83 réponses à ce sujet

[BioWareM0d13]

Doesn't change the fact that in the vanilla game up until the landsmeet there is more that speaks for Loghain trying to pull of an actual power grab than any other conclusion. It turns out to be wrong in Return to Ostagar or if you recruit him, but up until either of these two points Loghain for the most part comes off as if he planned the whole thing together with Howe.

 

Exactly!

 

Loghain absolutely planned the whole thing with Howe. The alternative reduces both Howe and Loghain to reckless fools who launch their own separate rebellions without any semblance of a workable plan. 

 

In order for Howe's coup to have any chance of succeeding, he needs royal sanction. He has to be confirmed as Teyrn of Highever. That obviously wasn't going to happen with Cailan, who for all his flaws appeared to be a man of honor, and who counted on the Couslands as his most powerful allies. If Cailan survives Ostagar Howe's coup would have no doubt ended with an army flying a royal banner retaking Highever and sending Howe to dance from the end of a rope. Howe's actions only make sense if he has foreknowledge of Cailan's upcoming demise and can count on support for his betrayal in Denerim. 

 

Loghain is in a similar situation with the Couslands. They are the most powerful noble house in the kingdom and are staunch royalists. Without Howe seizing Highever and murdering the Couslands, they could potentially pose a serious threat to Loghain. With the throne being vacant and no Theirin heir, it is even possible that a landsmeet could name Bryce Cousland as king. Anora was a queen only by marriage so her rule is by no means guaranteed. Any plot to murder the king would be half-cocked without also having a plan to deal with the Couslands.

 

And then there is the timing. It is a little too convenient that Howe's rebellion just happens to coincide with Ostagar and Loghain's coup. All the signs, in my opinion, point to Cailan's betrayal being pre-planned and Howe being privy to that plan. Loghain had to have been an accomplice in the murder of the Couslands.

 

Having said of all that...I know that Gaider later said on his blog after DA:O released that Howe was acting on his own. But I think that 'twitter canon' was not well thought out, diminishes both Loghain and Howe as characters, and does not make a lick of sense considering the events in the game. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Exactly!

 

Loghain absolutely planned the whole thing with Howe. The alternative reduces both Howe and Loghain to reckless fools who launch their own separate rebellions without any semblance of a workable plan. 

That's not precisely the way the Twitter canon represents Loghain, and it's not like there isn't reason to believe Howe is a reckless fool anyway.

[SwobyJ]

Howe acted on his own. But he didn't plan on his own. Howe and Loghain made broader plans and Loghain either unhesitatingly or hesitatingly gave go-aheads, but he didn't get into the most dirty, more direct actions.

 

There's a reason why we can't just ally with Loghain and agree with him outright. Well, there's several obvious ones, but there's also the fact that Loghain is the antagonist. We can just decide whether he's more on the side of 'misunderstood and tragic antagonist' or 'corrupt and scheming villain'.

 

Bioware is no stranger to stories where characters can legitimately be both. Hell, we PLAY AS THAT. Loghain's own actions and motivations can be taken from multiple perspectives, even to himself.

 

But what IS true is that he is falling, while the Warden is a character who is (even if only very slightly, if you play very ruthlessly and anti-social) rising.

 

But he's in control of himself. But even if he set up Ostagar to 'fail' (as in he was ready to cut loose and 'make it on his own'), I don't think he assumed it would go that way. I don't think he assumed any of his outcomes would go the way they did.

[b09boy]

 

You mean the Civil War that Loghain helped start by appointing himself regent right after leaving their king to die, and refusing to step down even when they made their unrest clear and threatened to go to war if he didn't do so.

 

Let's not mince anything here.  Anora was still queen when the civil war broke out and Alistair had yet to be discovered.  Eamon and his brother were busy elsewhere, so who was fighting this civil war, to what end, and who was even leading them?  It's rabble in blind power grabs, not anything specifically against what Loghain stands for.

 

On the bolded: The entire city of Denerim is surrounded by high stone walls. If the darkspawn were to penetrate the outer walls and flood into the streets, everyone inside would be like ducks in a barrel. (Except those in the castles; the prison, Arl of Denerim's estate, the royal castle, etc.) So, no. I don't buy that as an excuse. Just another self-deluding rationalization.

 

The walls run throughout the city and slums are not in a good way.  They run directly beside one of the paths to the upper defenses and an overcrowded location full of tightly packed flammable buildings does not a good defense make.

