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[BlazingSpeed]

Well the Darkspawn gotta get a foothold on Ferelden first before going after the Wardens.

 

That's true, also the Acrhdemon employed plenty of good strategies including Ostagar, the camp assassination attempt, Redcliff, Denerim etc

 

On topic that fear spider is crap compared to Archie (hometown advantage none withstanding...) just because Quizzy and co couldn't fight at the moment.

 

Even the command spirit owned it for free "Thank you very much mr fear itself".

 

What I really want to know is why the Pride Demons, Arcane Horrors and Revenants got nerfed to hell.

[Ashagar]

What command spirit? The only command spirit in the game was that one in the ruins of old Crestwood.

 

If your talking about the spirit that was pretending to be the divine or was the divine, the game is deliberately unclear, that if anything that was more likely a spirit of faith which would make it both rare and very powerful or something completely unknown which also implies being powerful and even with that it only managed to distract the nightmare long enough for you to fight a aspect. 

[Eliastion]

(...)

What I really want to know is why the Pride Demons, Arcane Horrors and Revenants got nerfed to hell.

They supposedly are not themselves, gone mad from sudden exposure to physical reality... But yeah, it's sad how those powerful, smart beings are reduced to slightly bigger monsters struggling to act at rage-demon intelligence level.

 

 

 

That's true, also the Acrhdemon employed plenty of good strategies including Ostagar, the camp assassination attempt, Redcliff, Denerim etc

Good strategies? Hardly. Archdemon's strategy is very primitive. Enough to say that he does indeed use strategy, but "plenty good strategies" is definitely not the case.

[Aimi]

Good strategies? Hardly. Archdemon's strategy is very primitive. Enough to say that he does indeed use strategy, but "plenty good strategies" is definitely not the case.

Let's be fair: it's not clear to me that BioWare writers know enough military history to plausibly develop heap good strategy.

[xJLxKing]

I think we also have to keep in mind that no matter how strong or smart the villain is, they all fall to the plot device. 

 

We know Archdemon is smart, they were intelligent gods at one point; they are leading an entire horde, across multiple nations, and continents(?) against every enemy out there. 

[TEWR]

They supposedly are not themselves, gone mad from sudden exposure to physical reality... But yeah, it's sad how those powerful, smart beings are reduced to slightly bigger monsters struggling to act at rage-demon intelligence level.

 

Good strategies? Hardly. Archdemon's strategy is very primitive. Enough to say that he does indeed use strategy, but "plenty good strategies" is definitely not the case.

 

The only real good strategy it came up with was capitalizing on Ferelden's weakness by sending out scattered Darkspawn war bands to cause havoc in the countryside, playing into the idea the people of Ferelden had that it wasn't a Blight. This also allowed him to scout out the terrain and allow the civil war to fester and further weaken Ferelden, so that he could conquer it easily.

 

....then he screwed it up by showing up at Denerim.

 

Ostagar was basically a Zerg Rush after (I assume) he tapped into Duncan's mind for the battle plan and had Darkspawn invade the Tower. 

 

 

I think we also have to keep in mind that no matter how strong or smart the villain is, they all fall to the plot device. 

 

We know Archdemon is smart, they were intelligent gods at one point; they are leading an entire horde, across multiple nations, and continents(?) against every enemy out there. 

 

Except the Archdemon isn't leading the Darkspawn across all of Thedas (sadly, as that's one of the big questions I had. Always asked why that wasn't happening when it's got control over all of the Darkspawn now). It's only in Ferelden. 

 

All of the Orlesian Wardens and a good portion of Orlais' military weren't dealing with the Darkspawn in their own lands, but were ready to hop over to Ferelden. Even when the borders were closed, they camped out over there.

[TEWR]

Let's be fair: it's not clear to me that BioWare writers know enough military history to plausibly develop heap good strategy.

 

Also this. Throw in political storytelling as well. 

 

Bioware doesn't know **** about those two things.

[MACharlie1]

Also this. Throw in political storytelling as well.

Bioware doesn't know **** about those two things.

Do game developers in general know anything about either?

(And now some smartass will come and bring up another game that the writers do know and blah blah...I'm talking in general not th exception)

[Aimi]

Also this. Throw in political storytelling as well. 
 
Bioware doesn't know **** about those two things.

 

Do game developers in general know anything about either?

