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#276
Colonelkillabee

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Cowardism would only apply if they were hurting innocents to get to their superiors.  They're not.  It's *good cheap fun*.  It's cowardly only if they don't pick on each other or people who are bigger.  Since we know they fight against their equals, and as soldiers are bound not to fight against their masters, they are not cowardly.  Despicable, yes.  Cowardly, no. 

 

As a side note, the Spartans had a similar tradition whereby a slave was released and boys, in order to become full warriors, ordered to track them down and murder them.  This is, of course, despicable, but the Spartans were hardly a cowardly people.

Nope, hurting innocents in your own territory with no chance of punishment or anything, especially when purposefully drunk first, is cowardly always. No ifs ands or buts.


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#277
JJDXB

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Nope, hurting innocents in your own territory with no chance of punishment or anything, especially when purposefully drunk first, is cowardly always. No ifs ands or buts.

 

Why the stiputalation that it is only cowardly on your own territory?  Surely it would be cowardly no matter where they were?

Your argument means just about every single warrior before the 1800s was a coward, and every warrior society a society of cowards.  The Mongols, the Samurai, the Spartans.  The list goes on and on. 

 

In other words, according to you, a warrior could defeat and destroy gods and kings but if they murder in cold blood while doing so, they are instantly a coward with no thought to bravery?  I think that you associate bravery with good and cowardice with bad, but I don't feel that is the case.  Villains can be brave in their villainy too, you know.



#278
Master Warder Z_

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Bleh this talk of morality is nauseating.
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#279
Colonelkillabee

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snip

 

Because at least outside your own territory, you actually have to fight armies to do your raping and killing.

 

Chevalier pick on little poor oppressed elves who have no chance in hell to defend themselves, even if the chevalier are drunk. Cowards.

 

No ifs. No ands. No buts. If the drunk part wasn't there, then at least I could just say they were jerks. But that part especially makes them weenies.



#280
Colonelkillabee

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Bleh this talk of morality is nauseating.

No morality talk here, I am a fan of Vikings after all. I just think your chevalier are hypocrites and pansies.



#281
Master Warder Z_

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Non committal grunt.
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#282
Aimi

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So... yeah. Let's not get too attached to in-game prices.

 
Sage advice.

Anyway, purchase price of a slave wouldn't be useful for determining cost, because slaves had to be provided with food, shelter etc. in order to work, too.

The debate about whether slave labor was, in fact, relatively cheaper than free labor is at least two hundred years old; it was one of the first questions that economic historians ever considered, and they still haven't solved it.

On one level, the discussion is arguably irrelevant, because basic productivity models have shown that cheaper labor is cheaper precisely because it is less productive. Considering the relationship between labor costs and price without factoring in the different levels of production by various laborers is pointless. Now, there've been some historians who claimed that slave labor was in fact quite an expense for many owners, therefore justifying the claim of high productivity. And others have argued persuasively against it, and have also pointed out that owning a slave was not a purely financial calculation - there were elements of prestige and social worth, along with psychological power, to be derived in addition to the actual fruits of a slave's labor.

There's also the wild card of the labor source in and of itself. Many Tevinter imperial slaves were formerly free citizens of the Empire, but many were foreign slaves that would not be available to the Empire as free labor. Perhaps per-slave productivity is indeed worse and cheaper, but because the Empire can draw on a pool of slaves it would not otherwise have access to, it can still produce more than free competitors.

Feh. Point is, if you follow this all the way down you run into lore problems - as exist with any lore for any fictional setting ever, because expecting authors or game devs to be historians and economists and scientists with maximum competency in their fields is stupid - and you run into internal contradictions, and you can explain a variety of opposite things equally well (and equally poorly). Attempting to divine hidden facts behind the game lore is less "thought experiment" and more "intellectual self-pleasure".
 

As a side note, the Spartans had a similar tradition whereby a slave was released and boys, in order to become full warriors, ordered to track them down and murder them.  This is, of course, despicable, but the Spartans were hardly a cowardly people.


We've mentioned this a couple times in the thread. The krypteia wasn't like you describe - the slaves weren't "released" (they lived in Messenia, which was already their home, because the whole country was enslaved; where would they have gone?) and most Spartans didn't participate, such that it was more like an "elite" unit of slave murderers rather than a rite of passage for "boys to become full warriors".

I don't know that I would describe the Lakedaimonians as "cowardly", because I feel that applying personal attributes and traits to an entire society is stupid. But the practice of murdering slaves, with state sanction, is in my mind unquestionably a cowardly act.
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#283
Master Warder Z_

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I think applying a label like "coward" to a group that's more then willing to retake a city from the Qunari as they are to hunt Darkspawn is unquestionably a poor attempt at humor.

