I’m nearing my 5th playthrough and each time I keep hearing EVERYONE tell me that Loghain’s behavior is not realistic. Do you think he is possessed-controlled? This would account for the darkspawn at the tower of Ostagar.
It seems like there is a 1-to-1 correspondence with DAO and ME3 where TIM is “indoctrinated” by the enemy.
Thoughts?
I think he was in control of himself. I never read the book (I think it was the Stolen Throne that gives you his background) so I might have a different impression if I read that but from just playing the game, I think his decisions were truly his own.
I think he was in control of himself. I never read the book (I think it was the Stolen Throne that gives you his background) so I might have a different impression if I read that but from just playing the game, I think his decisions were truly his own.
I haven't read the books either, just have played Origins a number of times. I agree that I don't think he was under any mind control, blood magic, what have you; his decisions were his own. I think he believed Ferelden had to maintain it's sovereignty at any cost, which meant he probably felt justified with his decisions right up until the end.
There was absolutely a planned plot in this direction, but my impression is that it was scrapped.
Despite his brutal actions and responses to anyone that gets in his way and his hatred of Orlais leading him down a damning path, all of it was committed of his own free will and i believe his behavior is realistic. Unless i'm mistaken, he's always been the soldier, commander type and his embroiled emotions at Denerim during the aftermath of Ostagar and losing the landsmeet to the Warden show he's defniitely not the political/diplomatic type.
"assuming direct control."
I think "in control" might be the wrong word (if anything, his anti-Orlesian/anti-Warden paranoia is in control of him) but I felt like he was definitely thinking for himself throughout the game.
There was absolutely a planned plot in this direction, but my impression is that it was scrapped.
That's the first I've heard of that. Can you elaborate?
I’m nearing my 5th playthrough and each time I keep hearing EVERYONE tell me that Loghain’s behavior is not realistic. Do you think he is possessed-controlled? This would account for the darkspawn at the tower of Ostagar.
It seems like there is a 1-to-1 correspondence with DAO and ME3 where TIM is “indoctrinated” by the enemy.
Thoughts?
I think Loghain's characterization is very realistic, especially if you've read The Stolen Throne and The Calling. It gives a lot of backstory to character and decision-making. For example, leaving Cailan on the field at Ostagar. During the rebellion he and Maric were ambushed and Loghain was convinced (I can't remember by whom) to get to him and rescue him. Once Loghain got to him however, Maric was angry and made Loghain promise to never put another man above Ferelden. Maric was ready to sacrifice himself for the good of Ferelden because he knew the rebellion would continue. I see leaving Cailan on the field at Ostagar as keeping that promise.
I'm not sure where the idea would come from that he's acting out of character. He's paranoid and he fumbles at politics, but his paranoia has cause and his lack of political savvy is quite certainly based on the fact that he wasn't raised to deal with that. He commands people, has most of his life, and expects them to do what he tells them to do. That doesn't work in politics.
That's the first I've heard of that. Can you elaborate?
It was on Mr Gaider's blog where he was talking about ideas being changed and/or scrapped:
"This is the point where a lot of stuff gets discarded or changed....Did you know the darkspawn were once intelligent, and that Loghain was once mind-controlled by the Archdemon? Did you know the final battle once took place at Redcliffe, with a one-on-one duel with Loghain? Or that the battle with the Archdemon once took place in the heart of the Blight down in the Korcari Wilds, and the Archdemon wasn’t even a dragon? You also needed a [temp name] artifact to kill it, which only later got replaced by the “only Grey Wardens can kill the Archdemon” thing— ten iterations of trying to figure in this foozle artifact without it seeming completely lame only to eventually realize the problem was the artifact and not how we were introducing it."
I think mind control plots are totally lame, though, so I'm glad they didn't go that direction.
Loghain clearly became paranoid regarding Orlais because of the war.
Guest_Faerunner_*
I don't think he was brainwashed by an enemy or possessed by a demon, if that's what you're saying. He was paranoid and kept deluding himself, but I think he made the choices of his own accord.
Personally, I think his actions being "unrealistic" just comes from the writers changing their minds about his motivation many times throughout making the game.
It was on Mr Gaider's blog where he was talking about ideas being changed and/or scrapped:
"This is the point where a lot of stuff gets discarded or changed....Did you know the darkspawn were once intelligent, and that Loghain was once mind-controlled by the Archdemon?
Ohhhhhh.... Is that why you can get the line, when clearing the Tower, that insinuates that Loghain knew the darkspawn would be there?
Ohhhhhh.... Is that why you can get the line, when clearing the Tower, that insinuates that Loghain knew the darkspawn would be there?
Don't know. I don't remember that line.
Don't know. I don't remember that line.
I had a screenshot of it at one point, but I think you have to have 30 Cunning which basically means putting all your points into Cunning to get it that early. When Alistair asks about the darkspawn flooding the Tower, you have the option of replying with something like, "Unless you knew they were going to be here." The heavy implication is that Loghain knew, that that's why the Tower was sealed prior to the battle, and that he knew you were walking into a trap.
