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[Iakus]

Yet they broke their word to serve the crown by joining Gaspard in his rebellion against said crown. 

 

Kind of a grey area.  Their oaths are to "the empire" not "the emperor/empress" Save perhaps individual oaths such as Ser Michel as Celene's champion.

 

It seems Gaspard actually has a stronger claim to the throne than Celene.  At least by rules of inheritance.  Of course, Celene manipulated the Council of Heralds into naming her the heir instead.  And this is better than two decades later.  Still, they may have justified their rebellion as serving the "true emperor" and to save Orlais from a "usurper"

[Cecilia]

Orlais is a vast Empire, and one character's experience might not necessarily be representative of every local chapter of the Chevaliers or of the shenanigans that go on in every alienage. Just as there are differences between various chapters of Grey Wardens it could be possible that there are differences between Chevaliers in Val Royeux and Ghislain, for example. That ritual may very well not be carried in the same manner in every corner of the country.

 

Or maybe not. In either case I don't think the series has said enough about the Chevaliers to be certain. I would hope though that if the series delves into more lore or backstory on the Chevaliers, that it would paint a slightly more complex picture. I would find that more interesting than having the whole lot of them being cartoonish one note mustache-twirling cacklers. 

 

I don't really think the Chevaliers are villains - they're not Cornflakes by any stretch of the imagination and the fact that a reasonable proportion of them need to get roaring drunk before they do what they do at the alienage shows they're as human as any of us. Their actions, however, are indeed monstrous, as human actions, even generally-falling-in-the-balance-of-good humans' actions, can often be. 

 

I'm tired of arguing the whole honor =/= morality thing at this point so believe what you want about that (directed broadly at the thread) but I think the best way to look at it is Chevaliers are humans with all of their shitty humanness and amazing humanness who are part of an amoral organization that teaches callousness and expediency (the code of the Chevaliers is not the code of chivalry - they are actively taught "dirty fighting") for the sake of a greater existence (the Orlesian empire). 

[Aimi]

I'm tired of arguing the whole honor =/= morality thing at this point so believe what you want about that (directed broadly at the thread) but I think the best way to look at it is Chevaliers are humans with all of their shitty humanness and amazing humanness who are part of an amoral organization that teaches callousness and expediency (the code of the Chevaliers is not the code of chivalry - they are actively taught "dirty fighting") for the sake of a greater existence (the Orlesian empire).

As somebody who is squarely on the opposite side from you about the "honor and morality" thing, I couldn't agree more with this paragraph.

[Xilizhra]

I think some of Blackwall's backstory hints at them not all being black hats as well. The Chevalier at the Grand Tourney in the Free Marches puts aside his own ambitions to help Blackwall win it, and later offers to make Blackwall his squire...an offer that would have would put Blackwall (a commoner and a foreigner) potentially on a path to knighthood. That was chivalrous behavior towards someone well below his social station. 

People can be nice to some other people and murderous to others. The latter outweighs the former.

[Cecilia]

As somebody who is squarely on the opposite side from you about the "honor and morality" thing, I couldn't agree more with this paragraph.

 

Given DA's deconstruction penchant, they're really more of a deconstruction of the myth of what a knight is, I suppose. Because, for all of our Arthurian legends and pretty stories, knights were, at their heart, elite mounted combat forces. The way DA's Chevaliers and their code makes them sound more like ... an elite mercenary group is probably BW's way of stripping that shiny veneer off knighthood and pointing it out for what it really was. (We do see people in V.R. romanticizing Chevaliers and treating them like medieval knights, which is probably a reflection of how knights were "viewed" in our own history)

[Iakus]

I wonder, given only  what we saw and heard of the Grey Wardens in DAI, what we would have thought of the organization had we not played DAO and seen the likes of Alistair, Duncan, Riordan and the ravages of a Blight (albiet a small one )?

[Bleachrude]

I wonder, given only  what we saw and heard of the Grey Wardens in DAI, what we would have thought of the organization had we not played DAO and seen the likes of Alistair, Duncan, Riordan and the ravages of a Blight (albiet a small one )?

 

Along those lines, what would we think of Ferelden nobility if the only origin was the City elf one? Given Vaughn's actions in the alienage, would you say that ferelden nobility have no issue with gangrape of elves?

