460 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Next you'll be asking for an charter of human rights agreed upon by every nation in Thedas.

Somewhat unrealistic.
 

why stop there?

 

A nation for elves, equal rights in all nations, elimination of slavery in Tevinter, and the Qun peacefully disarming

[MisterJB]

Unlikely. We don't have accounts of what really was happening in Dales during that Blight, but we know about Darkspawn in Orlais AND in what now is Ferelden. We can safely assume they had their share of darkspawn too.

I don't recall any accounts of the Second Blight having reached Ferelden.

Regardless, even if there were some Darkspawn in the Dales, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be wise to send your main force to face an army strong enough to overrun an Orlesian city when it's right next to your border and you're likely to be the next target. Best to fight the Darkspawn in human lands than elven.

 

Also, there are out of character reports of the elves having watched as Montsimmard burned in "The World of Thedas."

[Eliastion]

why stop there?

 

A nation for elves, equal rights in all nations, elimination of slavery in Tevinter, and the Qun peacefully disarming

Oh, but that's still thinking small! You forgot eliminating all dangers of magic while simultaneously giving mages full freedom!

And starvation should be outlawed and droughts, and floods. And Blights eliminated by a decree.

[MisterJB]

Also, we should bring down the Veil. This mortal-spirit segregation is just not right and needs to end.

Have you even tried to hug a demon? I didn't think so.

[Steelcan]

Also, we should bring down the Veil. This mortal-spirit segregation is just not right and needs to end.

Have you even tried to hug a demon? I didn't think so.

the Grey Wardens also need to go. an organization dedicated entirely to the purpose of killing others, extremely problematic

[Eliastion]

I don't recall any accounts of the Second Blight having reached Ferelden.

Regardless, even if there were some Darkspawn in the Dales, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be wise to send your main force to face an army strong enough to overrun an Orlesian city when it's right next to your border and you're likely to be the next target. Best to fight the Darkspawn in human lands than elven.

 

Also, there are out of character reports of the elves having watched as Montsimmard burned in "The World of Thedas."

It still doesn't add up imho and tWoT may be out of character but it still sticks to "common knowledge" rather than facts... Either way, this is not a thread for this debate so let's drop it Although, as for Ferelden, check Unification of Alamarri. They didn't get the main blow, but the Blight definitely reached there too.

[Eliastion]

the Grey Wardens also need to go. an organization dedicated entirely to the purpose of killing others, extremely problematic

How could we forget - freeing Darkspawn from Old Gods' so that they can peacefully coexist with dwarves!

Though the latter would need to abolish their inhuman caste-based society.

[The Baconer]

Magic is dangerous and he wasn't fighting common foes.

The one regular mage he fights is the First of that clan (whom he defeats despite her having help), one Arcane Horror (whom he kills with help and I will point out Felassan nearly soiled himself at the sight of it and Michel just had killed a Revenant and Undead) and the same First but being possessed by one of the Forbidden Ones.

 

Yes, I remember Mihris tried to kill him with some flaccid ice-balls (coincidentally one of the few spells that the inane "raise your shield" technique can actually defend against). Compare that to other "regular" mages like Rhys and Adrian, who can, respectively, create black holes and firestorms. I struggle to think of any techniques that would actually apply to non-Templars beyond "run at them and pray to the Maker you can reach them before they finish casting... and that they don't have a barrier" and "raise your shield and pray to the Maker they shoot flaccid ice balls".

[Obadiah]

I'd just be curious to see what Bioware would do with a story where the player character is asked to uphold a code of honor, with a rite of initiation of rampaging through an alienage and murdering city elves. I'm not even sure for the specific plot the elves would need to be so innocent - the specific initiation may be against an alienage in open revolt.

*Shrug* or maybe the Chevaliers after DAI just don't have that type of initiation any more.