(And now some smartass will come and bring up another game that the writers do know and blah blah...I'm talking in general not th exception)

Most writers don't. Even the ones who get plaudits from general press, like George R.R. Martin, are pretty atrocious; Martin's military leaders are nitwits and his political leaders, even the ones that are supposed to be brilliant, would be no match for many of the geniuses of history. The ones who do the best at it arguably do so because they skimp on detail, allowing readers/viewers/players to fill in the details on their own.

[Aren]

The HoF needed a lot of support to take on a wounded archdemon, even discounting the flunkies that are fighting the darkspawn. Also, it needed to be beaten. There was no reason to take risks fighting the nightmare when it wasn't the threat that needed to be stopped.

Moreover, the archdemon looks so much cooler

To be fair is possible to defeated the archdemon on Nightmare only with Leliana, pretty much the ballista have done all the work.

I vote for the Nightmare that demon have used as meals since the time of the 1st blight the fears of the mortals, he is even more powerful and ancient than the Dread wolf.

Maybe some spirits and demons are beyond the old gods and the elven gods.

[Elfyoth]

The Archdemon is an Old God corrupted. They keyword here is "god". In theory, that should make it along with Flemeth the most powerful enemies in the game.

And yet, it is from the The Nightmare that our party is forced to run.

Hmmm lets think a mintute, the Quizzy need to close that rift as fast as possible that a huge demon will not come out of it, and lets think another minute, pepole are diyng out there, but I dont think its the reason most likely the Quizzy must close it before the huge demon comes out. 

[Aimi]

To be fair is possible to defeated the archdemon on Nightmare only with Leliana, pretty much the ballista have done all the work.
I vote for the Nightmare that demon have used as meals since the time of the 1st blight the fears of the mortals, he is even more powerful and ancient than the Dread wolf.
Maybe some spirits and demons are beyond the old gods and the elven gods.

You can solo the Archdemon on Nightmare. No Leliana necessary.

And the Nightmare can't be more ancient than the Dread Wolf, because Fen'Harel was already a god in Arlathan long before the First Blight.

[xJLxKing]

Ancient doesn't means it's powerful

[Ashagar]

No what implies its powerful is lore wise a single fear demon feeding on the fears of a single nation will grow powerful enough to warp the fade and the Nightmare has been gorging on the fears of all of Thadas regarding the darkspawn and the blight since the first blight. That makes it vastly more powerful than anything else we have seen in the series.

[xJLxKing]

No what implies its powerful is lore wise a single fear demon feeding on the fears of a single nation will grow powerful enough to warp the fade and the Nightmare has been gorging on the fears of all of Thadas regarding the darkspawn and the blight since the first blight. That makes it vastly more powerful than anything else we have seen in the series.

I'll post the two codex ppl seem to confuse a lot when I get the chance

[Aimi]

Ancient doesn't means it's powerful

No, it means "old". He claimed that the Nightmare was older than Fen'Harel.

The First Blight did not start until -395 Ancient. If we agree that the Nightmare's power is sourced from the fear of the Blight, then we have a terminus post quem for the Nightmare's existence of -395 Ancient. Before that date, since the Blight did not exist, the Nightmare would not have existed as the Nightmare.

Arlathan was not destroyed until -975 Ancient. Fen'Harel existed as a being in Elvhenan before it was destroyed; the terminus ante quem for Fen'Harel's existence is -975 Ancient, and in all probability he existed long before that.

Fen'Harel must have existed before -975 Ancient, and the Nightmare cannot have been the Nightmare until -395 Ancient. We can therefore say that the Nightmare was not "more ancient than the Dread Wolf".

[xJLxKing]

@Eirene, right, I agree. I was trying to explain that just because it's old doesn't mean it's more powerful because the poster said, he implied that he is older as if that mattered.

 

 

ANYWAYS. My class is getting boring so I figured i'd elaborate a few things.

