460 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

We don't know a whole lot about them so it's a shame that people are latching onto the stuff that paints them in a terrible light only to then conveniently ignore the stuff that redeems them. Why does everything in these debates have to revolve around extremes? The Chevaliers have a dark side. Big deal - it's nothing we haven't seen from every other major organisation within the setting thus far.

It's not really just a "dark side." Given the nature of the initiation ritual, every last chevalier is bona fide evil. Repentant ones would leave.

[Bleachrude]

I think it's another case of Bioware TRYING to have its cake and eat it too.

 

 

Bioware WANTS to have the knighty order that has bad parts but at the same time can be seen in a good light but for some reason, they just can't seem able to do this and instead the group simply is bad all the way through.... 

[Ashagar]

It could be deliberate values dissidence I suppose coupled with a flawed organization.

[Addai]

1. As I stated in my analysis/understanding of the Chevalier code, their loyalty is to the empire of Orlais, not to whoever is seated upon the throne of Orlais. So if the Chevaliers genuinely believed that Celene was not fit to rule Orlais and no longer put the interests of the empire first, then it does follow that they are free to seek a leader of the right lineage who would be fit to rule. It is also stated in DA:I that Gaspard is actually the intended original legitimate ruler of Orlais and Celene was able to take the throne only through politically out-maneuvering him. I doubt that the Chevaliers would have defaulted to Gaspard if he didn't have a legitimate claim to the throne.

Gaspard primarily uses Celene's support of elves- and by this I mean, offering them a minimal shot at education and participation in society, and rumors that she and Briala are lovers- to topple Celene. So the basis of their estimation of her unfitness to rule is primarily racism and classism. Which goes back to their "code" and its foundations- that they exist to preserve the social pecking order.
 

I mean I doubt all of the Chevaliers are like "yaylet'sgomurderelvesyespls" - in a sense they're following orders as much as the KG are (none of which makes anything either group does right ofc)

Around the common folk, they aren't taking orders, they give them. Like ordering the merchant woman you can meet in Denerim to submit sexually or die. What military objective does that serve?
 

Also I think it's a bit wrong to debate the Chevaliers purely in terms of "are they moral?" because they're more of a military force with a code of honor than a Templar/Seeker-equivalent. I'm never going to argue they're moral positive people, but I think there's a solid philosophical foundation there at the heart of it (honor does not preclude tactics, and glory is not won through foolishness) that can definitely be salvaged.

They're always prattling about their honor, so yes, I do think it's legitimate to evaluate them as moral agents.

[Han Shot First]

It's not really just a "dark side." Given the nature of the initiation ritual, every last chevalier is bona fide evil. Repentant ones would leave.

 

That's only if every word what we've been told about the ritual so far is true, which may not be the case. It only gets brief mentions in the game, and we've already seen how 'facts' that were supposedly known were overturned by later lore. (see the fall of Arlathan)

[dragonflight288]

 

Cecelia wrote....

snip

 

Thanks for going along with my mental exercise. 

 

One thing I learned while taking a philosophy class in college is that the "good" of a particular philosophy does not even mean "good vs evil" as we see it today and actually may not have anything to do with morality at all. Rather, the "good" is something seen as desirable by that particular philosophy and actions are achieved to attain it. 

 

Plato believed in abstract throught being more real the the items in real life. The desk you're sitting at isn't real. The abstract idea of making it is the real thing, the desk itself is just an imitation. 

 

Sagacious Tien in Jade Empire brought in the philosophies of harmony and discord, neither seen by their practitioners as right or wrong but more of knowing one's place in the world and seeking to move past your station, letting strength decide what is best. I found that game and the philosophy discussed very, very interesting. 

 

So again, thank you for working with me on this. Like I said, I don't think of them as moral, but I was trying to understand their code of honor. One of our companions in Jade Empire was described as this. "Zu is an honorable man. Not a good man, but an honorable one." Thinking of that helps me differentiate the difference between morally upright and honorable. 

 

Of course, in the case of discussing the chevalier's, we the gamers have our own codes of honor based on our own backgrounds, so to one person they would see the chevaliers as lacking all honor because their own personal honor code does not allow their actions to be seen as honorable. 

 

Which is why when it comes to various philosophies, everything remains theories because nothing is universal and equally applicable to everyone. 

[Ryriena]

Honor codes are subjective to people as such things are just bule prints on how to live by their rules. The honor code is negated by the fact to become one you have to kill civilians in the Alienage. Plus the fact the laws have it were one of them could basicly rape anyone they wanted and get away with said deed.

These things tend to lead to someone thinking that a man can be honorable with such a code, in a sense it laughable to think about it this way.