[MoonDrummer]

Yes, I remember Mihris tried to kill him with some flaccid ice-balls (coincidentally one of the few spells that the inane "raise your shield" technique can actually defend against). Compare that to other "regular" mages like Rhys and Adrian, who can, respectively, create black holes and firestorms. I struggle to think of any techniques that would actually apply to non-Templars beyond "run at them and pray to the Maker you can reach them before they finish casting... and that they don't have a barrier" and "raise your shield and pray to the Maker they shoot flaccid ice balls".

It was also nice that the Dalish guards obeyed Briala's orders and gave him that sodding towel, instead of telling her to bugger off.

[MisterJB]

Yes, I remember Mihris tried to kill him with some flaccid ice-balls (coincidentally one of the few spells that the inane "raise your shield" technique can actually defend against). Compare that to other "regular" mages like Rhys and Adrian, who can, respectively, create black holes and firestorms. I struggle to think of any techniques that would actually apply to non-Templars beyond "run at them and pray to the Maker you can reach them before they finish casting... and that they don't have a barrier" and "raise your shield and pray to the Maker they shoot flaccid ice balls".

Lorewise, they all read this and we are supposed to accept they can be trained to kill mages effectively.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Mage

 

Realistically speaking, I don't know. I imagine it involves blocking what you can, dodging what you can't, closing in and stay out of range of spells with a wide area, after they are through, the mage will be too spent to put up resistance. Kill them before they cast is probably the best strategy. 

 

Rhys and Adrian are are both First Enchanter level and both of those spells had drawbacks. Rhys' only sucked in those closest to it and it's definitively not something you can use if your enemy is close enough for risk of being sucked in. Adrian's all it took was for Rhys and Evangeline to hit the floor and they survived. No idea how but there's no indication in the text that either of them used any power.

 

Has a barrier ever protected a mage from anything beyond the first blow of a sword?

[MoonDrummer]

Lorewise, they all read this and we are supposed to accept they can be trained to kill mages effectively.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Mage

 

Realistically speaking, I don't know. I imagine it involves blocking what you can, dodging what you can't, closing in and stay out of range of spells with a wide area, after they are through, the mage will be too spent to put up resistance. Kill them before they cast is probably the best strategy. 

 

Rhys and Adrian are are both First Enchanter level and both of those spells had drawbacks. Rhys' only sucked in those closest to it and it's definitively not something you can use if your enemy is close enough for risk of being sucked in. Adrian's all it took was for Rhys and Evangeline to hit the floor and they survived. No idea how but there's no indication in the text that either of them used any power.

 

Has a barrier ever protected a mage from anything beyond the first blow of a sword?

I think Mhiris was protected from Celene's dagger and Briala's arroww

[The Baconer]

Lorewise, they all read this and we are supposed to accept they can be trained to kill mages effectively.

 

That is yet to be demonstrated.

 

 

Realistically speaking, I don't know. I imagine it involves blocking what you can, dodging what you can't, closing in and stay out of range of spells with a wide area, after they are through, the mage will be too spent to put up resistance. Kill them before they cast is probably the best strategy.

 

Which all relies on rather specific conditions (most notably that combat is initiated with the mage at close range). Dodging and blocking as a consistent practice is, again, inane, because it works on the assumption that the mage will be using specific spells: Relatively slow moving, single projectiles that aren't fire (convection) or lightning, stone, etc.

 

 

Rhys and Adrian are are both First Enchanter level and both of those spells had drawbacks. Rhys' only sucked in those closest to it and it's definitively not something you can use if your enemy is close enough for risk of being sucked in. Adrian's all it took was for Rhys and Evangeline to hit the floor and they survived. No idea how but there's no indication in the text that either of them used any power.

 

They were used to illustrate the level of power beyond throwing snowballs. A simple stream of fire or a few arcs of lightning would work just fine. No one is going to spin around that or block it with a standard shield.

 

 

Has a barrier ever protected a mage from anything beyond the first blow of a sword?

 

Yes, both in TME and Asunder actually. In Asunder, Rhys actually creates a barrier that holds multiple Templars at bay.