[Cecilia]

Along those lines, what would we think of Ferelden nobility if the only origin was the City elf one? Given Vaughn's actions in the alienage, would you say that ferelden nobility have no issue with gangrape of elves?

 

I feel like the general idea is that not many people care about the elves at all (I'd assume what Vaughn did would be frowned upon with prejudice -10 daddyapproval since it would be viewed as a self demeaning and embarrassing action, but that's more akin to mom disapproves of you kicking the puppy than ogodyoucriminallockhimupnow) 

 

It's more or less how Dorian gets away with saying some of the problematic stuff he does about slavery in DA:I (I still disapprove. Inquisitor Trevelyan Greatly Disapproves Dorian you Southern slavery apologist)

[Xilizhra]

I wonder, given only  what we saw and heard of the Grey Wardens in DAI, what we would have thought of the organization had we not played DAO and seen the likes of Alistair, Duncan, Riordan and the ravages of a Blight (albiet a small one )?

Good and necessary soldiers who were misled.

 

 

Along those lines, what would we think of Ferelden nobility if the only origin was the City elf one? Given Vaughn's actions in the alienage, would you say that ferelden nobility have no issue with gangrape of elves?

Certainly not enough to outlaw it, which is quite enough to think of them very poorly.

[Addai]

Along those lines, what would we think of Ferelden nobility if the only origin was the City elf one? Given Vaughn's actions in the alienage, would you say that ferelden nobility have no issue with gangrape of elves?

They will at least pretend to be shocked at hearing of Loghain and Howe selling elves to Tevinter, though it nets you no points in the Landsmeet scorecard. Fiona's experience shows that black market slavery exists in Orlais. At the Winter Palace, no one even mentions the slaughter of the entire elven staff downstairs. It's not a point of discussion in the negotiations at all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

They will at least pretend to be shocked at hearing of Loghain and Howe selling elves to Tevinter, though it nets you no points in the Landsmeet scorecard. Fiona's experience shows that black market slavery exists in Orlais. At the Winter Palace, no one even mentions the slaughter of the entire elven staff downstairs. It's not a point of discussion in the negotiations at all.

To be honest apparently if you point that elves were sold by loghain it giains you support one of nobles what pretty much most of arguments (save for that require persuasion) gain you certain noble support.

[Eliastion]

 

 

They will at least pretend to be shocked at hearing of Loghain and Howe selling elves to Tevinter, though it nets you no points in the Landsmeet scorecard. (...)

To be honest apparently if you point that elves were sold by loghain it giains you support one of nobles what pretty much most of arguments (save for that require persuasion) gain you certain noble support.

Yeah, other than doing quests for people, bringing up selling elves to slavery is one of the few ways you can actually get additional support without doing quests. To have a comparison, the only other good argument that can net you support without persuasion check is pointing out that Blight is the real problem, not Orlais (possible double effectiveness with good persuasion). The accusation of playing a part in selling elves has impact comparable to claim of Loghain's treason as Ostagar with good persuasion check or bringing up Alistair right to the throne - again, a persuasion check required or the argument backfires.

Basically, while it's likely that what's really in action is Fereldan hatred of the idea of slavery rather than concern for the elves, they at the very least are considered people enough that selling them into slavery is, in fact, considered a crime.

One might also note that Dalish in Ferelden are on average seemingly on better terms with human population than in Orlais or Antiva, which might be another hint that generally Ferelden is slightly less racist than Thedas average. I'd say that Vaughan case is more of a combination of somewhat barbaric views Ferelden has on justice and the fact that he actually was Arl's son. I always got the feeling that in his case it was a matter of "some people can get away with anything" rather than rape not being a crime when committed by a noble on an elf. Note how many de-facto murders happen in Denerim with little repercussion when there's nobody to stand up for the victim...

 

EDIT: Then there is that army of city guards that goes after you if you happen to steal unsuccessfully, so one starts to wonder what priorities do these guys have... but oh well.

[Addai]

To be honest apparently if you point that elves were sold by loghain it giains you support one of nobles what pretty much most of arguments (save for that require persuasion) gain you certain noble support.

But in terms of the vote, it's a null. You get points for bringing up the Blight, accusing Loghain of using a blood mage to poison Eamon and Anora's support.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But in terms of the vote, it's a null. You get points for bringing up the Blight, accusing Loghain of using a blood mage to poison Eamon and Anora's support.