 

 

I don't think we should take what a specific Codex says when there are feats that contradict that. I also believe that feats are more appropriate, suitable, and exceed what is implied. So for example, if High Dragon Codex says they are the strongest creatures but then we see them lose to a Giant, clearly, the feat is more appropriate than the codex. The reason why I'm saying this is because some people look at the Codex

 

http://dragonage.wik...dex_entry:_FearIt and I will quote a specific part

Spoiler

Beware the fear demon that gorges upon the terror of not only a single nightmare but of a nation, for it will grow to such size that it dominates the Fade

 

Keep in mind, there is also a Codex about the Archdemon that says http://dragonage.wik...ry:_The_Old_God

Spoiler

There were seven Old Gods, great winged dragons that were said to rule over the ancient world

 

There is also a codex about the Pride demon saying it's the most powerful this is found in the same game. http://dragonage.wik...n_(Inquisition)

 

 

So while the Codex are a good source of facts and information, we shouldn't take what is implies as a fact especially when it comes to relative strength. I think the idea of the Codex is that they are written from a Character in the game, in this case a Templar or Mage.

 

One last thing, the 2 codex about the fear Demon, 

http://dragonage.wik...e_(Inquisition)

http://dragonage.wik...dex_entry:_Fear

 

Remember the Fear codex (2nd one) is only implying that the Fear demon that feeds on the fear(S) (plural) of a nation can become strong enough to dominate the fade. It's pretty obvious that it does not specific the actual conditions because it's implied. This character wouldn't know because he can't live long enough. He even says himself, he hasn't found this type of creature (1st codex)

 

 

So my point being is, don't take what this codex says as 100% fact. Sometimes it's just implied just like how for the Pride Demon, it's implied that in their general power, they are the strongest. It doesn't have to tell you that specifically but it's implied because we know there are stronger demons like the one we encountered this game. Even with the Old Gods Codex, they rule over, it doesn't mean that exactly; It's figurative 

 

If you are going to have a Archdemon vs Fear Demon found in Inquisition, I think it's fair to say, the Archdemon has just as much implied power as the fear demon with the addition of a lot of feats. For one it is immortal, has dragon properties, and it also has attacks that reach the fade (correct if plz, it said so in book). Well that's my interpretation of this anyways. I'm sure we will see this Fear demon in the future where we will have to fight it, but I can not see it ever being the Main Villain, hence i doubt it will be portrayed as the strongest.

[Dean_the_Young]

Let's be fair: it's not clear to me that BioWare writers know enough military history to plausibly develop heap good strategy.

 

That's generous. I hold far more certainty on that same view.

[Dean_the_Young]

No, it means "old". He claimed that the Nightmare was older than Fen'Harel.

The First Blight did not start until -395 Ancient. If we agree that the Nightmare's power is sourced from the fear of the Blight, then we have a terminus post quem for the Nightmare's existence of -395 Ancient. Before that date, since the Blight did not exist, the Nightmare would not have existed as the Nightmare.

Arlathan was not destroyed until -975 Ancient. Fen'Harel existed as a being in Elvhenan before it was destroyed; the terminus ante quem for Fen'Harel's existence is -975 Ancient, and in all probability he existed long before that.

Fen'Harel must have existed before -975 Ancient, and the Nightmare cannot have been the Nightmare until -395 Ancient. We can therefore say that the Nightmare was not "more ancient than the Dread Wolf".

 

I'll just briefly raise the prospect that the power of the Blight may have pre-existed what we now know as the First Blight. Certainly the power of the golden city was implied to be known (and feared) according to Mythal's temple translations if you drink from the well, while the Ancient Elves/Ancient Dwarves were dealing with some sort of corruption force from the Deep in ye ancient times.

 

None of which proves anything about pre-dating the Dread Wolf, merely that we might move back dates a bit.

[Aimi]

I'll just briefly raise the prospect that the power of the Blight may have pre-existed what we now know as the First Blight. Certainly the power of the golden city was implied to be known (and feared) according to Mythal's temple translations if you drink from the well, while the Ancient Elves/Ancient Dwarves were dealing with some sort of corruption force from the Deep in ye ancient times.
 
None of which proves anything about pre-dating the Dread Wolf, merely that we might move back dates a bit.

Well, the beauty of what I was pointing out is that any theoretical primordial taint is irrelevant. The Nightmare wasn't spawned directly from the Blight. It gained power because of fear of the Blight. And fear of the Blight only would have allowed it to grow to outsize proportions after the outbreak of the First Blight. Even if the taint predated the First Blight - locked up in the Golden City, or in primeval thaigs, or what have you - it was not widely known, and few people would have been afraid of it.