[MoonDrummer]

why stop there?

A nation for elves, equal rights in all nations, elimination of slavery in Tevinter, and the Qun peacefully disarming

Don't know why that song came to mind...

[MisterJB]

I think Mhiris was protected from Celene's dagger and Briala's arroww

Possessed Mhiris. Meaning, she was being fueled by a Forbidden One.

 

Cassandra says this:

 

• Sera: You're smirking again. Like in that fight before. What's so funny?
• Cassandra: The simplest spell had you white as a sheet. I've shrugged off worse in practice

 

I'm guessing that means you can also trust your armour to protect you.

[Rekkampum]

I'm surprised I haven't seen killabee talking about how bad chevaliers are yet.

[MisterJB]

Which all relies on rather specific conditions (most notably that combat is initiated with the mage at close range). Dodging and blocking as a consistent practice is, again, inane, because it works on the assumption that the mage will be using specific spells: Relatively slow moving, single projectiles that aren't fire (convection) or lightning, stone, etc.

 

 

 

They were used to illustrate the level of power beyond throwing snowballs. A simple stream of fire or a few arcs of lightning would work just fine. No one is going to spin around that or block it with a standard shield.

 

 

Yes, both in TME and Asunder actually. In Asunder, Rhys actually creates a barrier that holds multiple Templars at bay.

This is all relative to the strength of the mage in question but why wouldn't one be able to just dodge a stream of fire or block a fist of stone unless it is being thrown with superhuman strength which hasn't been demonstrated. We don't even know if a mage is capable of quickly shifting the direction of their stream of fire. Corypheus wasn't. That mage in DA2's final battle also kept her fire stream still despite the fact the Templar facing her was kneeling and putting his shield between himself and the flames. All she had to do was angle it downwards and he would be taking the full brunt of it but she didn't.

 

Blocking fire is another matter. I admit my knowledge there is lacking, not certain what would realistically happen if you tried to block a stream of fire with a metal shield. Iron Bull claims Templars angle the shield in a certain way so as to deflect the fire away. Again, not sure if that is something that could, realistically, work.

 

If the mage is throwing fireballs, it shouldn't be too difficult to dodge them. We haven't seen any spells in DAO reaching supersonic speeds.

 

Lightning. Erimond took some blasts head on and survived them. I'm guessing without prolonged exposure and unless you're fighting a mage of Warden Commander level, you should also survive long enough to close in.

 

 

Rhys is more powerful than most mages and Lambert still proceeded to break it with a single blow before blocking magical bolts.

Remind me, according to Cassandra, do Seekers have Templar abilities?

 

Also, regarding that black hole spell, he was using it against undead. Who's to say a thinking enemy couldn't have conceived a way to stay rooted until it was done?

[Retconnaissance]

It's probably a bad idea to look for answers within the game mechanics, but chevaliers apparently have Champion spec or something similar(right?), and Walking Fortress ability grants complete damage immunity for some time, so yeah.

[Aimi]

It's probably a bad idea to look for answers within the game mechanics,

sure is

[The Baconer]

This is all relative to the strength of the mage in question but why wouldn't one be able to just dodge a stream of fire

 

Go ahead, try to NFL juke a homemade flamethrower in real life and tell us how it works out.

 

 

block a fist of stone unless it is being thrown with superhuman strength which hasn't been demonstrated.

 

Everything magic does is supernatural. Simply creating a rock out of nothing and propelling it with an invisible force is superhuman.

 

If it can knock someone off their feet, it can break an arm when they try to block it.

 

 

We don't even know if a mage is capable of quickly shifting the direction of their stream of fire. Corypheus wasn't. That mage in DA2's final battle also kept her fire stream still despite the fact the Templar facing her was kneeling and putting his shield between himself and the flames. All she had to do was angle it downwards and he would be taking the full brunt of it but she didn't.

 

Mages routinely do things infinitely more complex in their spells.

