwall, a fact Cullen's fanbase tends to conveniently forget when drawing comparisons on both characters. 

 

 <---WTF B ) By the end of Trespasser, Cullen is a lot closer to Samson's age when he began loosening his moral standards to help mages in return for more lyrium. So Cullen's fate is just like Samson's fate in the end. Both men become homeless beggars, having been destroyed by lyrium, like every templar does. Which shows that Cullen and Samson could have had similar lives and are therefore not different because of superior morals or whatever other exceptional quality Cullen's fanbase wrongly and sttubornly attributes to him.

 

That is my point.

 

I understand the point you're trying to get at, but using the example that Cullen isn't as morally superior and incorruptible as the fandom makes him out to be because he can potentially become a homeless beggar is still painting addiction as a character flaw. You're using the idea that Cullen being an addict makes him corruptible, makes him flawed, and that's using addiction as a character flaw (which is harmful).

 

The actual character flaws that lead Cullen to becoming a homeless beggar are his inability to find his own purpose, his stubbornness, his inability to live for himself, his fear, his doubt, but not his addiction.

 

Cullen is an addict regardless of the choices the Inquisitor makes for him in-game. Addict Cullen retires from the Inquisition and makes a templar recovery facility, Addict Cullen retires with the Inquisitor if he's romanced, Addict Cullen becomes a homeless beggar. His addiction doesn't factor into his character, his addiction is omni-present, it's what he chooses to do about his addiction that factors into his character flaws.

 

Again: I understand that you're trying to say that Cullen is just as flawed as Samson is, but the homeless beggar Cullen slide proves the truth of this by showing how difficult it is for Cullen to survive without a sense of purpose (and his inability to find that on his own), rather than that his addiction was always waiting to drag him down.

 

It's not his addiction that shows Cullen is imperfect, it's his inability to deal with his addiction that shows Cullen is imperfect.

[Eureka234]

I wanted to thank you guys for entertaining me for 51 pages. This thread is pretty much a Cullen VS Samson debate, by the looks of it.... and it still hasn't ended. To me, Cullen  would have turned into Samson if he'd been kicked out of the Circle and not have his family there to support him. Or granted, if he tried to go off lyrium in the Inquisition but the Inquisitor wasn't going to spare anybody help out, even Cassandra. Support is crucial with withdrawal and from what we know off the games, Samson doesn't have those supports. 

 

I've been writing a Samson fanfiction, and maybe it's because I've been writing from Samson's perspective so much that Cullen really annoys me now. He's so proper about following rules that he can't figure out what to do when a compromising situation occurs - partially evident in Inquisition when he jumps back and forth between hating mages and then not hating them. I understand that Kinloch Hold traumatized him but sometimes he doesn't seem to have the awareness that his distrust for mages largely stems from this. He is also quick to judge and probably needs to have a cup of tea and think about his morals a bit. I agree with previous posts that Cullen is a flawed character, as much as Samson is. People idolize him but he's got issues. 

 

If you guys haven't seen them, here are some Samson fics I've read that have been really enjoyable (these are all during/post Inquisition): 

It Ends with a Fall: http://archiveofouro...g/works/3671049

Post Tenebras Lux: http://archiveofouro...g/works/3751876

Beyond the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: http://archiveofouro...g/works/5349263

Little Birds [A AU one shot]: https://www.fanficti.../1/Little-Birds

 

Here's a picture I made. :-) https://storage.jump...MUjedqC16uBUu85

 

I noticed Cerulione left a link to their fanfic "A Templar's Tale" a million pages ago, so I wanted to share the Samson story I've been writing (Samson's Shield of Shame) for anybody who may be interested. It is an attempt at an origin story and I've drafted almost until the end. There are parts that address this Cullen vs Samson debate (later chapters will too). 

I aim to have it tie into the short story by Joanna Berry "Paper and Steel" (http://blog.bioware....ry-paper-steel/). I started writing it two weeks before the short story came out so details deviate a tad. 