[dragonflight288]

Gaspard primarily uses Celene's support of elves- and by this I mean, offering them a minimal shot at education and participation in society, and rumors that she and Briala are lovers- to topple Celene. So the basis of their estimation of her unfitness to rule is primarily racism and classism. Which goes back to their "code" and its foundations- that they exist to preserve the social pecking order.
 
Around the common folk, they aren't taking orders, they give them. Like ordering the merchant woman you can meet in Denerim to submit sexually or die. What military objective does that serve?
 
They're always prattling about their honor, so yes, I do think it's legitimate to evaluate them as moral agents.

 

1. Well, technically Gaspard became disillusioned with her because he didn't think her diplomacy would resolve the mage/templar conflict and felt she was unfit to solving the war. He merely used the elves as a way to weaken her politically. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Gaspard, but I also don't like Celene, so I can criticize both.

 

2. It doesn't serve any military objective. I think this ties into the fact that you have to be noble or of noble birth to even qualify to train as a Chevalier. It's like an upgrade of what Sergeant Kylon in Denerim has to deal with. He's given a legion of ba**ards to command. "A decent pay, uniform, no expectations," and such, as well as the expectation of explaining "to their noble fathers that being a guard is actually dangerous." But all he has to worry about is "dicing, the odd bit of drool or yelling at them too loudly and watching go sob tears in their courtesans bosoms while he gets chewed out by their noble fathers."

 

I think it has less to do with them be chevaliers and them being nobles and expecting things handed to them on a silver platter, and many of them abuse the power they do have knowing they can get away with it because of their position. Such a thing is not limited to Orlais and its Chevaliers. (Vaughn, *cough*)

 

Now, I'm not defending them. I dislike the Chevaliers for the exact same reasons, but I also dislike most nobles we meet in the games as well. 

 

Honor codes are subjective to people as such things are just bule prints on how to live by their rules. The honor code is negated by the fact to become one you have to kill civilians in the Alienage. Plus the fact the laws have it were one of them could basicly rape anyone they wanted and get away with said deed.

 

That's the thing. It's in the alienages. Kendals in Kirkwall targeted elves and no one did a thing about it because it was elves. Elves already are seen as lesser to humans by virtue of their ears. In many instances being a servant is the highest they are expected to rise. Iona in Cousland's origin story says she didn't want her daughter Amethyne getting ideas of rising above lady-in-waiting because elves normally couldn't even get that high and she was fortunate that she did. 

 

It's not the chevalier's targeting the alienages that's the problem. It's the entire perception of most countries that elves are lesser than humans, and thus have less rights. It's the widespread racism of humans that's the problem. 

[Cecilia]

Thanks for going along with my mental exercise. 

 

One thing I learned while taking a philosophy class in college is that the "good" of a particular philosophy does not even mean "good vs evil" as we see it today and actually may not have anything to do with morality at all. Rather, the "good" is something seen as desirable by that particular philosophy and actions are achieved to attain it. 

 

Plato believed in abstract throught being more real the the items in real life. The desk you're sitting at isn't real. The abstract idea of making it is the real thing, the desk itself is just an imitation. 

 

Sagacious Tien in Jade Empire brought in the philosophies of harmony and discord, neither seen by their practitioners as right or wrong but more of knowing one's place in the world and seeking to move past your station, letting strength decide what is best. I found that game and the philosophy discussed very, very interesting. 

 

So again, thank you for working with me on this. Like I said, I don't think of them as moral, but I was trying to understand their code of honor. One of our companions in Jade Empire was described as this. "Zu is an honorable man. Not a good man, but an honorable one." Thinking of that helps me differentiate the difference between morally upright and honorable. 

 

Of course, in the case of discussing the chevalier's, we the gamers have our own codes of honor based on our own backgrounds, so to one person they would see the chevaliers as lacking all honor because their own personal honor code does not allow their actions to be seen as honorable. 

 

Which is why when it comes to various philosophies, everything remains theories because nothing is universal and equally applicable to everyone. 

 

No problem~ It was a really fun discussion and definitely got me thinking more deeply about them than "ohai they're pretty and make good bodiceripperfodder 4 scarves out of 5"

 

What kept flashing to mind for me was the Japanese imperial army during WWII - I'm Chinese, so yes, there is at least some bias here - the soldiers committed pretty horrific atrocities across Asia, but they were also committed to a very strict code of honor which bound them to loyalty to the emperor. I see the Chevaliers in almost the same light - honorable monsters so to speak - yet at the same time, we also have Michel and his actions in DA:I and he becomes almost the Cullen to the Chevaliers, someone who chooses to exemplify what they could be as opposed to what they are. (Jaime feels~)

[Eliastion]

Honor codes are subjective to people as such things are just bule prints on how to live by their rules. The honor code is negated by the fact to become one you have to kill civilians in the Alienage. Plus the fact the laws have it were one of them could basicly rape anyone they wanted and get away with said deed.

