102 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Goes to show how subjective this all is. I thought the Rannoch arc was horrible. If not for the ending, it'd be one of my largest complaints.

Rannoch has its problems (I really hate what they did with the geth there) but at least it ties in with events in the other games.

[Valmar]

Rannoch has its problems (I really hate what they did with the geth there) but at least it ties in with events in the other games.

 

The general underlying idea of the quarian vs geth history being finally resolved fits in with the events. The method and execution of it however didn't fit in at all. Largely due in part to what they did to the geth, completely disconnecting themselves from the previously established lore and events. Even the war itself, really, is rather out-of-place with everything else. It makes a degree of sense, the war I mean, if you sold Legion but otherwise it seems rather OOC that Legion made no attempt to broker peace or communication with the quarians - despite his platform being specifically built to handle such tasks. Wasted potential, really. Though there's a lot of that going on in ME3. Lol.

[Reorte]

I agree with all of that. By "tie in with events in the other games" though I mean that at least choices from ME2 played in to it (although some more obvious visible ones would've been nice).

[Jorji Costava]

I agree with the general idea that the focus on Earth wasn't a good way to establish the stakes for ME3's story, but if we're being fair, we have to admit that ME2 pretty much did the same thing with the human colonies. We've never been to any of these colonies before and have never met anyone from them, but they form the basis of ME2 as a suspense story. I call it the Star Trek: Generations problem; in that film, we're informed that if the characters fail to stop Tolian Soran, a "pre-warp civilization, population 230 million" will be wiped out. We are given absolutely no other information about this civilization or why it matters whatsoever.

[wright1978]

I agree with the general idea that the focus on Earth wasn't a good way to establish the stakes for ME3's story, but if we're being fair, we have to admit that ME2 pretty much did the same thing with the human colonies. We've never been to any of these colonies before and have never met anyone from them, but they form the basis of ME2 as a suspense story. I call it the Star Trek: Generations problem; in that film, we're informed that if the characters fail to stop Tolian Soran, a "pre-warp civilization, population 230 million" will be wiped out. We are given absolutely no other information about this civilization or why it matters whatsoever.

 

The major difference is that the Collector's were solely targetting human colonies, whereas the reapers were targetting all advanced life. If the reapers were solely targetting earth it would have made sense but as that wasn't the case the focus was complete nonsense.

[dragonflight288]

The Reapers wanted to conquer earth to try pizza. 

[God]

I agree with the general idea that the focus on Earth wasn't a good way to establish the stakes for ME3's story, but if we're being fair, we have to admit that ME2 pretty much did the same thing with the human colonies. We've never been to any of these colonies before and have never met anyone from them, but they form the basis of ME2 as a suspense story. I call it the Star Trek: Generations problem; in that film, we're informed that if the characters fail to stop Tolian Soran, a "pre-warp civilization, population 230 million" will be wiped out. We are given absolutely no other information about this civilization or why it matters whatsoever.

As wright said, there's a disconnect to how Earth is portrayed in ME3 and how humanity was portrayed in ME2. We know that the Collectors are targeting humanity alone, and that they're operating outside of alliance jurisdiction to attack these colonies, as well as implying and then confirming that the Collectors are heavily tied to the Reapers.

 

So no, ME2 was not doing the same thing with the human colonies; while never given a reason to really care about the colonies, we do know that on an overall scale, something sinister is happening and they have their sights on humans alone.

[Valmar]

I have moved on

 

Evidences says the contrary.

 

 

then again you are clearly a blind fanboy

 

1. The irony, the sweet bitter irony.

2. Not really surprising coming from you, this is hardly the first time you've waved away anyone who doesn't share your views as being a fanboy. The ad hominem is strong in this one.

 

 

(and the ec was useless anyway)

 

Your opinion ads little to your argument when you make such bold, absolutist claims.

 

 

most players hated the ME3 endings if you don't think that then you must have lived under a rock when all the controversy and shitstorm happened
of course there were always somen pro ending people like you who liked the bad writing

 

You're naive if you sincerely believe the majority of players hated the ending. You cannot make such a broad assumption like that based solely on the passionate outcry of fanboys online. What the majority believe and what those on the internet believe has been proven with statistical facts to be quite opposite to one another.