Well noble support give you point hell you can bring up even torture it won't give you point only noble support (what is 1 point) so using it does matter (unless you already have his support) but there are stronger arguments against loghain like blight or turning grand cleric against him and in same argument revealing he poisoned eamon or using queen word against loghain. 

[Eliastion]

But in terms of the vote, it's a null. You get points for bringing up the Blight, accusing Loghain of using a blood mage to poison Eamon and Anora's support.

You're wrong. You do get a vote, but (like some other votes, mind you) it's one you can get in more than one way, the other being a quest. Perhaps that's how you missed it?

[Bleachrude]

That honestly seems more akin to "Ferelden doesn't like slavery" along the same lines as "orlais doesn't like slavery". Remember, even though Orlais is the nation that has elven purges, Ferelden ALSO is noted to have these and Isabela herself mentions in DAII that it is the Orlesian navy that pirates/slavers fear. Both Orlais and

 

It says nothing of what they think of elves specifically.  IIRC, wasn't there even a Chantry mother at the wedding who tried to stop Vaughn and he still took the elves away? There's also the fact that technically, the city elf was going to the fallows NOT because she killed a noble (Vaughn is still alive in many scenarios) but the killing of the guards even though Vaughn had kidnapped all those women.

[Bleachrude]

Good and necessary soldiers who were misled.

 

 

 

re: Wardens

 

But that's coming from two previous games of the series...the first one where you explicitly play a heroic warden and a second game where the wardens at the least are on the side of good. If our ONLY interaction with the wardens had been this game itself, I definitely can see where Iakus is leading to.

 

It's similar to how so many feel sympathetic to mages since we get to play a mage (3 games now) but ironically we actually never get to play a templar (we learn templar powers across the three games - but we never actually play a templar). 

[TheKomandorShepard]

That honestly seems more akin to "Ferelden doesn't like slavery" along the same lines as "orlais doesn't like slavery". Remember, even though Orlais is the nation that has elven purges, Ferelden ALSO is noted to have these and Isabela herself mentions in DAII that it is the Orlesian navy that pirates/slavers fear. Both Orlais and

 

It says nothing of what they think of elves specifically.  IIRC, wasn't there even a Chantry mother at the wedding who tried to stop Vaughn and he still took the elves away? There's also the fact that technically, the city elf was going to the fallows NOT because she killed a noble (Vaughn is still alive in many scenarios) but the killing of the guards even though Vaughn had kidnapped all those women.

I never heard isabela saying that in da 2.Well considering that you get -10 in court approval as elf , dwarf or mage and pretty and you have no so problems in ferelden says something.Also become arl of amaranthine as new warden people won't have problem with you being elf only orlesian.  

 

Vaughan was son of arl of denerim so he was rather typical example my parent is important so i can get away with things he pretty much outright says that in your face if you know who he is in elf origin. I have far better impression that elves in ferelden are treated depending on noble where cousland was good for elves and they didn't had bad with him howe puppy kicker that was able to get away with things thanks to loghain.  

[Ynqve]

re: Wardens

 

But that's coming from two previous games of the series...the first one where you explicitly play a heroic warden and a second game where the wardens at the least are on the side of good. If our ONLY interaction with the wardens had been this game itself, I definitely can see where Iakus is leading to.

 

It's similar to how so many feel sympathetic to mages since we get to play a mage (3 games now) but ironically we actually never get to play a templar (we learn templar powers across the three games - but we never actually play a templar). 

 

But you don't have to play a heroic warden. You can play him/her as a complete psychopath if you want to. 

 

And in all honesty, I think I would have liked the Wardens no matter what. As long as you explain why the Wardens are so necessary, I think most people are willing to cut them some slack for raising a demon army or releasing an ancient darkspawn or two. I doubt most players view the Wardens as an order of white knights and heroes. And the order never claims to be anything but morally grey. They do whatever it takes to stop the Blight, consequences be damned. The only warden I can think of who actually believes they're storybook heroes is Alistair, but in DAI he knows better. 

[FiveThreeTen]

They will at least pretend to be shocked at hearing of Loghain and Howe selling elves to Tevinter, though it nets you no points in the Landsmeet scorecard. Fiona's experience shows that black market slavery exists in Orlais. At the Winter Palace, no one even mentions the slaughter of the entire elven staff downstairs. It's not a point of discussion in the negotiations at all.