 

Blocking fire is another matter. I admit my knowledge there is lacking, not certain what would realistically happen if you tried to block a stream of fire with a metal shield.

 

It would work badly. It's working off of the video-game and movie logic of "as long as you don't touch the fire/lava, you're fine". Think of the heat that emanates from a campfire, how one has to sit just far enough away so that it does not cause discomfort. It's like that, only much, much more intense. Then of course is the question of the shield even providing enough coverage to block the actual flames in the first place.

 

 

If the mage is throwing fireballs, it shouldn't be too difficult to dodge them. We haven't seen any spells in DAO reaching supersonic speeds.

 

Again, video game logic, where inertia doesn't exist. On one hand, you have to close in on the mage to kill them and prevent further spellcasting, but at the same time, shift your weight to try and dodge every spell they cast in the meantime. Compound that with the extra potential weight from armor, shield, etc. I don't think it's at all impossible to dodge a spell's projectile, but it isn't by any means a reliable tactic.

 

 

Lightning. Erimond took some blasts head on and survived them. I'm guessing without prolonged exposure and unless you're fighting a mage of Warden Commander level, you should also survive long enough to close in.

 

Said lightning blast left him crumpled on the ground with burns and probably a loss of muscle control, which would be the point of using lightning. It doesn't matter if you can survive a few hits or not if you're disabled.

 

 

Rhys is more powerful than most mages and Lambert still proceeded to break it with a single blow before blocking magical bolts.

Remind me, according to Cassandra, do Seekers have Templar abilities?

 

Also, regarding that black hole spell, he was using it against undead. Who's to say a thinking enemy couldn't have conceived a way to stay rooted until it was done?

 

Seekers have anti-magical abilities. 

 

Rooted is immobile, and thus not closing range with the mage. Even if it doesn't kill them, it serves the purpose of area denial while it is active.

[Eliastion]

I think we need to be careful of applying too much real-world logic. Shifting to storytelling (away from game mechanics) is ok, but when we go to level of scientific strictness where most films and novels give up on realism...

Either way, one thing that would make chevalier's abilities to fight mages more plausible would be their armors. Remember, this all takes place in world where magic is very real and Chevaliers are trained to fight it. It's also a world where there are many strange things your armor can be made of. It could be that their armors either don't conduct electricity well, for example, or just the opposite: they are so great conductors that any lightning spell is immidiately grounded with little heat generated in the process. The metal could also be poor heat conductor and/or have padding created with fire spells in mind...

Either way, above all else I'd stick with the idea that realism, in general, is sacrificed for things to be cooler. Mages can be defeated by skilled warriors, so you hand-wave the applications of magic that are too cool to give up but should (if working as advertised) give mages too big of an advantage. After all, even where there is no magic, fighting generally tends to sacrifice a lot of realism for the coolness factor...

[Addai]

Next you'll be asking for an charter of human rights agreed upon by every nation in Thedas.
Somewhat unrealistic.

Thedas can't be enlightened? Or just Orlais?

[The Baconer]

Either way, one thing that would make chevalier's abilities to fight mages more plausible would be their armors. Remember, this all takes place in world where magic is very real and Chevaliers are trained to fight it. It's also a world where there are many strange things your armor can be made of. It could be that their armors either don't conduct electricity well, for example, or just the opposite: they are so great conductors that any lightning spell is immidiately grounded with little heat generated in the process. The metal could also be poor heat conductor and/or have padding created with fire spells in mind...

 

If anything like this were mentioned, I would have noted it, as there are materials already acknowledged to have special properties (like Silverite). At this point it would be a rather ham-fisted plot convenience to introduce something like that, especially when we could also just say this dude's armor is decked out in anti-magic runes.

 

 

Either way, above all else I'd stick with the idea that realism, in general, is sacrificed for things to be cooler. Mages can be defeated by skilled warriors, so you hand-wave the applications of magic that are too cool to give up but should (if working as advertised) give mages too big of an advantage. After all, even where there is no magic, fighting generally tends to sacrifice a lot of realism for the coolness factor...

