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[fhs33721]

He was as much in control of himself as the average person that suffers from unhealthy, chronic paranoia is.

 

Surprised NOBODY has stated the obvious.  Loghain made the right choice to pull his men or they would have ALL died.   

While true it is extremely badly presented in game. Unless you bought the return to Ostagar DLC you'll most likely never know it. Multiple characters insist that Loghains retreat was what lost the battle while those that say differently usually try to kill you even if you behave perfectly civil and try to avoid a fight. Loghain utters suspicious oneliners like "Yes Caillan it will be a glorious moment for as all." while smiling ominously at the camera. He sides with Howe, who shortly before Loghains perceived betrayal pulled of stunts that would most likely have him severly punished by Caillan, making it seem like those two plotted this all beforehand.

So basically in the vanilla game everything looks exactly like Loghain made a shameless powergrab due to his increasing paranoia of an orlaisian invasion that never happend. So at the landsmeet you have little to no reason to spare  Loghain  because up to this point it looked like he was just a total jerk, resulting in the outcome that many (if not most) players most likely execute him because Alistair (who is a overall rather decent person) leaves otherwise.

[TEWR]

 

 

 while smiling ominously at the camera

 

No, he didn't. You can rewatch the scene if you doubt me but he doesn't.

[fhs33721]

No, he didn't. You can rewatch the scene if you doubt me but he doesn't.

I stand corrected, he did indeed not smile. He just ominously looked at the camera while uttering suspicious oneliners.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He was as much in control of himself as the average person that suffers from unhealthy, chronic paranoia is.

Sounds about right.

 

 

So basically in the vanilla game everything looks exactly like Loghain made a shameless powergrab due to his increasing paranoia of an orlaisian invasion that never happend.

I'm not going to go into how I got spoiled before playing Ostagar for the first time, but suffice it to say Loghain quitting the field wasn't exactly a surprise when it happened. I basically spent the entire climb up the Tower waiting for the whole thing to have been a waste of time. What did surprise me was when Alistair said that "We've surely missed the signal" and implied that we were lighting it at entirely the wrong time in the hopes that the battle could be salvaged; the spoiler had been phrased to suggest an unambiguous, unjustifiable betrayal. What really surprised me was that Alistair acted like it was an unambiguous, unjustifiable betrayal about five minutes or so afterwards. There is evidence against Loghain being a mustache twirling villain in the game. I saw it going in blind, without even having read the Word Of Gaider or having any other reason to think it was there.

[Monica21]

So basically in the vanilla game everything looks exactly like Loghain made a shameless powergrab due to his increasing paranoia of an orlaisian invasion that never happend.

 

Entirely subjective. Many people played the vanilla game and came to an entirely different conclusion prior to Return to Ostagar. There were twice as many legions of Chevaliers on the Ferelden border as the number that took Ferelden 80 years previous, just ready to march in with the Wardens. That alone was enough to lend credence to the idea that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.

[fhs33721]

Entirely subjective. Many people played the vanilla game and came to an entirely different conclusion prior to Return to Ostagar. There were twice as many legions of Chevaliers on the Ferelden border as the number that took Ferelden 80 years previous, just ready to march in with the Wardens. That alone was enough to lend credence to the idea that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.

Doesn't change the fact that in the vanilla game up until the landsmeet there is more that speaks for Loghain trying to pull of an actual power grab than any other conclusion. It turns out to be wrong in Return to Ostagar or if you recruit him, but up until either of these two points Loghain for the most part comes off as if he planned the whole thing together with Howe.

[dragonflight288]

Doesn't change the fact that in the vanilla game up until the landsmeet there is more that speaks for Loghain trying to pull of an actual power grab than any other conclusion. It turns out to be wrong in Return to Ostagar or if you recruit him, but up until either of these two points Loghain for the most part comes off as if he planned the whole thing together with Howe.

 

as Riverdaleswhiteflash said, and I saw this in my first playthrough as well but didn't think too much about it at the time (I joined the Loghain band-wagon late,) but Alistair's comment that we surely missed the signal does imply that we were hoping we'd salvage the battle, and thus acts as evidence against the idea that the retreat was pre-planned and many gamers left Ostagar thinking Loghain was right to retreat. Especially those who took a look around and noticed the enemy numbers.

 

 

That's a....lot of darkspawn. 

[Riven326]

 
It was on Mr Gaider's blog where he was talking about ideas being changed and/or scrapped:
 
"This is the point where a lot of stuff gets discarded or changed....Did you know the darkspawn were once intelligent, and that Loghain was once mind-controlled by the Archdemon? Did you know the final battle once took place at Redcliffe, with a one-on-one duel with Loghain? Or that the battle with the Archdemon once took place in the heart of the Blight down in the Korcari Wilds, and the Archdemon wasn’t even a dragon? You also needed a [temp name] artifact to kill it, which only later got replaced by the “only Grey Wardens can kill the Archdemon” thing— ten iterations of trying to figure in this foozle artifact without it seeming completely lame only to eventually realize the problem was the artifact and not how we were introducing it."

 

I think mind control plots are totally lame, though, so I'm glad they didn't go that direction.

And yet they somehow thought the crucible in ME3 was okay.

[phaonica]

And yet they somehow thought the crucible in ME3 was okay.

 

Different writing teams, I think.

[dragonflight288]

Different writing teams, I think.

 

There were different writing and development teams. 

 

Casey Hudson headed the Mass Effect games.

 

David Gaider lead the writing team for Dragon Age. 

