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[Eliastion]

The problem is that "other honorable organizations" generally have their darkness as part of their cause. GW are focused on fighting the Blight, Templars protect the world from magic... Other than a couple renegades, both organizations have their dark side shown by getting too fanatical and doing nasty things for their goal, which can finally get them completely derailed (as it happened with Templar order).

But with Chevaliers it feels like their nasty habits have nothing to do with their goals or ideals at all! A Templar who goes on to murder any magically gifted child he can find 'because Circles were not enough might be a monster, but we get where he's coming from. GW are pretty much expected to do terrible things if it means getting a step closer to defeating an Archdemon. But Chevaliers murdering elves in the Alienage are not like that - they're murderers because why not. They don't have a couse they overcommit to.

And it's also not something we can just put into "war is terrible" category (like the rapes of common people and selling elves to slavery in Ferelden) and consider crimes conducted by a few. If it is, actually, common - as it was suggested - then it's not some "dark side" of the organization or "power corrupts" theme. It's the big neon-sign "We are cartoon villains". Unless the Wiki has it VERY wrong (I didn't read the book personally) this little practice is a clear indication that we're dealing with an organization that is completely irredeemable and it's any decent person in it that would be a renegade, not the other way 'round.

I must say I consider it quite unnecessary addition, there are plenty of ways for Chevaliers to be corrupted, their level of power over commoners just asks for abuse. But when it ceases to be "how they fall" and becomes "how they are from the very start", the potential seems pretty much wasted...

[Addai]

Poncy gits.

[BioWareM0d13]

I think we should have a Chevalier companion in the next game to show another side of them to the codex entries. Rather than being pure 'black hats,' I think they should be presented as morally gray, with both good and bad members.

 

I'd have all Chevaliers do the initiation where they kill elves, but have the 'good' Chevaliers target criminals or rebels in the alienage, or Dalish that have engaged in banditry or murder, with the 'evil' Chevaliers being less discriminate and operating on an any knife-ear will do philosophy. 

 

We did meet Stroud, who is honorable and and a former Chevalier. But we don't really know much about his backstory. 

[Aimi]

I think we should have a Chevalier companion in the next game to show another side of them to the codex entries. Rather than being pure 'black hats,' I think they should be presented as morally gray, with both good and bad members.

This is a good idea in a vacuum. But adding context to an in-game situation to make it appear more morally gray is something that BioWare historically struggles with. In the effort to make something appear more gray than it formerly seemed, BioWare writers often introduce extra implausibilities or ridiculous assertions into the games, such as ME3's portrayal of the Krogan Rebellions, or DA:I's portrayal of the Exalted March of the Dales.

And, y'know, sometimes this s**t isn't gray at all.

[Vita Brevis]

It's the big neon-sign "We are cartoon villains".

They're just nobles. And that means a lot.

[Eliastion]

I think we should have a Chevalier companion in the next game to show another side of them to the codex entries. Rather than being pure 'black hats,' I think they should be presented as morally gray, with both good and bad members.

 

I'd have all Chevaliers do the initiation where they kill elves, but have the 'good' Chevaliers target criminals or rebels in the alienage, or Dalish that have engaged in banditry or murder, with the 'evil' Chevaliers being less discriminate and operating on an any knife-ear will do philosophy. 

 

We did meet Stroud, who is honorable and and a former Chevalier. But we don't really know much about his backstory. 

"Let's get drunk and go to Alienage and kill some elves, only criminals ofc."? Sorry, the path you propose would just be completely implausible.

Pretty much the only way Chevaliers could be moved back to "morally gray" territory would be a retcon of those practices. The rest of what they do can be considered abuse of power, but unless somebody who read the book confirms that the Wiki has it wrong (which is possible), there's little to be salvaged when it comes to their morality.

[I present Chuck Bass]

"Let's get drunk and go to Alienage and kill some elves, only criminals ofc."? Sorry, the path you propose would just be completely implausible.
Pretty much the only way Chevaliers could be moved back to "morally gray" territory would be a retcon of those practices. The rest of what they do can be considered abuse of power, but unless somebody who read the book confirms that the Wiki has it wrong (which is possible), there's little to be salvaged when it comes to their morality.

What's a few city elves here and there?

[Korva]

Yep. Specifically targeting elves already makes it impossible to salvage anything here. If you're deliberately going after a marginalized, despised minority with essentially zero legal protection anyway, odds are your definition of "criminal" more or less boils down to "existing as an elf". How much you can get away with before being labelled a "criminal" often depends entirely on status and money. We see the same in the real world all the time, and it's going to be even more pronounced in a setting where ideas of democracy, equality and human rights don't even exist in theory.

[MisterJB]

The purpose of the ritual is unclear.