Well to be fair, there was also human servants who were killed in the Winter Palace. I'm not arguing that elven lives are viewed as more expandable but so are those of other servants and a lot of commoners.

[Bleachrude]

I never heard isabela saying that in da 2.Well considering that you get -10 in court approval as elf , dwarf or mage and pretty and you have no so problems in ferelden says something.Also become arl of amaranthine as new warden people won't have problem with you being elf only orlesian.  

 

 

My mistake..it's in the comics. Isabela's backstory in the Silent Grove comics.

[Addai]

Well to be fair, there was also human servants who were killed in the Winter Palace. I'm not arguing that elven lives are viewed as more expandable but so are those of other servants and a lot of commoners.

There were? The servants tell you as an elven Inquisitor not to go to the servant quarters because "no elf who's gone in there tonight has come back out." That sounds pretty specific.

[FiveThreeTen]

There were? The servants tell you as an elven Inquisitor not to go to the servant quarters because "no elf who's gone in there tonight has come back out." That sounds pretty specific.

Yep, the elven servants are referring to Briala agents (who are all elves one would assume) who were investigating the servants quarters and didn't return. When you click on the "Investigate Corpses", your Quiz says "thoses were the elves Briala was looking for".

 

But among the other corpses you have humans, (round eared lady here) :

[Eliastion]

That honestly seems more akin to "Ferelden doesn't like slavery" along the same lines as "orlais doesn't like slavery". Remember, even though Orlais is the nation that has elven purges, Ferelden ALSO is noted to have these and Isabela herself mentions in DAII that it is the Orlesian navy that pirates/slavers fear. Both Orlais and

 

It says nothing of what they think of elves specifically.  IIRC, wasn't there even a Chantry mother at the wedding who tried to stop Vaughn and he still took the elves away? There's also the fact that technically, the city elf was going to the fallows NOT because she killed a noble (Vaughn is still alive in many scenarios) but the killing of the guards even though Vaughn had kidnapped all those women.

Orlais might be hunting pirates, but it's also repeatedly implied or even explicitly stated that that the nobles do keep slaves and the practice is hardly uncommon even if they do care for appearances not to call them slaves. I think part of Celene's reforms was an attempt at enforcing anti-slavery laws to any extent. And that is what they do on their own yard, since we're told that Orlais after taking control of Ferelden declared Fereldan elves to be property and started selling them; it's implied that it was done officially and on large scale, though I must say I don't buy it entirely (unreliable narrators of codex entries and things like that). Still, I believe the practice was in place and left completely unchecked as a way for nobles to get some extra gold out of the whole invasion mess.

 

As for the guilt of City Elf, I wonder what would happen were Vaughan killed on the spot, there in Alienage. When it all happened in his residence, though, that can change a lot - a couple elves going on a killing spree in arl's mansion doesn't look well. Note, however, that even if both you and Soris keep silent and that b*tch rats you out, Soris is not judged and hanged - he actually ends up in Howe's little private dungeon. And, as we know, you don't exactly need to be guilty of anything to end up there. Seeing as city guards most likely are directly responsible before the Arl of Denerim (then Vaughan's father), I woldn't put it above lord Kendells to throw the "guilty" elf into dungeon wondering what to do with this mess to not send the message that you can just barge into Arl's estate but also not to have a blatantly unjust execution on your hands (especially as the mother, while unwilling to really stand up to Vaughan, could've testified or something...). There could also be the element of vengeance if Vaughan died. Either way, however, Soris apparently lives and serious repercussions for Alienage only start with Howe... who most likely needed a pretext, not a reason.

Basically, I'm willing to believe that were the justice (or Fereldan perception of justice, more specifically) served, Warden and Soris could very well have gotten away with killing Arl's son. Of course, when your opponent in court is the Arl, your chances of getting free trial are greatly reduced, but in Orlais it would likley be the law that kills the "murderous elf" in similar situation, not any abuse of law.

[Han Shot First]

People can be nice to some other people and murderous to others. The latter outweighs the former.

 

You missed the point. There are some characters in the series who describe the Chevaliers as if they're all d-cks to anyone who isn't a Chevalier or of noble birth. Obviously that isn't the case as Blackwall's story illustrates. Stroud might be another example. No doubt there is a reason why such stereotypes exist, but just because character X says "they're all bad" does not necessarily mean the player should accept that as an absolute in-universe fact.