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[Cecilia]

Their honor amounts to ****** and **** then. Nothing at all.

 

We at least have Michel who feels honor bound to hunt down and kill Imshael to rectify his own mistakes - that's honor in at least some form. Honor is really a concept that is neutral to morality - like Zuko before he joins Aang in ATLA. Honor is simply an adherence to a code of conduct and not wavering from it (consistency if you will) so we can have villains with honor and heroes without. 

 

I'm not entirely sure how the Chevaliers justify testing their weapons on alienages within their honor code unless we engage with it in a perspective in which for them, elves are simply ... animals. Which is barbaric, but it's an order that is much more interesting for this barbarism and its flaws than as a shining order of perfect knights. (Products of our culture and all that~)

[The Baconer]

Specify which duel. The ones I am aware of were not rigged by him.

 

The duel between him and Michel to decide who controls the Eluvians.

 

 

Probably outside of the code of honor if it just a straight attack; probably within the code of honor if Gaspard had some pretense for the attack.

 

Elaborate.

 

 

Serving his liege so probably within the code of honor.

 

His liege is Celene, so already he broke one oath. The act itself was dishonorable in addition.

 

 

Hiding his heritage only proved to save lives well after the fact. Now you're arguing that he should have either broken his word to Briala at the end of the duel with Gaspard, or simply not have been a Chevalier in the first place.

Really though, these all sound like things to criticize morally, and the honor code of the Chevalier is probably not a moral code.

 

It has nothing to do with morality, I'm arguing from the perspective of the Chevalier code. Michel had no obligation to make or keep any promise to Briala (the code does not apply to non-nobility, let alone elves), especially one that supersedes his sworn duty to Celene.

[Colonelkillabee]

We at least have Michel who feels honor bound to hunt down and kill Imshael to rectify his own mistakes - that's honor in at least some form. Honor is really a concept that is neutral to morality - like Zuko before he joins Aang in ATLA. Honor is simply an adherence to a code of conduct and not wavering from it (consistency if you will) so we can have villains with honor and heroes without. 

 

I'm not entirely sure how the Chevaliers justify testing their weapons on alienages within their honor code unless we engage with it in a perspective in which for them, elves are simply ... animals. Which is barbaric, but it's an order that is much more interesting for this barbarism and its flaws than as a shining order of perfect knights. (Products of our culture and all that~)

 

Yes, I'd much rather have them be this way in game than some maby pamby group of do gooders. I'm certainly glad for that. Just speaking in the role of someone outside of Orlais and who despises them.

 

But yes, their exception to the rule of honor towards elves does remind me of the founding fathers of america and their "all men are created equal" crap... But they also treat their own like this as well, raping men's wives. It seems more like their honor is reserved for nobility and those with the "in" crowd...

 

Michel does somewhat redeem himself though in my eyes at the end in DA I.

[MisterJB]

Well I'm not Orlesian, and neither is anyone here, so I couldn't care less to be honest. Orlais in general can burn, and I know Ferelden's on board with that sentiment.

 

 

If they find Chevalier honorable by their own twisted culture, then that's all the more reason for me to hate them.

Not if they're smart. This game made it quite clear that the fate of Orlais is the fate of the South. If it falls, so does Ferelden, Nevarra, the Free Marches, etc.

[Cecilia]

Not if they're smart. This game made it quite clear that the fate of Orlais is the fate of the South. If it falls, so does Ferelden, Nevarra, the Free Marches, etc.

 

I'm a bit of a Francophile, so I love Orlais. But more objectively, it's such an interesting culture with the mask-fetish and back stabby-ness. It's not a pillar of moral rectitude, but it's fascinating to say the least.

 

Though, OT and all, but does anyone ever wonder how bad the skin of some Orlesians must be? You wear masks all day everyday - it never gets to breathe!

[Colonelkillabee]

Not if they're smart. This game made it quite clear that the fate of Orlais is the fate of the South. If it falls, so does Ferelden, Nevarra, the Free Marches, etc.

Not really, power vacuums, plus the tevinter warring with the Qunari makes sure that no one would really just be able to take all that territory uncontested. And it's not likely that a power like Orlais could just be completely wiped out like that anyway. Unrealistic, even for tevinter and the qunari together.

[Steelcan]

The duel between him and Michel to decide who controls the Eluvians.

 

 

Elaborate.

 

 

His liege is Celene, so already he broke one oath. The act itself was dishonorable in addition.