Fanfiction link: https://www.fanficti...Shield-of-Shame

AO3 link: http://archiveofouro...hapters/8545999

 

I'm done now.

[Idun]

I'm working on a fic that involves the Inquisitor giving Samson to Cullen (and made it clear he won't be given any lyrium). Question is, should I have Cullen who stopped with lyrium and thus feels on a moral high ground, or a Cullen who got ordered to go back on it and thus having Samson around is potential hell for them both? 

 

It'd be mostly Samson's POV (but occasionally Cullen too), with a few bits on how other companions react to him being around. Cole would have a slightly bigger part since he wants to help. Also, lots of Maddox feels because Samson blames himself for his death.

[Tigrae]

I think it depends on what kind of Inquisitor you have making these decisions.

 

Keeping Cullen on lyrium can be seen as "cruel" but it can also be seen as very pragmatic. Having your general potentially die (and most of Thedas is under the impression that templars that try to go off of lyrium die in the process) in the middle of a war is not a smart decision. Conversely, supporting Cullen's desire to get off of lyrium is an emotional choice and not a pragmatic one.

 

I suppose it also depends on what the goal of telling this story, is. Are you trying to illustrate that Cullen's no different than Samson if he goes clean, despite what Cullen thinks? Cullen watches himself and Samson brought to the breaking point by trying to go clean. Or to showcase how the two handle their detox and sobriety differently? How they support or sabotage one another (relapses aren't uncommon and a very real threat to sobriety)?

 

Are you trying to highlight Samson's compassion if he's around a Cullen who is told to keep taking lyrium? Or Samson's internal struggle about seeing Cullen unsupported in his choice just like Samson was back in Kirkwall?

 

Either way, this is a very delicate subject and it all sort of hinges on what the story is that you want to tell.

[Idun]

Well, my current Inquisitor (I'm on my first) is a mage Lavellan. I think I will keep Cullen off the lyrium. She's a kind person, and while she's going for the egg, she wants to take care of all her companions.

 

Not sure which would be better for the story, though. If Cullen is sober and he has to keep Samson sober (which would be a hard task, wathing him go through withdrawal hell when he's still struggling with it himself), it would be good for drama. If Cullen is back on lyrium, he probably hates himself and thinks he had failed. He could easily think the Inquisitor cares more about his enhanced abilities than him as a person. And Samson could fuel these feelings.

 

Probably the one with sober!Cullen would make for better drama and development. He could start out all high-and-mighty and slowly realize he's not so over it, and probably start to understand Samson better. Meanwhile, Samson realizes Cory was just using him and his men. Just like everyone else, always. (Not necessarily evolving into a romance since I plan a tragic ending.)

[Tigrae]

I just read the news that the forums are going to be removed in a month. Despite the trolls that would occasionally pop into this little thread, I had a great time discussing, dissecting, and appreciating Samson in here. Thanks to everyone who participated and thanks to Jo Berry for popping by to share her insights and her fantastic Samson sculpture with us!

[SmilesJA]

Yup! This was a great forum!

[Kissiebear]

I just read the news that the forums are going to be removed in a month. Despite the trolls that would occasionally pop into this little thread, I had a great time discussing, dissecting, and appreciating Samson in here. Thanks to everyone who participated and thanks to Jo Berry for popping by to share her insights and her fantastic Samson sculpture with us!

I'm going to miss this place!  Some good discussion here and it was really  nice to find good people that understood why Samson is such a well written and awesome character. 

 

Thanks for the memories!

[Jo Berry]

Hi there! Thanks for all the kind words and thoughts you shared here. I never expected Samson and Calpernia to get this kind of love and it's been really amazing. That support helped me especially last year, when I had family illness to cope with: all's well now, but the enthusiasm of our fans was a boost at a time when I really needed one. So thank you for that, too, and for all the cool things you do.

 

Be well, and see you around.