460 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Don't even start with that BS.

You disagreeing with a law doesn't make it less then a law.

[Eliastion]

Michel is a half elf. For the others, where's the unpleasantness? This is something Orlesian nobles do for sport.

I think you underestimate how hard it is to actually kill a person. Even if that person is an elf.

And I'm pretty sure elf-killing for sport is pretty extreme. Though, of course, Orlais is bound to have its share of Vaughains, definitely more than Ferelden seeing how elves are generally treated in both countries...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

You disagreeing with a law doesn't make it less then a law.

So I guess them doing literally whatever they want to innocent people is good with you too since they are allowed to? 

[Master Warder Z_]

It's actually illegal to defend a elf in Fereldan.

From guardsmen and such.

[Master Warder Z_]

So I guess them doing literally whatever they want to innocent people is good with you too since they are allowed to?

No.

Moral expletives don't enter into it for me.

The law is what it is, if they want to stop dying, they need to stop being out past curfew.

The alienage reminds me of the red zone which was under military curfew for my entire time in Iraq.

If you were out past dark you could be shot on sight.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No.

Moral expletives don't enter into it for me.

The law is what it is, if they want to stop dying, they need to stop being out past curfew.

The alienage reminds me of the red zone which was under military curfew for my entire time in Iraq.

If you were out past dark you could be shot on sight.

I was referring more to them being able to rob/abuse/rape/kill/etc Orlesian citizens whenever the whim strikes them, not just the City Elf thing. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

No.

Moral expletives don't enter into it for me.

The law is what it is, if they want to stop dying, they need to stop being out past curfew.

The alienage reminds me of the red zone which was under military curfew for my entire time in Iraq.

If you were out past dark you could be shot on sight.

 

So, I'm guessing you're absolutely fine with Tevinter's legally imposed magocracy. Or better yet, you must be completely nonplussed about their slave policies. If a master wants to rape his property, well, that's just his right as a slave owner, correct. Honestly, if you have thing for the chevaliers then fine but don't try to justify a morally bankrupt system by flat out throwing out the idea of morality entirely. If you happened to be an elf in Orlais you'd probably have a problem with a social structure that denies you the privilege to take a midnight stroll on the pain of random rape or murder. 

 

Laws without any universal moral expletives are just enforced writ that serves no one but the one's who form them. 

 

And can't even begin with your alienage redzone analogue. 

[Master Warder Z_]

And can't even begin with your alienage redzone analogue.

They could simply be criminals breaking curfew or something worse.

What are they doing out when it's illegal to do so? It's similar because it's about the same situation, are they simply criminals or worse.

If you don't stop them will more people be put in danger? You called the law a self serving writ, it may very well be but if it was followed there would be no need for violent response.

I also ignored the rest of your post because I didn't find it interesting enough to debate.

[Master Warder Z_]

I was referring more to them being able to rob/abuse/rape/kill/etc Orlesian citizens whenever the whim strikes them, not just the City Elf thing.

How is that diffrent from any other noble? I don't hoist up the Chevaliers for their virtue.

I enjoy them because their interesting.

[Eliastion]

It's actually illegal to defend a elf in Fereldan.

From guardsmen and such.

I know where that information comes from and it's a bit misleading - it's in a context of a couple thugs attempting to rape an elf. Killing them in defense of an elf ("killing in defense", not "defending") would be against King's law. It's not explained how applicable the rule is - we don't know whether it would be still against the law if they tried to kill her, nor do we know how killing people in defense of other people works generally (though the race apparently plays a part there). Either way, beating them senseless seems to be ok, since it's explicitly "killing" that is against the law.

 

Back to the topic of Chevaliers and Orlais - unless breaking curfew is officially punished by death, what Chevaliers do is still murder.

Well, that is not counting the fact that they literally can kill or rape any commoner and it is at the very least not punishable (whether they can actually do it legally or are "just" exempt from persecution for it - that I'm not sure of; could be either way from what I know).

[Addai]

They could simply be criminals breaking curfew or something worse.

What are they doing out when it's illegal to do so? It's similar because it's about the same situation, are they simply criminals or worse.

If you don't stop them will more people be put in danger? You called the law a self serving writ, it may very well be but if it was followed there would be no need for violent response.

I also ignored the rest of your post because I didn't find it interesting enough to debate.

Lemet was walking home from a tavern.

People with workshops who have to catch up might work late.

People might want to go to a birthday party and then go home.

This discussion is a non-starter, because you don't kill people for walking down a street. Your comparison to a war zone is also a non-starter, since we're not talking about wartime.

[Emperor Iaius I]

You disagreeing with a law doesn't make it less then a law.

 

She never said that it wasn't a law, she said your argument was suspect. And it is -- the curfew may be a law, but a penalty of death is not justified. Even by the rather medieval-ish morality of Thedas it's brutal and unjust.

[Eliastion]

How is that diffrent from any other noble? I don't hoist up the Chevaliers for their virtue.

I enjoy them because their interesting.