[fhs33721]

Well, the beauty of what I was pointing out is that any theoretical primordial taint is irrelevant. The Nightmare wasn't spawned directly from the Blight. It gained power because of fear of the Blight. And fear of the Blight only would have allowed it to grow to outsize proportions after the outbreak of the First Blight. Even if the taint predated the First Blight - locked up in the Golden City, or in primeval thaigs, or what have you - it was not widely known, and few people would have been afraid of it.

But the nightmare was most likely around before the first blight. It has the memories of an  slave that served under Corypheus before the blight-causing ritual in it's realm. It wasn't that powerful back then most likely but that doesn't change the fact it could be older than Fen'harel.

Also since Solas says spirits never truly die and taht after death their essece lives on to eventually remform into a similar entity (though without memories) I assume demons work the same way, which would mean that the Nightmare (or at least his essence) is most likely indeed older than Fen'Harel.

(Unless my theory that elven gods are all powerful fade spirts as well turns out to be true of course.)

 

As for the Archdemon vs the Nightmare.  I do think the Nightmare is indeed more powerful (based on current evidence). It took the Inquisitor, three of her/his companions, Hawke and Stroud/Alistair/Loghain to defeat a mere aspect of it, it has the power to control a demon army powerful enough to lay waste to southern Thedas, its one of the few villains you can't (so far) kill in the franchise, it has fed on the fears entire Thedas for centuries at least and unless a archdemon  (if Solas talk about spirits is also true for demons) its essence is truly immortal.

[Captmorgan72]

Arch Demons ARE NOT High Dragons.

 

It's not just their immortality, or their ability to command the Darkspawn. Their attacks are different. Didn't one attack by a Arch Demon was something that was both Fade and physical in nature?

 

My point being, an Archdemon is a God whose form is a High Dragon 

The way I see it, spirits of the Fade are like angels in the Bible, the first children of the Maker. Some spirits desire what the new children have and chose to rebel from their original purpose and fall like the fallen angels of scripture. Some of these spirits became The Old Gods. These spirits possessed high dragons as their vessels in the physical world. From within their dragon vessels they were worshipped by many. The taint, which I believe is a supernatural virus, can only infect organic life, so spirit's vessels are affected by it. The fact that an Old God would suddenly become the leader of the horde of darkspawn makes sense, as they originally sought the worship of the new children and gaining many devoted followers that grows when their children spread the taint seems like a very desirable thing for them to have.

 

Now the Nightmare demon was a demon of fear. This demon has gorged itself on the fears of all of Thedas throughout the years of blights. It has grown in power and has become a demon of nightmares. Within it's own realm it is supremely powerful, god like. The Archdemon is a fallen spirit within a high dragon that commands a horde of darkspawn. The Archdemon is immortal as long as there remains vessels carrying the taint around it. Without a Grey Warden, the Archdemon can't be killed. The Nightmare demon can't be destroyed by Grey Wardens, since it doesn't carry the taint and it certainly can't be destroyed by a group of six mortals. As long as the Nightmare demon stays in the Fade, my $ is on the Nightmare demon being the most powerful of the two. In fact as I stated in another thread, I believe that the Nightmare demon is analogous to Lucifer from the Bible. There is no force more powerful within the Fade, other than the Maker. 

 

Some people have wondered why Corypheus did not attempt to take control of the darkspawn hordes and use them to conquer Thedas. I believe it's because of his Tevinter pride. He sees the darkspawn as abominations and wants to destroy them along with the Old Gods. He believes that he is the master of the taint, not mastered by it. 

[JadeDragon]

I completely agree with why cory didn't use darkspawn in his ranks. I think its a strong denial that he is even one of them so strong that he tries to take his curse and turn it into blessing and become a god to the world. Had he tried to use darkspawn i doubt anyone would have followed him since darkspawn is the common enemy of all. I also agree with the nightmare demon. I think he is one of a few demon lord type demons. Maybe there is a ultra powerful demon of desire, pride and sloth like him. Someone has to rule the fade and i am sure some demons have larger domains then others probably allowing demons to have a domain within theres. The way nightmare demon used cory to his benefit fits the lucifer type role. Why wouldn't he want to destroy the people who ends the blight and with two archdemons left i think his role can expand because he needs these two last blights to be more terrible then the 5th blight after word got out how short it was the fear from future blights won't be as deep.