 

As i recall Gaspard was unaware of the help was receiving in it

 

A sneak attack on peace proceedings is iffy certainly, but as long as he doesn't start slaughtering everyone inside he should be ok I'd imagine

 

Deciding that she shouldn't be liege is not dishonorable, unless we know specifically what the chevalier code says on this we can't assume one way or the other

[The Baconer]

As i recall Gaspard was unaware of the help was receiving in it

 

Right, but after the revelation that Michel was being hexed he admits he would have been fine taking it regardless.

 

 

A sneak attack on peace proceedings is iffy certainly, but as long as he doesn't start slaughtering everyone inside he should be ok I'd imagine.

 

Sure, right.

 

Make a big deal out of Celene insulting Chevalier honor and curtseying Ferelden, and then have some Fereldan thugs spill noble blood at negotiations. What is honor in the face of convenience, after all.

 

 

Deciding that she shouldn't be liege is not dishonorable

 

It is until you get a new liege. His conduct after the fact was so dishonorable that he commits suicide after being spurned by Gaspard.

[Steelcan]

Right, but after the revelation that Michel was being hexed he admits he would have been fine taking it regardless.

 

 

Sure, right.

 

Make a big deal out of Celene insulting Chevalier honor and curtseying Ferelden, and then have some Fereldan thugs spill noble blood at negotiations. What is honor in the face of convenience, after all.

 

 

It is until you get a new liege. His conduct after the fact was so dishonorable that he commits suicide after being spurned by Gaspard.

The difference between known help and unknown I guess

 

I took it that he had some Ferelden mercenaries to supplement his own troops there, not exclusively doglords

 

then he chose a poor time to start his little plan

[The Baconer]

The difference between known help and unknown I guess

 

The difference shouldn't matter in an "honorable" bout, because whether or not it was known is beside the point. Imagine someone at the Grand Tourney claiming "I swear on my Chevalier honor, I had no idea my blade was poisoned". Maybe they truly didn't, but they will be denied any winnings and glory regardless.

 

 

I took it that he had some Ferelden mercenaries to supplement his own troops there, not exclusively doglords

 

Doesn't matter.

 

 

then he chose a poor time to start his little plan

 

The problem, for him and his allies, was that he got caught.

 

Honestly, there's really no reason for anyone outside the Order's little bubble to even associate the term "honor" with Chevaliers.

[Ashagar]

I suspect Chevaliers with serious following of their codes of honor tend to die directly from the game or indirectly in exile but in general I suspect what's considered honorable in Orlais wouldn't be considered honorable anywhere else including Tevinter.

[Steelcan]

The difference shouldn't matter in an "honorable" bout, because whether or not it was known is beside the point. Imagine someone at the Grand Tourney claiming "I swear on my Chevalier honor, I had no idea my blade was poisoned". Maybe they truly didn't, but they will be denied any winnings and glory regardless.

 

 

Doesn't matter.

 

 

The problem, for him and his allies, was that he got caught.

 

Honestly, there's really no reason for anyone outside the Order's little bubble to even associate the term "honor" with Chevaliers.

It depends on what's considered "fair" by their standards, without the actual code in front of us, we don't know if accepting outside help is dishonorable or not.

 

Yeah it does, its the difference between selling out your own ideals, and just padding your numbers

 

Do we even know if Gaspard was his ally?  Seems to me like Gaspard didn't want to touch this with a thirty foot pole.  Sure Fereldens probably have issues with it, but they likely have different standards of honor.

[The Baconer]

It depends on what's considered "fair" by their standards, without the actual code in front of us, we don't know if accepting outside help is dishonorable or not.

 

Why the **** wouldn't it be in this context?

 

 

Yeah it does, its the difference between selling out your own ideals, and just padding your numbers

 

He's already selling out in more ways than one. Being the de-facto leader of the self-processed best fighting force on the planet and needing dog lords to finish his fight is only the most memorable in this instance.

 

 

Do we even know if Gaspard was his ally?  Seems to me like Gaspard didn't want to touch this with a thirty foot pole.  Sure Fereldens probably have issues with it, but they likely have different standards of honor.

 

He was a fellow Chevalier on Gaspard's side of the war. Of course, Gaspard himself is irrelevant in this situation; it was provided as (another) example of a Chevalier casting off their honor as requested.

[Walrider]

Yea, because every Chevalier is like that. 

 

You have to go on a killing spree in an alienage before you get your feathers, man. Not every chevalier may want to be a murderer, but none of them have a choice about becoming one.

[Steelcan]

Why the **** wouldn't it be in this context?

