According to Michel, they were told that the initiation was justice for three elves who had "done injury" to nobles the previous year. But he says there was no indication who these elves were. It was just a pretext.
If we ever have a chevalier as a companion, it better be a repentant ex-chevalier.
According to Michel, they were told that the initiation was justice for three elves who had "done injury" to nobles the previous year. But he says there was no indication who these elves were. It was just a pretext.
If we ever have a chevalier as a companion, it better be a repentant ex-chevalier.
The initiation was a test to see if these recruits could follow the orders of their superiors, no matter how distasteful.
Like the Grey Wardens and Templars, they are a demonstration on how bad "whatever it takes" and "for the greater good" can become.
According to Michel, they were told that the initiation was justice for three elves who had "done injury" to nobles the previous year. But he says there was no indication who these elves were. It was just a pretext.
If we ever have a chevalier as a companion, it better be a repentant ex-chevalier.
I would very much wish to explore more the Code and what it means to be a Chevalier. It could lend itself to a very interesting story focused on what it mean to be honourable. Unfortunately, there's probably no market for it
"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.”
According to what I've read in this thread, don't forget to leave out Murder and Rape. From what I can tell, those seem to be pretty important.
To quote one of my favorite characters in inquisition, "Chevaliers are generally pricks, in my experience. The people are less inclined to celebrate those backhanders."
The initiation was a test to see if these recruits could follow the orders of their superiors, no matter how distasteful.
Like the Grey Wardens and Templars, they are a demonstration on how bad "whatever it takes" and "for the greater good" can become.
Then what justification is there for the fact that Chevaliers can essentially rape whoever they want?
Then what justification is there for the fact that Chevaliers can essentially rape whoever they want?
None. But I don't think anyone has ever defended them raping people.
And besides, not every Chevalier is like that.
The initiation was a test to see if these recruits could follow the orders of their superiors, no matter how distasteful.
Like the Grey Wardens and Templars, they are a demonstration on how bad "whatever it takes" and "for the greater good" can become.
If that were the case, wouldn't they have picked targets that Orlesian nobles actually care about killing?
It makes sense for there to be some targeted killing as well. The whole purpose is to keep the elves terrorized and in a state of submission. That would work better best if they're not just killing poor maids on their way to work, but people who are known for being rabble rousers. Elves rioted and threw rocks at guards? Chevaliers hunt down and knife the ringleaders. Elf giving seditious speeches in the alienage that draw large crowds? Crowds awake one morning to find him swinging from the venadahl tree. That sort of thing...
Also the Chevalier right of initiation seems to be based on the Spartan Krypteia. Early in their history the Spartans had subjugated other Greeks known as the Messenians, and had reduced these people to a state of serfdom to Spartan landowners. Obviously this arrangement was not too popular with the Messianians, so there was always a fear of revolt. One way of keeping the Messenian helots (serfs) intimidated and in a servile state, was something called the Krypteia. Spartan warriors who had completed training in the agoge and who were marked out for leadership skills, would be given a chance to prove their worth to their city-state by participation in the Krypteia. Every year the Spartan leaders would declare war on the helots to absolve the kryptes (members of the Krypteia) of the crime of murder, and the men would sneak out at night into the countryside armed with daggers. Any helot they came across could be killed and troublemakers among the helots were singled out.
That's sort of the route I think Bioware should go. Have some of the Chevaliers focus on known troublemakers who pose a risk to the either order or security, and others not caring and simply cutting down the first elf that crosses his or her path.
It makes sense for there to be some targeted killing as well. The whole purpose is to keep the elves terrorized and in a state of submission. That would work better best if they're not just killing poor maids on their way to work, but people who are known for being rabble rousers. Elves rioted and threw rocks at guards? Chevaliers hunt down and knife the ringleaders. Elf giving seditious speeches in the alienage that draw large crowds? Crowds awake one morning to find him swinging from the venadahl tree. That sort of thing...
What's your point? That they kill in targeted fashion as well as indiscriminately? How is that any better?
They don't just terrorise elves.
Speak to the Orlesian Merchant girl in Denerim in DA:O. Any chevalier can take any women they want any time they want and if their brothers try to protect them, both of them have to leave Orlais to prevent them both from being killed.
Just because.
There's no "grey" there. They're a bunch of arseholes, just as Sera says.
According to Michel, they were told that the initiation was justice for three elves who had "done injury" to nobles the previous year. But he says there was no indication who these elves were. It was just a pretext.
If we ever have a chevalier as a companion, it better be a repentant ex-chevalier.
I'm genuinely torn about things like this -- on one hand, chevaliers have interesting lore and history behind them. On the other hand, it looks like they're pretty much among the most selfish, cruel people in Thedas. It would be interesting to have them as a party member, but I don't know if I'd want them whitewashed either.
It would be interesting to have a chevalier who is awful enough to actually make the "no, I don't want you joining my party" dialogue actually viable. Though I don't know if it's worth developer time creating a character that people will actually want out of the party, or who will strongly clash with any decent character in the party. So maybe it's conceptually interesting, but no reasonable in practice.
