83 réponses à ce sujet

[b09boy]

Loghain's motivations were fine.  The game took an incredibly subtle approach with his character that nearly no story ever does.  It completely allows you the player to sift through some of the stories to figure things out for yourself, up to the point of actually speaking with Loghain, if you even go down that path.

 

Thing is, many of Loghain's actions are either seen through a filter of other men or confused because of surrounding events.  For instance, the two people in your party that have any opinion on Loghain are Alistair and Wynne.  Alistair is choked up about Duncan and immediately latches onto someone, anyone to blame and, by the end if confronted, clearly has severe tunnel vision on the subject while Wynne is such a fierce do-gooder trying to save everyone.  Every shot and every line of dialogue seems intended to build this character as a mustache twirler, yet the second you sit down and ask why, none of it makes sense from that angle.  A classic example there is the poisoning of Eamon and the situation at Redcliffe.  The game tries to make you believe at a glance that Loghain was responsible for the entire mess, and later never states otherwise, leaving the feeling festering.  Not helping is that there's the idea that Loghain was actually trying to kill Eamon.  But then that doesn't quite make sense either when you think about it.  The only way the entire situation makes sense is if he was trying to keep Eamon ALIVE, but the story never holds our hands and outright states this.  Much the same with Uldred.  How many people would have been ecstatic with the idea of freed mages?  But no, we're instead spoonfed the idea that he influenced Uldred and suddenly there were abominations, and then they allow this idea to fester without ever outright stating his innocence in the matter.

 

It's these fun little tidbits that both help and hurt the story.  So many think that the entire Orgins plot is so generic, when it's more like and incredibly deep pool of foggy water.  You don't know how deep it goes and what's under until you actually dive, and you have to make that decision to dive to really get into it.  Otherwise it looks like just another shallow pool.

[Riven326]

Entirely subjective. Many people played the vanilla game and came to an entirely different conclusion prior to Return to Ostagar. There were twice as many legions of Chevaliers on the Ferelden border as the number that took Ferelden 80 years previous, just ready to march in with the Wardens. That alone was enough to lend credence to the idea that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.

This is true. Nice DAI character, btw.

[Personette]

I do headcanon that the Tevinter blood mages who were gathering elves from the alienage did a number on Loghain. It's the only thing I can't make sense of at all, taking his general worldview & past experiences into account. 

[TEWR]

I do headcanon that the Tevinter blood mages who were gathering elves from the alienage did a number on Loghain. It's the only thing I can't make sense of at all, taking his general worldview & past experiences into account. 

 

I can. The treasury was nearly bankrupt due to the civil war the Bannorn started and Howe's embezzling. Couple that with the lack of the Circle on his side (as Lucrosians/Formari could be good for bumping up the war chest) and perhaps even the lack of Orzammar as well (a place to trade with) he needed a quick fix. Howe suggests to him that he engage with the Tevinters and sell the Elves to them to get the war chest back up (given Howe's attitude towards Elves it's likely he floated the idea to Loghain more then Loghain just thought "Hey! I'll sell the Elves!").

 

Loghain signed off on it (which is still something to hold him accountable for) and a few dozen Elves were shipped out by the time the Warden stopped it, and the treasury was only 1/3 full (as Loghain points out). His mind is to the point where the nation is about to be lost due to the Blight that he couldn't stand against when he wanted to (after Ostagar) because he had to focus on a bunch of short-sighted fools, and he figures that the Elves would be better off alive and living as slaves then dead in the part of Denerim that is extremely indefensible (despite having a wall it is actually the worst part of the city structurally speaking) and without hope.

 

Loghain will even tell you that his plan was to get the treasury completely full through this method, resupply the army, and then supply the remaining Elves in the Alienage so they could defend themselves.

 

Now, I don't think the quest was done all that well -- as it's more for shock value and quickly forgotten about and it goes back to the player fantasy thing I was talking about (as the larger reasons leading to it are only brought up by Cauthrien and Loghain, both of whom can be killed -- but the basic premise I can understand. 

 

Even though he suffered under the weight of Orlesian oppression where they sold Elves like cattle (more for the lulz then any reason like Loghain had) and he took the Night Elves under his wing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But no, we're instead spoonfed the idea that he influenced Uldred and suddenly there were abominations, and then they allow this idea to fester without ever outright stating his innocence in the matter.