Ohhhhhh.... Is that why you can get the line, when clearing the Tower, that insinuates that Loghain knew the darkspawn would be there?
It doesn't actually say that. It says "How could this have happened unless the Darkspawn knew the plan?" or something along those lines.
Given how the Wardens tap into the Darkspawn hive-mind, and how Urthemiel can tap into our minds through our dreams, it seems logical to assume the reason the plan failed was because the Archdemon perused Duncan's/Alistair's/our thoughts.
Thanks for your comments & thoughts.
Just to be clear on my original question though ("Loghain’s behavior is not realistic") -- I meant to say that people like the Arl, the queen, and others that know Loghain say something like "I know Loghain, but that's not like him" or "why would he do something like that?"
Obviously with comments like this (from MANY of those that know & are close to him) -- something isn't right. As you dialogue with Alistair when taking the tower of Ostagar, there was a hint of an "inside job" regarding how the darkspawn got wind of it.
IMHO, if Loghain knew it was a suicide mission at Ostagar (as mentioned by the guy who got stabbed -- which starts the "return to Ostagar" mission) -- then Loghain could have easily defended his withdrawal position on that point ALONE. I would have supported Loghain 100% on his decision. However he did not have to declare the Wardens outlaws and poison the Arl. Doing that is ONLY to the advantage of the darkspawn.
Seems to me there is more going on than SUDDENLY he gets "personal ambition" -- considering his military background and previous battles with the darkspawn. If you study any history, you know the enemy must focus their target on the leadership. This leverage is fighting smarter instead of harder.
During the rebellion he and Maric were ambushed and Loghain was convinced (I can't remember by whom) to get to him and rescue him. Once Loghain got to him however, Maric was angry and made Loghain promise to never put another man above Ferelden.
It was Rowan :>
It doesn't actually say that. It says "How could this have happened unless the Darkspawn knew the plan?" or something along those lines.
Given how the Wardens tap into the Darkspawn hive-mind, and how Urthemiel can tap into our minds through our dreams, it seems logical to assume the reason the plan failed was because the Archdemon perused Duncan's/Alistair's/our thoughts.
Now that's an interesting conjecture. I admit I did wonder, during my first playthrough, whether or not someone (Loghain seemed like the obvious suspect at the time) had tipped off the darkspawn somehow, but it never occurred to me that it could be through the Wardens. If it was, then it makes the most sense that it would be through Duncan; he was close to his Calling at Ostagar.
Or maybe it's just that I don't like the thought of either Alistair or my Wardens being used that way. Either way, this adds a new wrinkle to the game.
Now that's an interesting conjecture. I admit I did wonder, during my first playthrough, whether or not someone (Loghain seemed like the obvious suspect at the time) had tipped off the darkspawn somehow, but it never occurred to me that it could be through the Wardens. If it was, then it makes the most sense that it would be through Duncan; he was close to his Calling at Ostagar.
Or maybe it's just that I don't like the thought of either Alistair or my Wardens being used that way. Either way, this adds a new wrinkle to the game.
Something new to debate! Duncan was a traitor who gave the plan to the darkspawn simply because he was at the meeting itself and Uthemriel was tapping in and paying attention, and Duncan never noticed!
lol.
It doesn't actually say that. It says "How could this have happened unless the Darkspawn knew the plan?" or something along those lines.
Given how the Wardens tap into the Darkspawn hive-mind, and how Urthemiel can tap into our minds through our dreams, it seems logical to assume the reason the plan failed was because the Archdemon perused Duncan's/Alistair's/our thoughts.
That was my thought too. He does it late in the game while the Warden is gathering an army to oppose him, in order to find the Wardens and end them. Why not earlier?
That was my thought too. He does it late in the game while the Warden is gathering an army to oppose him, in order to find the Wardens and end them. Why not earlier?
Coordinating darkspawn in the deeproads, rebuilding numbers lost at Ostagar and leading the horde on the surface. By the end of the game, closer to when he invades our mind, Ferelden is largely covered by the blight.
Coordinating darkspawn in the deeproads, rebuilding numbers lost at Ostagar and leading the horde on the surface. By the end of the game, closer to when he invades our mind, Ferelden is largely covered by the blight.
I was talking about Ostagar itself; right before a battle that will potentially allow him to largely cover Ferelden with the Blight is an excellent time to listen in using the Hive-mind. (Or "pull a Riordan," as we might call it.)
Surprised NOBODY has stated the obvious. Loghain made the right choice to pull his men or they would have ALL died. Many of the bad things Loghain did later on, like with the elves, were due to Howe's influence. Howe was the really evil one and his ambitions lead him to manipulate Loghain into doing some of the real bad things. But Loghain was right to pull his troops.
Surprised NOBODY has stated the obvious. Loghain made the right choice to pull his men or they would have ALL died. Many of the bad things Loghain did later on, like with the elves, were due to Howe's influence. Howe was the really evil one and his ambitions lead him to manipulate Loghain into doing some of the real bad things. But Loghain was right to pull his troops.
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