 

If you were to believe all the online praise you'd think Wrex was someone almost everyone saves. Yet less than half actually do.

 

Believe all the hype and you'd think Femshep is god's gift to gaming. Less than 20% actually played her.

 

You'd think that at least half of all players actually played the entire trilogy yet less than 40% did.

 

You'd think Soldier would be the shunned class yet more people play it than all the other classes combined.

 

You'd think everyone does the loyalty and side missions, yet evidence suggests otherwise. (Average gametime, percentage of loyalty missions complete differs between platforms)

 

You'd think most people who started playing would FINISH THE GAME. Only "roughly 50%" actually finished it. Don't throw any "but ME3 ending is teh sucks brah" at me either because this is a ME2 statistic.

 

You'd think Tali was a big fan favorite. Then you find out she nearly didn't even make it into the game and is taken on missions less than 10% of the time, being beaten by Vega of all people.

 

You'd think a lot of people play gold in multiplayer. Shockingly less than 1% of successful matches are on on gold. Hell, 41% of missions end in failure!

 

That's a lot of statistics, but what does it all prove? It proves that we /cannot/ make an accurate assumption on what is "most popular" based solely around what is loudest on the internet. The real  statistics prove to us, time and time again, that what you assume to be the case based off the internet fanbase is NOT the case for the vast majority of players. Did the ending stir up a loud outcry online? You better believe it did. Does that magically translate to "the majority of players" hating it? Not even close. Don't be naive and think our opinion (those unhappy with the ending) is anything more than a loud online fanbase. We do NOT make up the bulk of people who actually purchased and played the game. Not even close. If we did I imagine EC would had been a much bigger deal and have more content, actually.

[DirtySHISN0]

It's like i'm back in march 2012 all over again and i'm still annoyed.

[angol fear]

most players hated the ME3 endings if you don't think that then you must have lived under a rock when all the controversy and shitstorm happened
of course there were always somen pro ending people like you who liked the bad writing

 

Most people on internet. Actually, in real life, I know just one guy who didn't like the ending. And it was just because he wanted to know what happened to the other characters, so EC was perfect for him. Sorry but internet isn't real life. People who talk a lot on internet are mostly the same frustrated guys... Yeah, we have the illusion that most people hated the ending if we spend our time on internet...

 

And for the bad writing argument, I just laugh.

[DirtySHISN0]

Most people on internet. Actually, in real life, I know just one guy who didn't like the ending. And it was just because he wanted to know what happened to the other characters, so EC was perfect for him. Sorry but internet isn't real life. People who talk a lot on internet are mostly the same frustrated guys... Yeah, we have the illusion that most people hated the ending if we spend our time on internet...

Every irl friend of mine who played ME3 disliked the ending. The more casual players among them didn't even download the extended cut, they just wrote off the game there and then. The internet is for the vocal die hards, the casual players mostly likely lost interest in mass effect directly after finishing it.

[themikefest]

You'd think Tali was a big fan favorite. Then you find out she nearly didn't even make it into the game and is taken on missions less than 10% of the time, being beaten by Vega of all people.

How different would that number be if she was available at the beginning of the game?

[angol fear]

Every irl friend of mine who played ME3 disliked the ending. The more casual players among them didn't even download the extended cut, they just wrote off the game there and then. The internet is for the vocal die hards, the casual players mostly likely lost interest in mass effect directly after finishing it.

 

I disagree, many people I know liked the ending and are not casual players, they just don't care about internet and forum, because it's fake discussion, not because they are "casual players".

When I explained the ending to people on internet who were listening (it's very rare), they changed their opinion from "the ending is bad, rushed" etc...into "the ending is actually really great but hard to understand".

 

edit : and what is a casual player for you? Someone who doesn't play a lot? someone who play a lot but a lot of game? etc...

[DirtySHISN0]

I disagree, many people I know liked the ending and are not casual players, they just don't care about internet and forum, because it's fake discussion, not because they are "casual players".

When I explained the ending to people on internet who were listening (it's very rare), they changed their opinion from "the ending is bad, rushed" etc...into "the ending is actually really great but hard to understand".

 

edit : and what is a casual player for you? Someone who doesn't play a lot? someone who play a lot but a lot of game? etc...

You cant really disagree with my personal experience lol.