 

 

 

He's already selling out in more ways than one. Being the de-facto leader of the self-processed best fighting force on the planet and needing dog lords to finish his fight is only the most memorable in this instance.

 

 

 

He was a fellow Chevalier on Gaspard's side of the war. Of course, Gaspard himself is irrelevant in this situation; it was provided as (another) example of a Chevalier casting off their honor as requested.

Because there is nothing shameful in accepting help?

 

And padding your numbers is not anything particularly noteworthy, it'd be weird if he didn't hire some mercenaries

 

I thought he did this before the war started, since Blackwall has been a "warden" for quite a while

[Obadiah]

The duel between him and Michel to decide who controls the Eluvians.
...

Gaspard was not aware of the rigging of the duel. If he had won, his honor would be intact.
 

...
Elaborate.
...

If he had managed to get Celene to insult him, he would have been justified in defending his honor. If he got Celene's guards to make a move in him first, he would have been justified in his coup. I'm sure there are other justifications that would put a coup within the Chevalier code of honor.
 

...
His liege is Celene, so already he broke one oath. The act itself was dishonorable in addition.
...

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that otherwise all of the Chevaliers would be on Celene's side, and they're not. 
 

...
It has nothing to do with morality, I'm arguing from the perspective of the Chevalier code. Michel had no obligation to make or keep any promise to Briala (the code does not apply to non-nobility, let alone elves), especially one that supersedes his sworn duty to Celene.

I'm going to have to defer to Ser Michel's interpretation of the Chevalier code of honor on this, which I'm pretty sure he knows better than any of us. Seems to me that he was in fact bound by his word to a commoner over his duty to Celene.

[The Baconer]

Because there is nothing shameful in accepting help?

 

In a duel that is supposed to be a one-on-one? Yes there is.

 

 

And padding your numbers is not anything particularly noteworthy, it'd be weird if he didn't hire some mercenaries

 

If we're ignoring context, sure.

 

 

I thought he did this before the war started, since Blackwall has been a "warden" for quite a while

 

He did not.

 

 

Gaspard was not aware of the rigging of the duel. If he had won, his honor would be intact.

 

At least, according to Gaspard. Whether or not outside meddling brings one's honor into question relies entirely on the good word of the benefactor... how convenient. 

 

 

If he had managed to get Celene to insult him, he would have been justified in defending his honor.  [...] I'm sure there are other justifications that would put a coup within the Chevalier code of honor.

 

Which is not the same as ordering a surprise attack on the palace, which was the plan. Yes, I too am sure there's quite the myriad of justifications a Chevalier can make to preserve their honor in any situation.

 

 

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that otherwise all of the Chevaliers would be on Celene's side, and they're not.

 

That would be operating on the assumption that every Chevalier is honorable, even by the standards of their own made-up code, which they aren't.

 

 

I'm going to have to defer to Ser Michel's interpretation of the Chevalier code of honor on this, which I'm pretty sure he knows better than any of us. Seems to me that he was in fact bound by his word to a commoner over his duty to Celene.

 

No, he was not bound by any code to commit treason. It was his own personal code that lead him to make the promise in the first place, a move that he was not obligated to do by any Orlesian law or Chevalier code.

[dragonflight288]

Quick questions to Chevalier supporters. 

 

1. What is "the greater good" based on what we know from the perspective of the Chevalier Code?

 

2. To whom are the chevalier's, by their code, most obligated to defend?

 

3. What is the purpose of the initiation by killing elves in the alienages?

[Obadiah]

...
That would be operating on the assumption that every Chevalier is honorable, even by the standards of their own made-up code, which they aren't.
...

That's wrong. They are holding to their code of honor. It just doesn't mean that they all side with Empress Celene in the game of Orlais.
 

...
No, he was not bound by any code to commit treason. It was his own personal code that lead him to make the promise in the first place, a move that he was not obligated to do by any Orlesian law or Chevalier code.

People make promises. When Ser Michel made the promise to Briala to keep his secret, a secret that if known would mean that he would not longer be a Chevalier (and would probably be executed), it was to Celene's personal spymaster, and by the Chevalier code he was bound to keep his word and to later commit treason.

[The Baconer]

That's wrong. They are holding to their code of honor. It just doesn't mean that they all side with Empress Celene in the game of Orlais.

 

It is surely interpreted both ways, depending entirely on which side of the war they are on.

 

 

People make promises. When Ser Michel made the promise to Briala to keep his secret, a secret that if known would mean that he would not longer be a Chevalier (and would probably be executed), it was to Celene's personal spymaster, and by the Chevalier code he was bound to keep his word and to later commit treason.