It's been two weeks, so this might be a bit necromantic, but.. He is allowed to snark to Wynne about how stupid the idea that he would do this on purpose is, and she doesn't try to argue against the point. If that helps.

[springacres]

It's been two weeks, so this might be a bit necromantic, but.. He is allowed to snark to Wynne about how stupid the idea that he would do this on purpose is, and she doesn't try to argue against the point. If that helps.

I view that situation as more of an "if Loghain hadn't promised this" scenario.  While we don't know if things would have played out differently had Loghain not offered greater autonomy to the Circle, I have my doubts that Uldred would have tried to take it over without Loghain's offer of support.  But that could be my headcanon talking.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I view that situation as more of an "if Loghain hadn't promised this" scenario.  While we don't know if things would have played out differently had Loghain not offered greater autonomy to the Circle, I have my doubts that Uldred would have tried to take it over without Loghain's offer of support.  But that could be my headcanon talking.

Uldred probably wouldn't have done what he did without Loghain's offer. (Or at least, not right then.) That's not the same as saying that it's fair to blame Loghain for Uldred's actions.

[springacres]

True, and I doubt Loghain would have approved of Uldred's actions in any case.  In fact, it seems entirely possible that he wouldn't have made that deal at all had he known Uldred was a blood mage.

 

Then again, maybe he would have.  A power-hungry paranoiac is, by definition, somewhat irrational, and Loghain might have decided that blood mages were a perfect weapon to use against his enemies.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

True, and I doubt Loghain would have approved of Uldred's actions in any case.  In fact, it seems entirely possible that he wouldn't have made that deal at all had he known Uldred was a blood mage.

 

Then again, maybe he would have.  A power-hungry paranoiac is, by definition, somewhat irrational, and Loghain might have decided that blood mages were a perfect weapon to use against his enemies.

I think we have decent evidence to suggest that Loghain wouldn't overmuch have cared that Uldred was a blood mage. Loghain makes clear, however, that he was not happy to learn what Uldred had done to the Circle.

[Lavaeolus]

Loghain also uses Jowan, who is officially a blood mage. Loghain seems pretty neutral and distant on the subject of mages.

Of course, had Loghain known Uldred specifically was a mage one confrontation away from turning into an abomination and destroying the entire Circle, the alliance would probably have not been made. Well, presumably.

[TEWR]

Loghain migh've still made the alliance, but with someone he gauged as being more... stable. There were six other mages present (seven counting us if a MW) and any of the five non-Wynne ones could've been amenable to it.

[Chewin]

I must say--I admire your determination of defending Loghain after all this time, TEWR.

[TEWR]

Ah, what can I say? The man deserves to have people on his side lol. 

 

I admire the Roy Mustang avatar, even if the most immediate thing that comes to mind is TINY MINISKIRTS. 

 

And then the FEELS moments of him at that funeral. Terrible day for rain indeed T_T

[Chewin]

Hah, that indeed.

Yes, Roy is great. Started with Brotherhood recently and needed a break from Xanatos for awhile. And true, dem feels with Hughes!

[springacres]

Ah, what can I say? The man deserves to have people on his side lol.

He does.  As I've said multiple times, he's a very well-written antagonist - who can be turned into a protagonist if the player/PC wishes.

[Captain Wiseass]

I see no indication that Loghain is anything but completely aware and in control of his actions.

 

Whether or not he's acting rationally is another question, but hey, people don't always do that.

[Vashtari]

If you've spent time to read about Loghain's past, you understand why he went down the path he did. If thinking of him as any real human today, it's understandable but not justifiable. Choices were still made, and I do believe that Howe (being the opportunist he was) had a hand in leading him down his path.

 

But, in times like these I ask myself: What would Xena do? She initially began as a woman fighting for her village. Eventually she became the champion lover of Ares because of her lust for power and war. But one day she chose the path of redemption. I was perfectly fine with killing Howe (curse you, Tim Curry!), but if someone like Xena can go from ruthless to saving others, why not Loghain?

 

Now that right-hand brown-nosing chick at his side. If I could write in something special, let's just say I'd put Zevran to good use. You're betters are talking my ---. Foot. I said foot.