 

Mass Effect isn't a competitive game. Take my particular friend group, one of them is a complete and trade in the same day king of guy - he rarely keeps any. He certainly isn't on BSN 3 years after release providing input, shaping the next in the franchise. Casual* to me, is someone who can take it or leave it, play it and enjoy it, but not find a special place in their heart for it. A person who perhaps completed it, but really isn't all that interested in the lore and probably wont think about it until another Mass Effect is released.

 

* Specific to this franchise

[Valmar]

How different would that number be if she was available at the beginning of the game?

 

Good question. I wish we had more details on how the statistics are gathered and how they're being factored.

 

Still, the fact that she almost didn't even make it into the game is pretty telling. It suggests that those numbers, even if gimped by her late appearance, may not be too far-off. Depressing for me, a Talimancer. Though at least she made it into the game. I have to take my victories where I can. Look at how they handled the other romances. Could had been so much worse. Lol.

 

 

I can see what you mean of course I can't give you any proof what the majority of the players thought about the ending I'm only talking about the internet fans basically those who take the time and post feedback and that feeback matters
 

 

That certainly didn't sound like what you meant. GalacticWolf argued that 90% of people who played the game (not specifically internet fanboys) didn't hate the ending. You countered him by calling him a blind fanboy living under a rock. You didn't even mention "internet fans", you just made the broad claim that the majority hated it. "Most players" hated it, you said.

 

 

I think you underestimate the internet fanbase
the EC was only made because there was this huge shitstorm

 

I don't underestimate the internet fanbase in its ability to make change - you're changing my argument into something it wasn't. EC is proof that Bioware does listen, at least partially, to fans. Not nearly enough but there it is. There is a difference between believing the internet fanbase has any "power" and believing that they represent the majority of fans. They may be able to get Bioware's attention and encourage some action on their part but the online community is still the minority of overall gamers who played the game. Which was the context of my argument, the fact that the online community does not make up the majority of all Mass Effect gamers.

 

My argument had nothing to do with the "power" of the online fanbase, it was solely to point out that the internet fanbase does not make up the bulk of the gamers who played Mass Effect. We are a minority. No matter how loud we are or how much pull we have, we are the minority. That is all I was saying. Though I suspect you know that, you performing a strawman argument on me isn't out of character, unfortunately.

 

 

Tali became a squadmate in ME3 because she has soo many fans online

 

Aye, and she almost DIDN'T become a squadmate because she isn't that popular to the majority, apparently. It was a close call indeed. That being said I'm skeptical of her having "soo many" fans online. A passionate bunch to be sure but I'd be hesitate to claim their numbers are proportionately high.

 

 

So you see these internet "fanboys" matter

 

I never said they didn't. I only said they don't make up the majority of gamers.

 

 

like @valmar you are very quick to disregard the internet fanbase
see my reply to valmar

the fans on the internet matter a lot more than you would like to believe
and you can keep laughing (this time at your arrogance) but the EC, lack of auto dialogue in DA I etc. prove my point
 

 

Again with the strawman fallacy. You're twisting arguments around to be something they aren't so that you can rally behind a flag of irrelevant claims. The argument Angol, Galactic and myself made was that the online community does not represent the majority of fans or gamers who played the game, which is what you initially claimed even though you later backpedaled.

 

I don't know where you're getting this stuff about us underestimating the power of the fanbase from. This had absolutely nothing to do with the argument. None of this changes the fact that the majority of people who played the game are NOT the online community. The online fanbase is the minority. What power or influence they have is irrelevant to that point, I didn't see anyone make any claim otherwise. The argument was that you said the majority of all people who played the game hated the ending and we all pointed out that the online community doesn't equal the majority. It appears to me that you bring up this "online fanboys matter" argument for the sole purpose of waving a flag to look victorious in your originally false argument.

[Reorte]

Aye, and she almost DIDN'T become a squadmate because she isn't that popular to the majority, apparently. It was a close call indeed. That being said I'm skeptical of her having "soo many" fans online. A passionate bunch to be sure but I'd be hesitate to claim their numbers are proportionately high.

Since Tali and Garrus are the only ones who had been with Shepard from the start by the end of ME2 it would seem odd not to have her in 3. The odd bit was her reappearing in 2, if she hadn't done that than not having her as a squadmate in 3 would've made much more sense.