It's explicitly stated to be Chevalier thing, apparently other nobles are to some extent accountable for their actions (even if in reality they can probably sweep everything under a rug quite nicely).

[Master Warder Z_]

This discussion is a non-starter, because you don't kill people for walking down a street. Your comparison to a war zone is also a non-starter, since we're not talking about wartime.

You kill potential criminals for walking down a street.

You kill insurgents or bandits for walking down the street.

The last thing on the list of what they possibly are, is people.

Also I'd argue most alienages are hotbeds of criminal and other unlawful activity.

It may as well be a favela.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's explicitly stated to be Chevalier thing, apparently other nobles are to some extent accountable for their actions (even if in reality they can probably sweep everything under a rug quite nicely).

Actually they are treated as nobility if you go specific so wouldn't Orlesian nobles have the same privilege?

[Addai]

The last thing on the list of what they possibly are, is people.

Only if you've already created the environment where that is an acceptable view. And naturally, that is what the chevalier ritual is meant to enforce- that the only people who count are the nobility.

[ComedicSociopathy]

You kill potential criminals for walking down a street.

You kill insurgents or bandits for walking down the street.

The last thing on the list of what they possibly are, is people.

Also I'd argue most alienages are hotbeds of criminal and other unlawful activity.

It may as well be a favela.

 

Where does it say there is a constantly curfew in place for alienages?

 

Where does it say that it is illegal to defend a elf in Ferelden? 

 

I'm asking because without this possibly non-exist curfew there's no reason to call people walking down the street, criminals, and thus warranting a quick death because they may "potentially" be criminals.

[Eliastion]

Actually they are treated as nobility if you go specific so wouldn't Orlesian nobles have the same privilege?

They ARE nobility, you need to be noble to join the order.

They apparently have special privileges for being Chevaliers on top of that.

[Eliastion]

Where does it say there is a constantly curfew in place for alienages?

 

Where does it say that it is illegal to defend a elf in Ferelden? 

 

I'm asking because without this possibly non-exist curfew there's no reason to call people walking down the street, criminals, and thus warranting a quick death because they may "potentially" be criminals.

The part about Ferelden I elaborated upon a bit in earlier post. It comes from an adventure to pen&paper RPG published by Green Ronin, so it is not that high on "official material" list, as it's approved but not created by creators of the video game. Either way, the law appears as inconsequential flavor-detail in specific circumstances and it explicitly metions "killing" - there's nothing to imply there being anything wrong with defending an elf as long as you don't kill anyone.

[Master Warder Z_]

They ARE nobility, you need to be noble to join the order.

Nobility in Orlais is like nobility in Saudi Arabia.

There is a lot of varying levels and positions of influence.

But you are right, you must be gentry but as Michel's false documentation proved it doesn't need to be high nobility or royalty.

You could be a minor lord and still be granted entry if you could pay, inversely while your privilege as a noble would be directly tied to holdings and wealth, privilege as a knight of the realm however is universal across the empire.

Thats my take on it anyway.

[Master Warder Z_]

Where does it say there is a constantly curfew in place for alienages?

It was in place when Michel did his ceremony and still in place when Gaspard visited the slums many years later.

So...if it isn't permanent it's very prolonged.

[Iakus]

Michel is a half elf. For the others, where's the unpleasantness? This is something Orlesian nobles do for sport.
 

Orlesian nobles may not like elves.  But not liking them and walking up to one and killing them are two different things.

[Iakus]

They ARE nobility, you need to be noble to join the order.

They apparently have special privileges for being Chevaliers on top of that.

Well, you specifically have to be of noble blood.  You don't have to have a title to be a chevalier.

 

It's a path often taken by  landless nobles and younger sons to make a name for themselves.

[Incantrix]

Until they get rid of the whole "kill an elf and you're initiated" bull crap. I will forever spit on their order. 

 

*spit*

[Korva]

Like the Grey Wardens and Templars, they are a demonstration on how bad "whatever it takes" and "for the greater good" can become.

 

Not even remotely comparable. First, the Wardens and templars actually have a purpose, a "greater good" -- though both, and especially the latter, have often gone way too far. There's nothing good or necessary about the chevaliers, in terms of a broader view of the world, they're just a bunch of privileged thugs propping up a system that benefits them in turn. Second, the duties and privileges of the Wardens and templars do not explicitly include brutalizing helpless people for fun and games whenever they damn well please. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or there's not plenty of corruption to cover it up (see Cole's backstory), but at least it is not part and parcel of what they are. Chevaliers don't need corrupt superiors to cover up their crimes because what they do isn't even considered criminal, while templars are (at least in theory) supposed to protect mages, too, and will draw the harsh attention and judgment of the Seekers (again, in theory) if they become abusive.

 

 

I must disagree here. The fact that Chevaliers have a status that lets them do pretty much whatever they want to/with common people is, obviously, power that is just asking to be abused in worst possible ways. But abusing it like that is still abuse and something a honorable knight shouldn't do, right?

 

"Honor" applies only to peers and superiors. It's a fancy but empty word most of the time, yet a perfect excuse for atrocity in the name of god, king and country.