These things tend to lead to someone thinking that a man can be honorable with such a code, in a sense it laughable to think about it this way.

First part of what you say is completely opposite to what you follow wit. 

If honor is subjective (it is, though not to person but rather to the society/organization adhering to this particular code) then killing civilians or being above punishment for any actions taken against commoners can't negate honor.

[Cecilia]

That's only if every word what we've been told about the ritual so far is true, which may not be the case. It only gets brief mentions in the game, and we've already seen how 'facts' that were supposedly known were overturned by later lore. (see the fall of Arlathan)

 

This is explicitly stated in The Masked Empire, I believe, where you have Michel participating in the ritual.

[Obadiah]

The Chevalier honor code seems to be a standard to be held only among themselves, nobles, and any others they feel deserve such treatment. It does not apply to commoners (or elves or demons), but a Chevalier can selectively apply to it certain commoners.

I think that's the way honor codes for Knights usually applied during medieval times.

[Han Shot First]

This is explicitly stated in The Masked Empire, I believe, where you have Michel participating in the ritual.

 

Orlais is a vast Empire, and one character's experience might not necessarily be representative of every local chapter of the Chevaliers or of the shenanigans that go on in every alienage. Just as there are differences between various chapters of Grey Wardens it could be possible that there are differences between Chevaliers in Val Royeux and Ghislain, for example. That ritual may very well not be carried in the same manner in every corner of the country.

 

Or maybe not. In either case I don't think the series has said enough about the Chevaliers to be certain. I would hope though that if the series delves into more lore or backstory on the Chevaliers, that it would paint a slightly more complex picture. I would find that more interesting than having the whole lot of them being cartoonish one note mustache-twirling cacklers. 

[dragonflight288]

The Chevalier honor code seems to be a standard to be held only among themselves, nobles, and any others they feel deserve such treatment. It does not apply to commoners (or elves or demons), but a Chevalier can selectively apply to it certain commoners.

I think that's the way honor codes for Knights usually applied during medieval times.

 

I think the only time in any written history or legends where it the honor code applied to all, especially the commoners, is the legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. And even in those legends it was limited because many of the knights became disillusioned and didn't want to keep following the standards set by Arthur, like Mordred who thought the ideals Arthur was applying were just nuts.

[dragonflight288]

Orlais is a vast Empire, and one character's experience might not necessarily be representative of every local chapter of the Chevaliers or of the shenanigans that go on in every alienage. Just as there are differences between various chapters of Grey Wardens it could be possible that there are differences between Chevaliers in Val Royeux and Ghislain, for example. 

 

Or maybe not. In either case I don't think the series has said enough about the Chevaliers to be certain. I would hope though that if the series delves into more lore or backstory on the Chevaliers, that it would paint a slightly more complex picture. I would find that more interesting than having the whole lot of them being cartoonish one note mustache-twirling cacklers. 

 

There's also a dagger with the item description that it was used by an elf to fight back against the cheavliers who routinely raided the alienage. 

[Han Shot First]

There's also a dagger with the item description that it was used by an elf to fight back against the cheavliers who routinely raided the alienage. 

 

The ritual certainly exists.

 

What is less certain if it's always carried out with an 'any elf will do' mindset, or if some Chevaliers are targeting known troublemakers. Even if morality doesn't factor into it, the latter would be far more pragmatic. It's better to remove rabble-rousers and criminals than some lord's maid on her way to work.

[dragonflight288]

The ritual certainly exists.

 

What is less certain if it's always carried out with an 'any elf will do' mindset, or if some Chevaliers are targeting known troublemakers. Even if morality doesn't factor into it, the latter would be far more pragmatic. It's better to remove rabble-rousers and criminals than some lord's maid on her way to work.

 

If the chevalier's are drunk, I don't think they'd be in a state of mind to target known trouble makers.

 

I think Michel got drunk just so he could go through with it since he is half-elf and is hiding his heritage so he could become a chevalier. 

 

But considering that the majority of people see elves as lesser by virtue of being elves, and chevaliers HAVE to be nobles to join the order, I think most of them don't care one whit if the elf is actually a criminal or not. 

[Ryriena]

Yes it can negate your honor, if said honor code allows you to kill civilians and rape woman at random. Since such honor codes are subjective to humans moral codes then in a sense they are not that honorable to begin with if we go by normal humans standards and how they veiw their own moral codes.