Anyway as one of those overly passionate fans I'm glad she was there

[Valmar]

^lol someone really wants to win this argument
@ angol fear was VERY clearly sayjng that the internet fans are just some frustrated guys who think the ending sucks just because they don't take their time to understand it and to listen

 

Granted Angol isn't as clear cut as Galactic. Still the argument was on the same general principle: the online community doesn't make up the majority of the fanbase. Nothing you say to the contrary is going to make this any less true.

 

As for fans not taking their time to understand it... well, that's not entirely inaccurate. There are a LOT of misconceptions people have about the ending. The ending is bad but rarely do I see it get criticized for real flaws. Most of the time the **** people are whining about is just a misunderstanding on their part. Which is a shame since it distracts from all the real issues the ending has. Some people even go out of their way to headcanon and speculate more reasons to hate it, rather than stick with the lore and tackle the real issues. But I digress.

 

 

its just a "fake discussion" in real life people apparently do like it
I'm not sure how you and galactic wolf and angol fear (I'm not sure about you but the other two are desperate ending defenders) can say that somehow the people in real life like the ending
 

 

Your constant strawman is getting on my nerves, in all honesty. This will likely be the last time I reply to your post if you continue this tactic.

 

I admit that Angol isn't as black-white on this subject but Galactic and myself both made it very clear our argument was that the online community DOESN'T represent the majority of gamers. You keep warping everything we say into something it isn't. It is not my argument that everyone else likes the ending. I don't know one way or another, no one really knows. Anecdotal evidence at best. My argument was that we CANNOT make an assumption either way because what is true for the online community is rarely true for the majority.

 

You cannot assume that just because a lot of people on the internet whine about the ending that therefore the majority of all gamers who played the game most have hated it. The evidence of the Bioware statistics proves that the internet is a very unreliable bases for such assumptions. That doesn't mean they don't hate it, it doesn't mean they do. It just means we cannot say for sure one way or another. The online community are not the majority and we have to take their opinion with a grain of salt when making a bases for what the majority actually felt. The online community are a very small sample size and indicative of the overall whole.

 

Galactic and myself only pointed out that the online community aren't the majority and that its naive to assume 90% of all people who played the game hated the ending (which is what YOU claimed!). You then come in accusing him of living under a rock and being a blind fanboy. Then you backtrack your position and make the claim that our argument was somehow relevant to the influence of the online community. Now you claim we said most people liked the ending. You're practically a politician at this point. Or an anti-ending lobbyist, at anyrate.

 

 

sure the internet doesn't represent the majority of players and at the end of the day there is no real proof what they thought but if the "hardcore" fans already hated it (they are the one' who come here to complain about it and give feedback) who's to say most casuals are somehow different and didn't hate it

how are these real life fans so different than us?( except just not caring THAT much about the game)? Can't they see bad writing?
 

 

Further proof of your backpedaling. Though a good thing in this case, since you were completely wrong the first time.

 

Whos the say most casuals are different? The statistics say it. The whole point was that the stats paint a very different picture of what the majority like/do in relation to what you'd assume would be most popular based off the internet community.

 

Admitting the ending had bad writing is not the same as hating the ending. I thought a LOT of the trilogy had bad writing but still enjoyed it nevertheless. You didn't say 90% of people thought the writing was bad, you said 90% hated it.

 

 

like @dirty.. said most people in in real that he/she knows who played ME3 hated the ending
and I had the same experience but because those guys aren't as passionate as we are they just dropped ME3 ("just another game")
 

 

Anecdotal evidence, nothing more. What about Angol experience? What about the people he knows who DIDN'T hate the ending  - who LIKED it? You're going to ignore his experience because it doesn't favor your agenda? You'll cite Dity's experience because it fits in with what you want but you'll overlook any that goes against it? The fact of the matter neither of your experiences changes anything. For every guy who says "all my friends hated it!" there will be someone who says "my friends liked it!" This is hearsay and does nothing to support either side.

 

There is no real bases available to use to make a conclusion one way or another about how the general public perceived the ending. Claiming 90% of all people who played it hated is as invalid as claiming 90% liked it. We don't know. The internet community do not make the bulk of the audience and regardless of how poorly it was recieved by people on the internet we cannot assume that it then must have been unanimously hated by everyone who played.
 