#284
MisterJB

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Nope, hurting innocents in your own territory with no chance of punishment or anything, especially when purposefully drunk first, is cowardly always. No ifs ands or buts.

No, it's not. You may not appreciate what they do but words have a meaning and you can't invent another.

Beating someone weaker than you is not cowardice. Running from someone is.



#285
TheRatPack55

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I feel like there's a huge logical fallacy revolving around the meaning of the term 'coward' happening here, but I'm too drunk, and therefore apparently cowardly, to delve into it at the moment.



#286
Colonelkillabee

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No, it's not. You may not appreciate what they do but words have a meaning and you can't invent another.

Beating someone weaker than you is not cowardice. Running from someone is.

Na, beating someone weaker than you is not cowardice, you're right. But beating someone weaker than you, because they can't defend themselves, that is cowardice. Especially when you have society on your side and they have no way to keep you from doing it. Pathetic.

 

And they were drunk too. When I hold up people as examples for honor and bravery, I tend to aim a little higher than guys that have to get drunk before committing their first act of oppression. Whether the drunk part is a celebratory thing or to make it easier to do, or both, it's weaksauce.


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#287
Colonelkillabee

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I feel like there's a huge logical fallacy revolving around the meaning of the term 'coward' happening here, but I'm too drunk, and therefore apparently cowardly, to delve into it at the moment.

If there is, I fully embrace my fallacy.



#288
dragonflight288

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Bleh this talk of morality is nauseating.

 

Then let's talk about the philosophy of the Chevalier's, shall we?  :P

 

I'm going to ask a few questions, probably one post at a time, and you (or any other Chevalier supporter I suppose) can answer them to the best of your ability. 

 

I promise to read everything you type and keep things as in context as I can, and try to think rationally about it according to what we consider the Chevalier philosophy is. 

 

Sound good?



#289
The Baconer

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Beating someone weaker than you is not cowardice.

 

Context. In this situation, it is absolutely cowardly. Taking it a step further to say Chevaliers as a whole are cowards is another matter.



#290
Eliastion

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I think there's an important distinction between "committing cowardly act" and "being a coward". It is, of course, blurred, because while skill tends to be appreciated based on best performance, moral qualities are evaluated based on worst performance. Basically, a sword-smith who can craft a legendary blade in 1 out of 10 attempts is a great smith while a person who in 1 "attempt" out of 10 fails to uphold her moral standard is morally bankrupt. Bravery/covardice falls into that gray area between ability and quality of character.

I personally believe that we can't call the Chevaliers cowards for one cowardly act, but that doesn't mean that the act is not cowardly, ESPECIALLY if we consider that some of them may have enough decency do not want to participate. But they still do, because of their fear of being stigmatized or even kicked out. And that is pretty much the definition of cowardice - they get drunk and do things they believe to be evil/wrong because they fear rejection that would come from hesitating. If this is not cowardice, nothing is.



#291
thesuperdarkone2

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Na, beating someone weaker than you is not cowardice, you're right. But beating someone weaker than you, because they can't defend themselves, that is cowardice. Especially when you have society on your side and they have no way to keep you from doing it. Pathetic.

 

And they were drunk too. When I hold up people as examples for honor and bravery, I tend to aim a little higher than guys that have to get drunk before committing their first act of oppression. Whether the drunk part is a celebratory thing or to make it easier to do, or both, it's weaksauce.

Don't forget how they can rape whoever they want. Chevaliers are douchebags, plain and simple.



#292
Ynqve

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"Guys, we just finished our super advanced training to become the most awesome and fearless soldiers in Thedas. Let's celebrate and show how badass we are by raping and murdering defenseless poor people!"

 

How is this not cowardice? Bravery would be standing up to your fellow Chevaliers and not participate in the initiation. Their "honor" is a joke, Chevaliers are just douchebags with an insane sense of entitlement. At least organizations like the Wardens admit to being assholes when the situation calls for it, Chevaliers hide behind their stupid code and the good graces of the nobility. 


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#293
Colonelkillabee

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I would concede with the point that committing a cowardly act does not make oneself a coward, if it were not the initiation ritual to their group, and used to show in my opinion, that they stand above all in society and can do whatever they want to almost anyone.

 

Basically, the chevaliers, their order, in my opinion is cowardly, especially those who use their position to take advantage of citizens in various ways, even if every last one isn't necessarily a coward. And admitted hyperbole.

 

Gaspard for instance, I do like. But I still stand by the statement that Chevalier as an organization is cowardly because of what they represent within their society. Which is just another exclusivity and elite status to hold over the lessers within Orlesian society through oppression and cowardly acts and bullying. That to me is their first and foremost role within Orlais.



#294
Eliastion

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(...)Their "honor" is a joke, Chevaliers are just douchebags with an insane sense of entitlement. (...)