[Obadiah]

Orlais is a vast Empire, and one character's experience might not necessarily be representative of every local chapter of the Chevaliers or of the shenanigans that go on in every alienage. Just as there are differences between various chapters of Grey Wardens it could be possible that there are differences between Chevaliers in Val Royeux and Ghislain, for example. That ritual may very well not be carried in the same manner in every corner of the country.
...

I thought Masked Empire did a pretty good job of presenting the complexities of the Chevaliers. Where it gets reduced to "they have no honor" or "their honor is worthless" is in this forum.

[Han Shot First]

I thought Masked Empire did a pretty good job of presenting the complexities of the Chevaliers. Where it gets reduced to "they have no honor" or "their honor is worthless" is in this forum.

 

I think some of Blackwall's backstory hints at them not all being black hats as well. The Chevalier at the Grand Tourney in the Free Marches puts aside his own ambitions to help Blackwall win it, and later offers to make Blackwall his squire...an offer that would have would put Blackwall (a commoner and a foreigner) potentially on a path to knighthood. That was chivalrous behavior towards someone well below his social station. 

[The Baconer]

I thought Masked Empire did a pretty good job of presenting the complexities of the Chevaliers. Where it gets reduced to "they have no honor" or "their honor is worthless" is in this forum.

 

It just about mirrors their reputation among the majority in Orlais, then.

[Addai]

I thought Masked Empire did a pretty good job of presenting the complexities of the Chevaliers. Where it gets reduced to "they have no honor" or "their honor is worthless" is in this forum.

Really? Because TME solidified my impression of Orlesian nobility as terrible people and the chevaliers as the guardians of the Game that keeps them all in a cycle of vicious murder and oppression.

[Ryriena]

My opionion came from several NPC in da2 were they tell of the rules chevaliers were allowed via their knighthood ie allowed to have sex with any woman they want since this can allow rape of said woman.

[Eliastion]

Yes it can negate your honor, if said honor code allows you to kill civilians and rape woman at random. Since such honor codes are subjective to humans moral codes then in a sense they are not that honorable to begin with if we go by normal humans standards and how they veiw their own moral codes.

How I love BS like "normal human standards". Those are YOUR standards, perhaps standards of our culture as a whole, though details are bound to differ even within it. They're certainly not universal standards in modern world. But, yeah, "normal human standards", for all the societies in all history of mankind. 'Cause it's not like it was ever considered honorable and ethical to beat your wife if she was disobedient. And it's (and was always) so unheard of that a woman gets killed by her own family (or a mob) as punishment for cheating on her husband. Or getting raped, for that matter. Because letting her live would dishonor the husband and whole family.

 

You see, the problem is that any attempt of judging anything as inherently and universally good or evil, moral or immoral, it's basically pushing your own values on others. You can judge a person when you're within one culture and one ethical system, but when someone comes from another culture, or better yet: when you try to judge entire culture, it's no longer a judgement of how moral something is. It's an affirmation of your ethical code being superior to theirs. How can your standards be "normal human standards" if they don't believe them to be? Unless, of course, you want to say that they're not normal or not humans?

Ok, but we're delving too deep into philosophy. The thing is that honor is a bit easier to approach than morality (though they're indeed very similar, both boiling down to some codes of conduct) in that honor is generally more formalized and doesn't by its very nature try to apply to everyone. In this case, the only people bound by Chevalier Honor Code are Chevaliers. You can (that is, you could if it had been revealed anywhere) look at their code and at particular Chevalier and judge whether he is being honorable or not. But when you try and apply any wider standards, you're back to discussing ethics. Which is futile, since if there are any actual "normal human standards" they would be those basic values common to all the ethical codes, ever. And how many such things can you find, really?

[Iakus]

Honor codes are subjective to people as such things are just bule prints on how to live by their rules. The honor code is negated by the fact to become one you have to kill civilians in the Alienage. Plus the fact the laws have it were one of them could basicly rape anyone they wanted and get away with said deed.

These things tend to lead to someone thinking that a man can be honorable with such a code, in a sense it laughable to think about it this way.

I'd say the application of honor codes is subjective.

 

I mean, I'm reasonably certain that the chevalier code of conduct doesn't say "thou shalt induct thy new recruits with the killig of elves in the local alienage"  And in any case, we do not know if such is widely practiced among the chevaliers to begin with.  It may very well be an abuse of the "perks" to being a chevalier have led to the corruption of a highly esteemed organization.

 

THough we've had instances where Gaspard's actions are explained by following the code of honor, I'd be curious as to what the actual demands are.  I mean, we know they don't condone torture, but what else is there?