 

 

Since Tali and Garrus are the only ones who had been with Shepard from the start by the end of ME2 it would seem odd not to have her in 3. The odd bit was her reappearing in 2, if she hadn't done that than not having her as a squadmate in 3 would've made much more sense.

Anyway as one of those overly passionate fans I'm glad she was there

 

I agree completely. I'm a Talimancer so I'd hate to think of what I'd feel like if they had completely left her out. I already get annoyed that she only comes up halfway through the game Shame to see that trend carried over into ME3. Though like I said, could be worse. I appreciate what we get, lol.

[Reorte]

Granted Angol isn't as clear cut as Galactic. Still the argument was on the same general principle: the online community doesn't make up the majority of the fanbase. Nothing you say to the contrary is going to make this any less true.

Whilst that's obviously true it also gets used to dismiss a large chunk of opinion all too often. You certainly can't draw any very reliable conclusions but it may be possible to compare game forum reactions to their games and a more general concensus. After all "we don't have a clue how any game was received" isn't accurate either.

FWIW I think the general reaction to absolutely anything, unless it's insanely awful or brilliant is "meh" from most people. Play and forget. I doubt that ME3 is any different there. You need to get invested to be moved much by either the good or the bad, and it's probably fair to say that the online community is a little more representative of that part of the player base.

I agree completely. I'm a Talimancer so I'd hate to think of what I'd feel like if they had completely left her out. I already get annoyed that she only comes up halfway through the game Shame to see that trend carried over into ME3. Though like I said, could be worse. I appreciate what we get, lol.

At least in 2 I can have her present for most of the game with a little help from Gibbed.

[Valmar]

Whilst that's obviously true it also gets used to dismiss a large chunk of opinion all too often. You certainly can't draw any very reliable conclusions but it may be possible to compare game forum reactions to their games and a more general concensus. After all "we don't have a clue how any game was received" isn't accurate either.

 

True enough. The point however was that he was making an absolute and bold claim that 90% of all players hated the ending. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of players didn't like the ending (many, I suspect, for false reasons) but claiming in such absolutist fashion that 90% of all players hated it is just wrong.  We don't really know, therefore we must abstain ourselves from such absolutist claims.

 

Bit hypocritical of me but at the same time while I might not be surprised if a lot of people didn't like the ending I wouldn't be surprised to find out if a lot of them liked it. Mainly due to the statistics Bioware has already released. Many of the statistics astound me as it is. I never would have believed them to be the case simply due to the online community being so contrary to it but there it is. Its humbling, imo, to be presented with statistics that completely shatter preconceived notions of what is 'normal'.

 

If the online community can turn out to be such a, in some cases, drastic minority in the actual statistics then it isn't a stretch to assume the bitterness of the ending is also a minority. Our numbers only look high when in the online bubble. When exposed to the sheer number of actual gamers out there in the world that have played the game, however, our numbers pale in significance. We're a passionate and vocal few, but we are not the majority.

 

Still, you're right, there may be enough there to allude to them hating it. It isn't conclusive either way, though. If it wasn't for the released statistics I wouldn't feel so hesitant about making such assumptions. Like I said, its humbling.

 

 

FWIW I think the general reaction to absolutely anything, unless it's insanely awful or brilliant is "meh" from most people. Play and forget. I doubt that ME3 is any different there. You need to get invested to be moved much by either the good or the bad, and it's probably fair to say that the online community is a little more representative of that part of the player base.

 

I agree. The fact that such a huge percentage of people didn't even finish the game or play the entire trilogy is, in of itself, pretty telling of the general "meh" feeling. Though I'd also counter that by saying, imo, a lot of the hate the ending gets is not from people who actually have a full understanding of the lore. As pretentious as that sounds so many of the complaints I hear are simply misconceptions and not actually true.  That doesn't mean all are, of course, just that an uncomfortable amount of them are. There's evidence to support the reaper's claim of us not being able to understand them, basically.

 

Worse bit is that whenever you bring it up to them that what they're complaining about isn't real they tend to get really defensive and start accusing you of being a pro-ending lover. As if countering any complaint about the ending must immediately mean you love the ending and think it has no flaws. One can dislike, even hate the ending without resorting to inaccurate complaints that aren't true in the lore.