[DinkyD]

as Riverdaleswhiteflash said, and I saw this in my first playthrough as well but didn't think too much about it at the time (I joined the Loghain band-wagon late,) but Alistair's comment that we surely missed the signal does imply that we were hoping we'd salvage the battle, and thus acts as evidence against the idea that the retreat was pre-planned and many gamers left Ostagar thinking Loghain was right to retreat. Especially those who took a look around and noticed the enemy numbers.

 

 

That's a....lot of darkspawn. 

 

 

I was more impressed by the size of Loghain's army. 

[dragonflight288]

I was more impressed by the size of Loghain's army. The one he retreated.

 

You mean this force that we don't see how big they actually are?

 

 

Sure, there are torches in the background moving, but the real question is if there are enough of them to go well over the horizon of the Kokari Wilds just to match the darkspawn numbers. 

[DinkyD]

You mean this force that we don't see how big they actually are?

 

 

Sure, there are torches in the background moving, but the real question is if there are enough of them to go well over the horizon of the Kokari Wilds just to match the darkspawn numbers. 

 

Er no, when Ser Cutharian orders the retreat - the whole screen horizon is thick with their numbers

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Er no, when Ser Cutharian orders the retreat - the whole screen horizon is thick with their numbers

That is the scene where Ser Cauthrien orders the retreat. Take a closer look at the helmetless soldier with the yellow design on her shield. And yes, the horizon is thick with human soldiers. That horizon does seem to be a lot closer than the one Dragonflight showed us, however.

[DinkyD]

That is the scene where Ser Cauthrien orders the retreat. Take a closer look at the soldier with the yellow sigil on her shield. And yes, the horizon is thick with human soldiers. That horizon does seem to be a lot closer than the one Dragonflight showed us, however.

 

But a lot thicker. and the soldiers continue to move from the side.  So if I post a screen shot do I win the internet? So you agree, no conclusions can be drawn?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But a lot thicker. and the soldiers continue to move from the side.  So if I post a screen shot do I win the internet? So you agree, no conclusions can be drawn?

That's the opposite of what I agree with.

 

Edit: Jokes aside: We see human soldiers more than fill a very close-up shot of Loghain and Cauthrien, and the darkspawn more than fill up a screen of the entire Ostagar valley. The darkspawn column has to be at least a mile or two long. Do you really think the scene of Loghain's retreat is evidence that Loghain has an army to match what we see of the darkspawn horde? Especially considering that the darkspawn have ogres and emissaries?

[Monica21]

That's the opposite of what I agree with.

 

Edit: Jokes aside: We see human soldiers more than fill a very close-up shot of Loghain and Cauthrien, and the darkspawn more than fill up a screen of the entire Ostagar valley. The darkspawn column has to be at least a mile or two long. Do you really think the scene of Loghain's retreat is evidence that Loghain has an army to match what we see of the darkspawn horde? Especially considering that the darkspawn have ogres and emissaries?

 

And have already gotten behind the Ferelden lines by overtaking the Tower of Ishal?

[DinkyD]

That's the opposite of what I agree with.

 

Edit: Jokes aside: We see human soldiers more than fill a very close-up shot of Loghain and Cauthrien, and the darkspawn more than fill up a screen of the entire Ostagar valley. The darkspawn column has to be at least a mile or two long. Do you really think the scene of Loghain's retreat is evidence that Loghain has an army to match what we see of the darkspawn horde? Especially considering that the darkspawn have ogres and emissaries?

 

And the Ostagar army has mages etc - it's all speculative. Do you really think a column of unknown darkspawn strength proves anything either? If it's a mile or two long, then so was Loghain's army wide  - my evidence. You might as well hold your thumb up to the moon and try to prove it's size. Honestly, it's far too nebulous.

[dragonflight288]

And the Ostagar army has mages etc - it's all speculative. Do you really think a column of unknown darkspawn strength proves anything either? If it's a mile or two long, then so was Loghain's army wide  - my evidence. You might as well hold your thumb up to the moon and try to prove it's size. Honestly, it's far too nebulous.

 

7 mages only.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And the Ostagar army has mages etc - it's all speculative. Do you really think a column of unknown darkspawn strength proves anything either? If it's a mile or two long, then so was Loghain's army wide  - my evidence. You might as well hold your thumb up to the moon and try to prove it's size. Honestly, it's far too nebulous.

The Ostagar army has how many mages? And how many soldiers the size of ogres?

 

And even if we assume raw numbers can beat that, they aren't shown to have anything like what the darkspawn are shown to have. The darkspawn column stretches into the Wilds past the horizon from a perspective a long distance away from them. Loghain's army stretches out towards the horizon in a shot framed much closer to them. If you want to argue that those are even remotely comparable, make it good.

[DinkyD]

And you've counted the emmisaries? The shot only shows a portion of Loghain's army it moves past already much thicker than the dark spawn line. Look, I've just argued it in the same terms you have. We'll just have to disagree. My only point is that we both can conclude nothing.

[dragonflight288]

And you've counted the emmisaries? The shot only shows a portion of Loghain's army it moves past already much thicker than the dark spawn line. Look, I've just argued it in the same terms you have. We'll just have to disagree. My only point is that we both can conclude nothing.

 

And the fact that we can't conclude anything is the point. Based on that screen shot, we can't compare it realistically to the darkspawn line. So we have to rely on all the other facets. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And the fact that we can't conclude anything is the point. Based on that screen shot, we can't compare it realistically to the darkspawn line. So we have to rely on all the other facets. 

The at least mile-long column at least seems indicative of something.

[thesuperdarkone2]

No, Loghain was secretly a mage and was possessed. You meet an envy demon that possessed him. Meet Niahgol