It could just be a bit of graduation fun. Rather than taking the boys out for a night on the brother, you take them to the alienage and let them go nuts. They're drunk and happy that they earned the most distinct rank of Knighthood in Thedas and things get violent.

 

It could also be a test of loyalty. You're sent to an alienage and told to go search for criminals and kill them. It could be the instructors are seeing if you would disobey an order and will sack you if you do.

[MisterJB]

But do we really need talk about this particular ritual whenever the Chevaliers are brought up? There are other aspects to them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But do we really need talk about this particular ritual whenever the Chevaliers are brought up? There are other aspects to them.

It makes sense here since the thread is talking about having a Chevalier companion. It is a big aspect of them, so it should be touched upon. 

[The Hierophant]

The purpose of the ritual is unclear.

It could just be a bit of graduation fun. Rather than taking the boys out for a night on the brother, you take them to the alienage and let them go nuts. They're drunk and happy that they earned the most distinct rank of Knighthood in Thedas and things get violent.

 

It could also be a test of loyalty. You're sent to an alienage and told to go search for criminals and kill them. It could be the instructors are seeing if you would disobey an order and will sack you if you do.

I wouldn't be surprised if their rite is also preparing them for the annual elven rebellion they'll have to put down.

[Vita Brevis]

The purpose of the ritual is unclear.

It could just be a bit of graduation fun. Rather than taking the boys out for a night on the brother, you take them to the alienage and let them go nuts. They're drunk and happy that they earned the most distinct rank of Knighthood in Thedas and things get violent.

 

It could also be a test of loyalty. You're sent to an alienage and told to go search for criminals and kill them. It could be the instructors are seeing if you would disobey an order and will sack you if you do.

The purpose is to make them get their hands dirty so no one would think they're above that. It's a test of loyalty, but for another reason - you should prove you're like them and that you fit in. So from that time they're all equal, they all participated in crimes and no one could say they're innocent so no one will sale out their comrades and stuff like that. That sh*t is well known in real world amongst teens and criminals.

[Eliastion]

Yep. Specifically targeting elves already makes it impossible to salvage anything here. If you're deliberately going after a marginalized, despised minority with essentially zero legal protection anyway, odds are your definition of "criminal" more or less boils down to "existing as an elf". How much you can get away with before being labelled a "criminal" often depends entirely on status and money. We see the same in the real world all the time, and it's going to be even more pronounced in a setting where ideas of democracy, equality and human rights don't even exist in theory.

I think it would be just as bad were they to go to any slum, really. 

 

But do we really need talk about this particular ritual whenever the Chevaliers are brought up? There are other aspects to them.

There are, but the problem is that this one is so ridiculously overboard that it pretty much prevents any attempt at making them more-or-less morally neutral.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if their rite is also preparing them for the annual elven rebellion they'll have to put down.

That's slightly off-topic, but: I can see why they would get annual elven rebellions...  

[The Hierophant]

After having Morrigan, Zevran, Anders, Velanna, Cole, Dorian, Iron Bull, Solas and Isabela for companions i'd welcome a chevalier. Plus i doubt the writers would whitewash the chevalier order due to including one as a companion. it's not like the writers whitewashed Tevinter's slavery or caste system with Dorian's inclusion.

 

I'd also like it if Chevalier was made into a specialisation complete with a bed sheet attack. Loved it how Michel was destroying elite Dalish warriors with a blanket.

[Eliastion]

After having Morrigan, Zevran, Anders, Velanna, Cole, Dorian, Iron Bull and Isabela for companions i'd welcome a chevalier. Plus i doubt the writers would whitewash the chevalier order due to including one as a companion. it's not like the writers whitewashed Teveinter's slavery or caste system with Dorian's inclusion.

 

I'd also like if Chevalier was made into a specialisation complete with a bed sheet attack. Loved it how Michel was destroying elite Dalish warriors with a blanket.

You could have a decent Chevalier, sure, but without retcons he would be an oddity, not a proof that Chevaliers aren't that bad. And that's the problem. If going on a killing spree was something that sometimes happened with young Chevaliers drunk on their success, wine and near-immunity to any and all resposibility for crimes committed against commoners, that would be a dark stain on organization's image, but the image itself could still be salvaged. But this killing spree is almost a requirement?...

In fact, I'd say that your average assassin's guild is more redeemable than Chevaliers - after all if they go after someone, they have a "good reason". Namely: they're being paid for it. You can rationalize them as mercenaries doing their job. But going after defenseless people with no reason beyond showing that your sword can, indeed, kill a person... that's another category entirely.

 

Also, I wouldn't count on blanket special attacks, sorry 

[The Hierophant]

You could have a decent Chevalier, sure, but without retcons he would be an oddity, not a proof that Chevaliers aren't that bad. And that's the problem. If going on a killing spree was something that sometimes happened with young Chevaliers drunk on their success, wine and near-immunity to any and all resposibility for crimes committed against commoners, that would be a dark stain on organization's image, but the image itself could still be salvaged. But this killing spree is almost a requirement?...