 

 

Loghain excuses all of his crimes with, "Everything I have done has been to ensure Ferelden's freedom." As far as I'm concerned, that excuse flies out the window the second he starts selling his own citizens into slavery. 

 

That's because you're looking at things the same way Wynne does, in the 'save everyone' mindset that's very noble, but also not all that pragmatic.  Loghain is nothing if not pragmatic, and he's that to a fault.

 

Exactly!

 

Loghain absolutely planned the whole thing with Howe. The alternative reduces both Howe and Loghain to reckless fools who launch their own separate rebellions without any semblance of a workable plan. 

 

Uh...you realize the part you quoted basically just disagreed with you, right?

 

In any case, Loghain didn't plan the Cousland massacre.  He went out of his way to ensure Eamon remained alive and you think he sanctioned the massacre of the entire Cousland family and half their army?  Don't be ridiculous.  You're trying to paint him the same way the game paints him at a glance, as a mustache twirler, but as I explained in another post none of that actually makes sense if you stop and think about it.  Howe used the chaos of war to gamble at a major power grab, and it worked.

 

And before we get into this, I should remind you there's a very major difference between Eamon and Teagan and the Couslands.  Eamon and his brother lived comfortably away from the war and are tied to Cailan by their sister's blood.  There's quite a bit in the series to point out that they are fanatically loyal...but not all that smart or aware.  The Couslands were in the war.  They survived battles which nearly wiped out the entire resistance, and spent decades kicked out of their homes, forced to travel, and see the worst of what what Orlais had to offer.  It's doubtful Loghain saw them in the same fanatical light as the Guerrin brothers.

[BioWareM0d13]

 

Uh...you realize the part you quoted basically just disagreed with you, right?

 

In any case, Loghain didn't plan the Cousland massacre.  He went out of his way to ensure Eamon remained alive and you think he sanctioned the massacre of the entire Cousland family and half their army?  Don't be ridiculous.

 

 

Loghain went out of his way to make sure Eamon remained alive? Sure he did. That's why he was so deathly ill that the only way to cure him from his poisoning was to seek out a legendary sacred artifact that no living person had ever seen.

 

 

 

  You're trying to paint him the same way the game paints him at a glance, as a mustache twirler, but as I explained in another post none of that actually makes sense if you stop and think about it.  Howe used the chaos of war to gamble at a major power grab, and it worked.

 

The game paints Loghain as a villain because he is one. I wouldn't call him a mustache twirler (that description better fits Howe), but he's certainly villainous.

 

Howe's actions don't make a lick of sense unless he knew that Cailan was going to die and that he would be protected from whomever filled the power vacuum. Howe can't hold onto Highever if Cailan lives, which points to Cailan's death being a pre-planned assassination and Howe being privy to Loghain's plans. 

 

Additionally Loghain not having a plan to deal with the Couslands would make him a reckless fool who launches into a coup half-cocked.  Both characters would be reduced to great blundering fools who only manage some level of brief success thanks to the extraordinary good luck of their betrayals miraculously coinciding. Being incompetent but lucky is a lot worse than being clever 'mustache twirlers.'

 

 

And before we get into this, I should remind you there's a very major difference between Eamon and Teagan and the Couslands.  Eamon and his brother lived comfortably away from the war and are tied to Cailan by their sister's blood.  There's quite a bit in the series to point out that they are fanatically loyal...but not all that smart or aware.  The Couslands were in the war.  They survived battles which nearly wiped out the entire resistance, and spent decades kicked out of their homes, forced to travel, and see the worst of what what Orlais had to offer.  It's doubtful Loghain saw them in the same fanatical light as the Guerrin brothers.

 

 

It is stated in DA:O that the Couslands are the most powerful family in the kingdom of Ferelden after the royal family itself, and that they are Theirin loyalists. 

 

Both of those facts make them a threat to Loghain if he plans to kill Cailan. If Loghain doesn't have a plan to deal with them than he is strategically inept and politically incompetent. 

[Jester]

I stand corrected, he did indeed not smile. He just ominously looked at the camera while uttering suspicious oneliners.

Actually, that line comes from him being tired of Cailan's sh*t about glorious battle, riding along with fabled Grey Wardens, and him making the incoming slaughter of thousands of Ferelden soldier seem like a joyous and fun activity. 