 

Furthermore the amusing thing in these cases is if all they hate about the ending is the misconceptions they have then it suggests that if they knew that they were wrong they'd suddenly love the ending, since none of the complaints were real. This behavior of accusing the ending of false wrongs distracts from the actual problems, gives it a pass even. Its part of what leads the writers to saying things like "they were upset because Shepard died".

 

Enough of my rant, though.

 

At least in 2 I can have her present for most of the game with a little help from Gibbed.

 

The real kicker is that the dialogue is mostly all there for most of the squad, even though its otherwise impossible to have them without gibbed. This tells me that they originally planned them all to be recruitable from the start. The conspiracy-nut in me places the blame on Xbox 360 and its limited DVD format that forced them to cut the content onto two separate discs. If not for the limitations of an out dated console we could had been enjoying any of the squadies at anytime.

 

Does the Gibbed trick not work in ME3? (I never actually used it myself, just youtubed)

[Reorte]

The real kicker is that the dialogue is mostly all there for most of the squad, even though its otherwise impossible to have them without gibbed. This tells me that they originally planned them all to be recruitable from the start. The conspiracy-nut in me places the blame on Xbox 360 and its limited DVD format that forced them to cut the content onto two separate discs. If not for the limitations of an out dated console we could had been enjoying any of the squadies at anytime.
 
Does the Gibbed trick not work in ME3? (I never actually used it myself, just youtubed)

I think it is for the reasons you said, and the Gibbed trick unfortunately doesn't work on 3 because it wasn't a late change in the design that resulted in the characters not being present.

I don't know if the completion scores tell us a great deal without further insight. For example Skyrim was a pretty popular game (although not without its detractors) and looking at the achievement records on Steam suggest that a large number of people didn't play it for all that long. I don't know enough about the statistics to draw any conclusion, although one could probably be drawn by someone with sufficient detailed knowledge of typical game sales / completions / replays figures for different types of game. As it is I think it's fair to say that the backlash against 3 was unusual, which tells us something, but the true scale of things is not something I've a clue about.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with the general gist of it. The only point I'd make is that if someone hates part of a story then they hate it, simple as that, whatever the reasons. Just very occasionally you might get a case where it was based on a genuine misunderstanding that, having being worked out, will change their minds, but even if the rationale turns out to be a bit iffy most of the time it doesn't change anything - it still completely failed to work for that person. It's emotion first, rationale second. The same is true for anything you like.

[Valmar]

As for the rest of your post, I agree with the general gist of it. The only point I'd make is that if someone hates part of a story then they hate it, simple as that, whatever the reasons. Just very occasionally you might get a case where it was based on a genuine misunderstanding that, having being worked out, will change their minds, but even if the rationale turns out to be a bit iffy most of the time it doesn't change anything - it still completely failed to work for that person. It's emotion first, rationale second. The same is true for anything you like.

 

True enough, poor wording on my part. My point was that a some of the complaints I've seen thrown at the ending aren't "real" complaints - as in, they're false assumptions or misconceptions. If I said I hated the ending for making us all grow fuzzy pink hair over our bodies... that would be a false reason to hate it. Because it isn't true. I might still hate it regardless, but my given reason would be invalid. It's clearly hated due to emotional bias and nothing 'real'. Some people who come on the forum to rage about the ending are in a similar boat, where they list there reasons for hating the ending but many, if not all, of them being inaccurate.

 

You can hate for that reason but that doesn't make the reason true or real.  So if someone was to say that I'd think "wow, I /WISH/ your misconception was the only problem with ending - then the ending would be perfect because nothing you complained about is true." I wish the problems were fictional. It would just mean all one would have to do to get a wonderful, perfect ending is to just correct their understanding. Sadly, the real issues persist. We don't have to rely on fictional anti-ending arguments to point blame at the ending. It supplies us with enough legitimate concerns to complain about.

 

Though I might be a bit bias here due to personal experience. I was a venomous, die-hard hater of the ending for quite some time before I really delved into the lore and came to realize that many of my complaints weren't actually real and that answers to my questions where there in the lore. Still not happy with the ending but not as against it as I used to be. If someone had just corrected me about my misconceptions sooner I could have saved myself over a year or bitterness.