On the other hand, a repentant ex-chevalier is possibly the only practical way of doing it. It would allow them to join the party without being pretty much the worst, and it would provide justification for it to be a specialization.
Uh, yeah...the fact that we're comparing chevalier practices to a slave state's adolescent slave-murder squads is exactly why "morally gray" chevaliers are super questionable. The Lakedaimonians have always been the most disgusting part about ancient Greek history, and the Krypteia the most disgusting part about Lakedaimon.
I was using the Krypteia as a comparison because while the kryptes could kill any helot without fear of punishment, they also targeted troublemakers. It is a bit more complicated than how the Chevaliers are portrayed currently. I made no claim however that the Spartans were paragons of virtue.
What's your point? That they kill in targeted fashion as well as indiscriminately? How is that any better?
It is more morally gray.
Some are killing enemies of the state or criminals. Some are killing indiscriminately. Some are misguided patriots, others are wanton killers. Its not so difficult to understand.
I was using the Krypteia as a comparison because while the kryptes could kill any helot without fear of punishment, they also targeted troublemakers. It is a bit more complicated than how the Chevaliers are portrayed currently. I made no claim however that the Spartans were paragons of virtue.
They don't just terrorise elves.
Speak to the Orlesian Merchant girl in Denerim in DA:O. Any chevalier can take any women they want any time they want and if their brothers try to protect them, both of them have to leave Orlais to prevent them both from being killed.
Just because.
There's no "grey" there. They're a bunch of arseholes, just as Sera says.
I must disagree here. The fact that Chevaliers have a status that lets them do pretty much whatever they want to/with common people is, obviously, power that is just asking to be abused in worst possible ways. But abusing it like that is still abuse and something a honorable knight shouldn't do, right? This lets them get away with really repulsive behavior, but this doesn't mean they will actually (ab)use this power over commoners.
An informal exam that includes murdering innocent people, however, isn't just a "too much power that can be abused" situation anymore.
(...)
It would be interesting to have a chevalier who is awful enough to actually make the "no, I don't want you joining my party" dialogue actually viable. Though I don't know if it's worth developer time creating a character that people will actually want out of the party, or who will strongly clash with any decent character in the party. So maybe it's conceptually interesting, but no reasonable in practice.
(...)
Well, I don't think that aspect would be really a problem. Evil companions wouldn't be anything new in cRPG and even though such a person might not fit with Inquisition (that was pretty much forced to be good-ish) it doesn't mean that it would be impossible to have a really despicable character as potential companion in some future installment. All we would need is a good motivation for such character to join forces with PC.
You need to be an Orlesian noble, or forge some Orlesian noble heritage, and attend the Academie in Val Royeaux.
Bull$hit!
Bull$hit!
Spoiler
The fact that there are ways to get yourself a (false) noble title and pass for a noble doesn't change anything. Officially he was a noble, if it were discovered that he was not one, he would be thrown out (and most likely executed, impersonating a noble is a serious offense).
If that were the case, wouldn't they have picked targets that Orlesian nobles actually care about killing?
Why? What's important is that they follow orders. And elves are "just "knife-eared peasants. The nobles won't care.
Bull$hit!
Spoiler
Michel's "noble" heritage was
Except it's really not. For their intiation, at least, they're killing indiscriminately.It is more morally gray.
Some are killing enemies of the state or criminals. Some are killing indiscriminately. Some are misguided patriots, others are wanton killers. Its not so difficult to understand.
It's no test of obedience if they're indifferent. Anyway, it's not presented as a test, rather it sounds more like a celebration and a ritual. Reminds them and everyone else of the chevaliers' role in the social strata.Why? What's important is that they follow orders. And elves are "just "knife-eared peasants. The nobles won't care.
Except it's really not. For their intiation, at least, they're killing indiscriminately.
It's no test of obedience if they're indifferent. Anyway, it's not presented as a test, rather it sounds more like a celebration and a ritual. Reminds them and everyone else of the chevaliers' role in the social strata.
Sure it's a test. Even if the instructors don't care about the elves, they need to weed out the squeamish recruits. The ones who will balk at following unpleasant orders. And to that end, they used elves. A group no "real people" will miss.
ANd it was defnitely a test, Michel knew Bad Things would happen to him if he hesitated.
Michel is a half elf. For the others, where's the unpleasantness? This is something Orlesian nobles do for sport.Sure it's a test. Even if the instructors don't care about the elves, they need to weed out the squeamish recruits. The ones who will balk at following unpleasant orders. And to that end, they used elves. A group no "real people" will miss.
ANd it was defnitely a test, Michel knew Bad Things would happen to him if he hesitated.
Don't even start with that BS.Not really.
You have to be breaking curfew to be out that late, as far as legality goes they are guilty of at least that crime.
Are there people actually defending cold-blooded murder?
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