[b09boy]

 

Loghain went out of his way to make sure Eamon remained alive? Sure he did. That's why he was so deathly ill that the only way to cure him from his poisoning was to seek out a legendary sacred artifact that no living person had ever seen.

 

 

Gaider's already spoken on the subject, so it's not in the realm of debate.  Think on this for a second.  It's not difficult to kill someone with poison.  It doesn't take weeks or months, and he survives well after the demon leaves.  The entire point of the poison was to knock him out.  As to keeping him alive, you ever wonder why the elf was there?  He states it's if something changes and we are left to assume it had something to do with the demons, but then we later find out Loghain had nothing to do with that.  The elf was actually there to report if Eamon took a turn for the worse so that an antidote could be applied.

 

 

Howe's actions don't make a lick of sense unless he knew that Cailan was going to die and that he would be protected from whomever filled the power vacuum. Howe can't hold onto Highever if Cailan lives, which points to Cailan's death being a pre-planned assassination and Howe being privy to Loghain's plans. 

 

 

We already have writers confirming Loghain had nothing to do with the attack so I have no idea why you're arguing this.  Aside from that, the only way Howe ends up having a chance to fail at his plan is if Duncan was present and there winds up being a survivor.  Otherwise Cailan remains perfectly unaware and Howe can push blame on whatever the hell he wants in the meantime.  That on top of the above point pokes your theory so full of holes it's sinking whatever ship your argument is on.

 

 

Additionally Loghain not having a plan to deal with the Couslands would make him a reckless fool who launches into a coup half-cocked.  Both characters would be reduced to great blundering fools who only manage some level of brief success thanks to the extraordinary good luck of their betrayals miraculously coinciding. Being incompetent but lucky is a lot worse than being clever 'mustache twirlers.'

 

Who says he didn't, and that we never saw the results?  I didn't know the story had to hold your hand every step of the way.

 

 

It is stated in DA:O that the Couslands are the most powerful family in the kingdom of Ferelden after the royal family itself, and that they are Theirin loyalists. 

 

Both of those facts make them a threat to Loghain if he plans to kill Cailan. If Loghain doesn't have a plan to deal with them than he is strategically inept and politically incompetent. 

 

First, we really don't know how far the Couslands would have gone for Cailan, especially in light of what he turned out being.  Second, Loghain NEVER planned to kill Cailan.  That is so entirely and laughably false and just goes to show how far influenced you are under the game's feeling rather than the game's fact.  Which is intentional, mind you, but it just goes to show that you're not putting any further thought into what is actually happening.  You're the sort that's putting more stock into a dramatic cut and Alistair complaining about betrayal than Loghain arguing with Cailan about how foolish it is over and again to be on the front lines of this battle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Howe's actions don't make a lick of sense unless he knew that Cailan was going to die and that he would be protected from whomever filled the power vacuum. Howe can't hold onto Highever if Cailan lives, which points to Cailan's death being a pre-planned assassination and Howe being privy to Loghain's plans. 

 

I think there's ample evidence that trying to make sense of Howe's actions is an exercise in futility.

 

 

Loghain went out of his way to make sure Eamon remained alive? Sure he did. That's why he was so deathly ill that the only way to cure him from his poisoning was to seek out a legendary sacred artifact that no living person had ever seen.

 

 

It is stated in DA:O that the Couslands are the most powerful family in the kingdom of Ferelden after the royal family itself, and that they are Theirin loyalists. 

 

Both of those facts make them a threat to Loghain if he plans to kill Cailan. If Loghain doesn't have a plan to deal with them than he is strategically inept and politically incompetent. 

Gaider's word on the subject, and a one-off comment by one of the demon's illusions on how Eamon is "trapped in [her] web" and that therefore "all is as it should be," both seem to indicate that it was the demon's influence that the Ashes were needed to remedy.

 

As for Loghain not having a plan to deal with the Couslands, it actually does make sense if you accept Loghain's (and Gaider's) word that he did not, in fact, go there intending for Cailan to die. (Which is consistent with Loghain having put some effort into making sure Cailan isn't on the frontlines anyone with half an ounce of sense would realize might have to be burned.)

 

If you're going to refute the Twitter canon, step one is to understand it and step two is try to find places where a proper understanding of the Twitter canon doesn't fit the game. You're going to find step two somewhat difficult.

[Dabrikishaw]

After reading the whole thread, I'm convinced Loghain wasn't in control of himself after Ostagar. He looks far more like Anora and Howe's tool that anything else.