[springacres]

Funny you bring up Ser Cauthrien.  Yeah, she's a jerk in that scene, but it's hard not to sympathize with her all the same.  Here's a group of nobodies, one of whom Eamon claims is Maric's son, and another of whom insults someone she still - despite her doubts - considers a hero at that point.  If that were me, I'd be pissed off enough to insult them right back.  She still strikes me as someone who at least tries to do the right thing, or what she believes is the right thing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Funny you bring up Ser Cauthrien.  Yeah, she's a jerk in that scene, but it's hard not to sympathize with her all the same.  Here's a group of nobodies, one of whom Eamon claims is Maric's son, and another of whom insults someone she still - despite her doubts - considers a hero at that point.  If that were me, I'd be pissed off enough to insult them right back.  She still strikes me as someone who at least tries to do the right thing, or what she believes is the right thing.

Though I can also understand the Warden being annoyed about it. Especially a noble Warden, who technically has no betters standing there until and unless Alistair actually winds up on the throne.

[dragonflight288]

One thing about Cauthrien I think people have griped about is how staunchly loyal to Loghain she is. 

 

I don't consider that a fault, to be loyal to your commander. But it is a fault if your loyalty overrides your reason. 

 

I respect her because she stands up for Loghain despite her doubts and I can see her point of view, but people I've spoken to about her seem to think she's just a Loghain-yes-woman. 

 

I think it's just a flaw with the narrative. We can kill every Loghain supporter we meet, sometimes even if we can avoid it, and there isn't anyone who really challenges our Warden's perspective of Loghain that we can't kill or call blind or whatever.

 

Yes, she questioned Loghain's decision to retreat, but our Warden wasn't in any position to see what was going on and cannot make an unbiased judgement on what happened in the battle. All our Warden knows for sure is we were late lighting the signal and Loghain retreated. Everything else is Alistair inferring a motivation and laying blame for things going south so he could have someone to blame for Duncan's death. 

[springacres]

In the confrontation before the Landsmeet, she comes off as being loyal to Loghain yet hesitant to spill blood for him if she doesn't have to.  I don't fault her for being loyal, not when she admits she has doubts, and it's hard as a player to fault her for being loyal to someone like Loghain.  In Cauthrien's case, loyalty doesn't equal stupidity or blindness.  It's a case where she feels honor bound to support Loghain in spite of her doubts.  That, to me, speaks volumes about her character.

[Vashtari]

Though I can also understand the Warden being annoyed about it. Especially a noble Warden, who technically has no betters standing there until and unless Alistair actually winds up on the throne.

 

As said in this quote, I was also coming from a noble Warden playthrough PoV. With the Warden assuming her brother is alive and well still, the noble Warden is an equal to Cauth. At this point she's just being snooty because the noble Warden is trying to stop Loghain, but can be persuaded to admit to just how far he's gone for his vendetta.

 

Though during the Landsmeet, Loghain shows his true reason for fighting Orlais when he talks about their soldiers violating Ferelden women. Even if you don't know his story already, you can take an educated guess at his driving force. While his intentions of progress are noble, his actions aren't justifiable. I'd say that Cauthrien can agree with that.

 

Personally I wish they made it a vanilla option to persuade Alistair to see reason instead of have him so head-strong that he'd run off. I suppose that may be expecting too much from Alistair with him being sheltered as a Brother before joining the Grey Wardens. At the same time, I'd like to believe he'd be able to think logically after some time alone. Loghain wasn't a slimey opportunist like Howe, who slaughters a whole family just to gain a title. Instead, he honestly thought he was saving his country.

 

I do like how this plot device makes us think, though. It brings up the scenario: would a man like Loghain be easy to forgive if we knew one like him in real life? If given that chance ourselves, would we punish him or offer redemption? Everyone has a story, and seeing one side isn't enough.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I do like how this plot device makes us think, though. It brings up the scenario: would a man like Loghain be easy to forgive if we knew one like him in real life? If given that chance ourselves, would we punish him or offer redemption? Everyone has a story, and seeing one side isn't enough.

I'd probably offer him forgiveness. Unless doing so required me to allow that man to carry arms in the camp I sleep in, and I'd been the one to hand him an utterly humiliating defeat. Because, you know, better safe than sorry there.

 

As for the Human Noble Warden, if we go by the (at the time entirely justified) assumption that Fergus is dead, the HN is technically Loghain's equal rather than Cauthrien's. And of course the DN is arguably second only to Alistair, if the Aeducans are still on the throne of Ferelden's neighboring kingdom. (And I say "arguably" only because Alistair's claim to being royalty doesn't stop being very questionable unless and until the Landsmeet decides to roll with it.)