I wanted to comment on this part, because one problem with honor - or any codes for that matter - is that the idea that everybody should be somehow treated more or less equally is a relatively new idea in our own world. Basically, codes of honor tend to include certain appropriate behaviors towards certain groups of people. A code of honor that applies only to equals (nobility) is nothing new, really. I'm no historian, but I'd risk stating that, actually, most codes of honor were like that, with crimes against peasants not factoring into person's status as a man of honor at all. I'm afraid that Chevaliers' take on honor (that is absolute but somehow doesn't mean you can't just rape that neat looking peasant girl and kill her brother if he (or she) dares protest) is not "a joke", but actually a pretty faithful representation of how things like those worked. Though I would appreciate someone better informed than me to confirm (or refute) this.

EDIT:
Although all that doesn't mean that Chevaliers' "honor" wouldn't be questionable for Fereldan nobility, for example, since in Ferelden there seems to exist that strange idea that commoners are people too.

#295
Master Warder Z_

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Commoners are people?!

#296
Eliastion

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Commoners are people?!

Those barbarians have some crazy ideas, no?

#297
Iakus

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I wanted to comment on this part, because one problem with honor - or any codes for that matter - is that the idea that everybody should be somehow treated more or less equally is a relatively new idea in our own world. Basically, codes of honor tend to include certain appropriate behaviors towards certain groups of people. A code of honor that applies only to equals (nobility) is nothing new, really. I'm no historian, but I'd risk stating that, actually, most codes of honor were like that, with crimes against peasants not factoring into person's status as a man of honor at all. I'm afraid that Chevaliers' take on honor (that is absolute but somehow doesn't mean you can't just rape that neat looking peasant girl and kill her brother if he (or she) dares protest) is not "a joke", but actually a pretty faithful representation of how things like those worked. Though I would appreciate someone better informed than me to confirm (or refute) this.

EDIT:
Although all that doesn't mean that Chevaliers' "honor" wouldn't be questionable for Fereldan nobility, for example, since in Ferelden there seems to exist that strange idea that commoners are people too.

While yes, there have always been gulfs between nobles and commoners, part of chivalric codes of honor have typically included mandates for the strong to defend the weak, uphold justice in the face of cruelty, and to maintain self-control and mercy (at least towards those not considered infidels)

 

Of course, this is all in theory.  Practice may be very different.  I'd be very curious to see what the code the chevaliers actually says regarding personal behavior.  



#298
Ynqve

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I wanted to comment on this part, because one problem with honor - or any codes for that matter - is that the idea that everybody should be somehow treated more or less equally is a relatively new idea in our own world. Basically, codes of honor tend to include certain appropriate behaviors towards certain groups of people. A code of honor that applies only to equals (nobility) is nothing new, really. I'm no historian, but I'd risk stating that, actually, most codes of honor were like that, with crimes against peasants not factoring into person's status as a man of honor at all. I'm afraid that Chevaliers' take on honor (that is absolute but somehow doesn't mean you can't just rape that neat looking peasant girl and kill her brother if he (or she) dares protest) is not "a joke", but actually a pretty faithful representation of how things like those worked. Though I would appreciate someone better informed than me to confirm (or refute) this.

EDIT:
Although all that doesn't mean that Chevaliers' "honor" wouldn't be questionable for Fereldan nobility, for example, since in Ferelden there seems to exist that strange idea that commoners are people too.

 

Sure. But the Chevaliers aren't exactly seen as paragons of virtue by everyone in game, Loghain being the prime example. And yeah, I still think that anyone willing to murder and rape innocent civilians for sport is lacking of any sense of honor. And I'm willing to bet that there have always been people angry with how the nobles kept getting away with things like that, it's just that they rarely had the power or influence to do something about it. Wanting to protect your friends and loved ones from murderous douchebags is not a modern concept. 



#299
Colonelkillabee

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Ignoring what someone says and attempts at "defeating" their argument but saying that you forgot where the part about killing unarmed people came from doesn't get you anywhere. Killabee condemned Chevaliers as worthless for getting drunk and going on killing spree in alienage AND he commended those insane farmers attacking Chevaliers in Ferelden. It's not that hard to notice that those are two different things. Especially after Killabee first said something about "men, women and children" (I don't think any children were attacking the Chevaliers) and then - after you somehow managed to misunderstand him - he explicitly said he was talking about the Alienage... How hard do you try to not get what he's talking about?...

Also, I have something for you: If I were to believe the wiki, it seems that Loghain made a bunch of elven servants and hookers tagging along with Maric's army into a commando that was killing Chevaliers. It seems that our elite knights had their arrow-stung asses handed to them by elven hookers. Repeatedly. So much for their badassery :P

 

So much win :lol: Loghain is the ****.

 

I completely missed this post.



#300
The Hierophant

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Still want Michel as a companion.