 

No promise supersedes his sworn duty to the crown and the nation of Orlais. If that means letting the secret go public, so be it.

[Obadiah]

It is surely interpreted both ways, depending entirely on which side of the war they are on.
...

It doesn't sound like it. Gaspard never accuses Michel of dishonor, nor does Michel accuse Gaspard.
 

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No promise supersedes his sworn duty to the crown and the nation of Orlais.
...

How do you know that? Cuz it sounds like his promise did just that.
 

...
If that means letting the secret go public, so be it.

Keeping his promise actually revealed his secret, and made him commit treason, and turned him into a fugitive.

[The Baconer]

It doesn't sound like it. Gaspard never accuses Michel of dishonor, nor does Michel accuse Gaspard.

 

Michel? Yes he does. To Celene, anyway.

 

 

How do you know that? Cuz it sounds like his promise did just that.

 

Gaspard has no obligation to spare the captured scout from torture or even grant him a duel to the death, but he does just that.

 

 

Keeping his promise actually made his secret public, and turned him into a fugitive.

 

Because he chose to admit it himself, in addition.

[Cecilia]

Quick questions to Chevalier supporters. 

 

1. What is "the greater good" based on what we know from the perspective of the Chevalier Code?

 

2. To whom are the chevalier's, by their code, most obligated to defend?

 

3. What is the purpose of the initiation by killing elves in the alienages?

 

I think about it this way~

 

They're almost like a fraternity (actually they basically are) - they have a set of decent, uncontroversial values and are founded by (probably) decent people, but time passes and they drift further and further from their roots and they even develop sick hazing rituals. There isn't much difference between what probably happened to the Chevaliers and what we know happened to the original Inquisition, the Seekers, the Templars, the Chantry, the Grey Wardens, etc. That doesn't mean that the foundation of the Chevaliers isn't a noble or even moral one (we see Michel de Chevin at least endeavoring to live up to those perceived values in DA:I)

 

If you've read the ASoIaF series, they're really a mirror of the Kingsguard - there's no reason to say that the Kingsguard is inherently terrible or immoral simply because some of the men who are part of it do terrible/immoral things or the Kingsguard at the current point in time does not adhere to its original tenets.

 

That aside~ they're a pretty interesting military force and sort of romantic  

 

I don't think Chevaliers are particularly involved in any way with the greater good - they're knights who are sworn to protect the empire of Orlais. 

[Addai]

Kingsguard don't go around murdering and raping except when a bad king is in charge ordering them to do it.

[dragonflight288]

I think about it this way~

 

They're almost like a fraternity (actually they basically are) - they have a set of decent, uncontroversial values and are founded by (probably) decent people, but time passes and they drift further and further from their roots and they even develop sick hazing rituals. There isn't much difference between what probably happened to the Chevaliers and what we know happened to the original Inquisition, the Seekers, the Templars, the Chantry, the Grey Wardens, etc. That doesn't mean that the foundation of the Chevaliers isn't a noble or even moral one (we see Michel de Chevin at least endeavoring to live up to those perceived values in DA:I)

 

If you've read the ASoIaF series, they're really a mirror of the Kingsguard - there's no reason to say that the Kingsguard is inherently terrible or immoral simply because some of the men who are part of it do terrible/immoral things or the Kingsguard at the current point in time does not adhere to its original tenets.

 

That aside~ they're a pretty interesting military force and sort of romantic

 

I don't think Chevaliers are particularly involved in any way with the greater good - they're knights who are sworn to protect the empire of Orlais. 

 

I'm trying to get into the philosophy of the Chevalier's code itself.

 

And all philosophy determines what is "the good" to uphold. For example, a hedonist would see "pleasure" or "bliss" as the good to uphold, and anything that takes it away as "not-good" even if it isn't actually "evil" in their eyes.

 

1. And so, to a person trying to follow the Chevalier's Code in modern Orlas, what is "the good" they are trying to achieve by following the code? Defending the weak? Serving the crown? Defend the country? What is the ideal chevalier doing when following the code?

 

2. And should a Chevalier be in a position where they have to choose between choosing to defend a village or save the reining monarch, who then, would the Chevalier be more obligated to defend according to their code?

 

3. And finally, what is the purpose of killing elves in an alienage as part of an initiation ritual in regards to the chevalier code itself?

 

I'm focusing less on the people and the military order and its members actions, and trying to focus on the code itself, and what the code dictates they actually should do compared to what they actually do.