 

Mages, on average, are supposed to have too big of an advantage. It's part of the reason why they are scrutinized and separated from regular society in most parts of Thedas. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a non-Templar defeating a mage, as long as it doesn't amount to conveniently forgetting certain elements of (both real and in-universe) physics, or relying on the mage to hold an idiot ball and calling it a "technique".

[Eliastion]

Mages, on average, are supposed to have too big of an advantage. It's part of the reason why they are scrutinized and separated from regular society in most parts of Thedas. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a non-Templar defeating a mage, as long as it doesn't amount to conveniently forgetting certain elements of (both real and in-universe) physics, or relying on the mage to hold an idiot ball and calling it a "technique".

This doesn't seem to be true for standard issue mages at least - they seem to be comparable with high-tier warriors (which means that their advantage here isn't all that big, since they actually do spend a lot time training, just not with weapons). There is the "magefighting" codex in DA:I as well as that DA:O (I think) codex piece about senior enchanter who got into trouble for giving basic training with mundane weapons (presumably so that the apprentices know what to expect rather than make warriors out of them, but he was motivated by how easily they could die to an armed enemy).

The most powerful mages may be very hard to bring down, but in general mages aren't that big of a threat. Their value on the battlefield lies elsewhere, most important being their support capabilities and their AOE, meaning that they can provide devastating "artillery" support if protected properly.

I guess if we really wanted to follow that (apparently intended, looking at the codex entries) balance, I guess that the main drawback of magic in direct combat would be casting time - but because in the game it's balanced by other means (namely the abstract HP that make everyone live comfortably through a couple sword hits or weaker spells) it just gets messed up in the books and we end up with dumb mages and lucky warriors. Imagine the situation with Michel if casting times were treated as major issue: the infamous snowballs would be in fact something like the basic staff attack, simple bolts optimalized for instant casting, not because they were a good choice of spell/attack but because they were the only thing she could conjure fast enough. And then using shield would suddenly become much more viable: it can't protect you from many spells, but it can protect you from that basic bolt attack which in most cases would be the only thing a mage can throw at you before you get to him.

Of course, this construction starts falling apart with instant or almost-instant spells that don't rely on blockable bolts, especially fast AOE spells... And, even though I didn't read the books, I guess they do what many fantasy books do when they don't care to much and spells just appear whenever the author feels like and have a casting time of however-long-the-author-needs-to-at-this-particular-moment... Leading to heaps of fridge logic of "why the hell didn't he/she cast that other spell he/she apparently knows and has more than enough time to cast".

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm surprised I haven't seen killabee talking about how bad chevaliers are yet.

Late to the party am I?

 

Chevaliers are a force to be reckoned with, I won't lie. But they're not badasses. Anyone that walks around killing unarmed innocents, within their own territory even, with no real repercussions for their actions, AND drunk... are babyback *******. I don't care what excuse you give, this wasn't to show that you could obey any order, or to steel your resolve, this was just to cement their place in society above elves and commoners in general, and to let that point hit home for everyone, especially the chevalier.

 

That's it. IF this was for any other purpose, they wouldn't get drunk as if the evil sweaty swine were celebrating, which it seems very much like they were, since this is at the end of their training. No, chevalier are not badasses. You want to know badass?

 

The Ferelden yokels that sent their asses packing with their tails between their legs back to Orlais' frilly cupcakes and ugly ass outfits. The doglords that charged these guys with nothing but their bare hands and didn't give a damn about their own lives anymore, because Orlesian assholes were THAT unbearable. THOSE guys are badass. There's nothing badass about beating down on people that can't defend themselves, and no fighting darkspawn and demons doesn't make up for it.

 

Chevalier are no better than obese pimply larpers, pretending to have honor when half of them wouldn't know honor if the maker slapped them on their ass with it. Screw chevaliers.