In fact, I'd say that your average assassin's guild is more redeemable than Chevaliers - after all if they go after someone, they have a "good reason". Namely: they're being paid for it. You can rationalize them as mercenaries doing their job. But going after defenseless people with no reason beyond showing that your sword can, indeed, kill a person... that's another category entirely.

 

Also, I wouldn't count on blanket special attacks, sorry 

Me personally i don't think the Order's image needs to be made redeemable by either being whitewashed or retconned, in order to produce an engaging character who's not beyond criticism. The majority of DA's companions were flawed, screwed up people and i'd like that trend to continue with the probable chevalier companion.

[BioWareM0d13]

"Let's get drunk and go to Alienage and kill some elves, only criminals ofc."? Sorry, the path you propose would just be completely implausible.

Pretty much the only way Chevaliers could be moved back to "morally gray" territory would be a retcon of those practices. The rest of what they do can be considered abuse of power, but unless somebody who read the book confirms that the Wiki has it wrong (which is possible), there's little to be salvaged when it comes to their morality.

 

I don't think it is implausible at all. We only have one source on the Chevalier initiation as far as I know, and exactly how reliable is that source? If you read ancient historians like Polybius or Livy, you'll often find that they occasionally differ on details. The 'source' for the Chevalier initiation could be reporting on rumors that are not the whole truth. 

 

Also the Chevalier right of initiation seems to be based on the Spartan Krypteia. Early in their history the Spartans had subjugated other Greeks known as the Messenians, and had reduced these people to a state of serfdom to Spartan landowners. Obviously this arrangement was not too popular with the Messianians, so there was always a fear of revolt. One way of keeping the Messenian helots (serfs) intimidated and in a servile state, was something called the Krypteia. Spartan warriors who had completed training in the agoge and who were marked out for leadership skills, would be given a chance to prove their worth to their city-state by participation in the Krypteia. Every year the Spartan leaders would declare war on the helots to absolve the kryptes (members of the Krypteia) of the crime of murder, and the men would sneak out at night into the countryside armed with daggers. Any helot they came across could be killed and troublemakers among the helots were singled out.

 

That's sort of the route I think Bioware should go. Have some of the Chevaliers focus on known troublemakers who pose a risk to the either order or security, and others not caring and simply cutting down the first elf that crosses his or her path.

[AresKeith]

I'd welcome a Chevalier companion for the next game

 

along with a Avvar companion   

[thesuperdarkone2]

I don't think it is implausible at all. We only have one source on the Chevalier initiation as far as I know, and exactly how reliable is that source? If you read ancient historians like Polybius or Livy, you'll often find that they occasionally differ on details. The 'source' for the Chevalier initiation could be reporting on rumors that are not the whole truth. 

 

Also the Chevalier right of initiation seems to be based on the Spartan Krypteia. Early in their history the Spartans had subjugated other Greeks known as the Messenians, and had reduced these people to a state of serfdom to Spartan landowners. Obviously this arrangement was not too popular with the Messianians, so there was always a fear of revolt. One way of keeping the Messenian helots (serfs) intimidated and in a servile state, was something called the Krypteia. Spartan warriors who had completed training in the agoge and who were marked out for leadership skills, would be given a chance to prove their worth to their city-state by participation in the Krypteia. Every year the Spartan leaders would declare war on the helots to absolve the kryptes (members of the Krypteia) of the crime of murder, and the men would sneak out at night into the countryside armed with daggers. Any helot they came across could be killed and troublemakers among the helots were singled out.

 

That's sort of the route I think Bioware should go. Have some of the Chevaliers focus on known troublemakers who pose a risk to the either order or security, and others not caring and simply cutting down the first elf that crosses his or her path.

There is a dagger which references the fact that Chevaliers kill elves as an initiation. I think it's called Knightslayer and it belonged to an elf that got fed up and decided to kill chevaliers for this until the elf disappeared.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'd welcome a Chevalier companion for the next game

 

along with a Avvar companion   

An Avvar would be interesting. I'd much prefer one of them than a Chevalier if we are to get a warrior from the south. 

[AresKeith]

An Avvar would be interesting. I'd much prefer one of them than a Chevalier if we are to get a warrior from the south. 

 

Avvar can be rogues too

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Avvar can be rogues too

True, but I already have hopes for the Rogue companions.

[Milan92]

A morally grey Avvar who has raided and murdered their fair share of things does sound interesting.

[The Baconer]

I don't think it is implausible at all. We only have one source on the Chevalier initiation as far as I know, and exactly how reliable is that source?

 

Well, two. One is the dagger that darkone mentioned (revealing that the tradition dates back to at least the Black Age), the other is a firsthand account of someone who participated in it.