362 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I have to agree though that some backgrounds for the Inquisitor just don't seem to fit all that well. They feel tacked on, as a way to justify the multiple race options.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Before DAI came out, everyone was fully willing to cast hawke into the "fails at everything" category of protagonists, and the sheer amount of threads stating how "hawke should never have been the protag, it should have been the warden" were abound.

 

Now the cycle repeats itself, and its making me really start to think some people here just want to hate the current games no matter what the character does or how they act. Like, I could get hating the inquisitor, but the sudden heel-face turn you folks are showing to hawke is kinda telling its beyond a simple and fair criticism of a character whose writing might not be up to par.

 

I look forward to the next dragon age release, where people put on a new coating of rose colored memory for their glasses, and claim how the new protaganist was just the worse and that the inquisitor should have been the main character of the game.

[Vader20]

You said the Inquisitor has no background, which is patently false. Every race has its own background for non-mages, and mages (at least the human mage, I haven't played elf or Qunari mage) have their own origins.

I know,but those backrounds don't make sense to me... Ok, Qun bodyguard ? It works. Carta Dwarf ? Living on the streets, illegal activities and then goes to the conclave. What ? Why...

 

Elf: Gets sent by the keeper as a spy. Why ? These origin stories raise a looot of questions and lack in detail and it's not just the backgrounds but the conclave itself also. I still don't understand how the divine got captured,  HOW did my char interupt the ritual. How did she end up intereptung it in the first. Wen to the toilett  or what..smoke a cigar and she heard noises ?

[o Ventus]

I know,but those backrounds don't make sense to me... Ok, Qun bodyguard ? It works. Carta Dwarf ? Living on the streets, illegal activities and then goes to the conclave. What ? Why...

 

Elf: Gets sent by the keeper as a spy. Why ? These origin stories raise a looot of questions and lack in detail and it's not just the backgrounds but the conclave itself also. I still don't understand how the divine got captured,  HOW did my char interupt the ritual. How did she end up intereptung it in the first. Wen to the toilett  or what..smoke a cigar and she heard noises ?

The dwarf inquisitor is sent to the Conclave as a spy. Why would the dwarf equivalent to the Mafia NOT want to know about the political goings-on of the world?

[Vilegrim]

While I agree with you to a large degree, I must defend the many parties in the game in that the different parties were much more complicated than shown here. For example Aveline, of whom not a negative word is to be said, was shown to be a really effective head to the guard, it's just that the guard was not there to be a magical solution to everything.
 
There are two things that always amuse me/make me think when I read comments on how ineffectual Hawke was. First is the narrative itself, as DA2 being not only a tragedy, was also why something happened, whereas DAO and DAI are stories of what happened. Because of that, we get to see a lot of issues build up and take place during the game, which thus cannot be avoided, where in DAO/DAI we always arrived after everything had happened and all that remained was to clean up the place as there was magically always a powerful side who had a complete solution to the issue at hand. Take the Orlesian civil war as an example. Yeah, the Inquisitor solved it by attending a ball, walking around and just basically being constantly simple clear solutions to it.
 
Second, DA2 attempted, and in my opinion largely succeeded, in telling a more mature and darker story where killing everything was not a good way to solve anything, where the politics and forces affecting the city were so complicated and powerful that there was no simple silver bullet to take care of it and where almost all the antagonistic forces are driven by deeply held convictions for which they remain true to, instead of allowing that moment of proving them hypocrites to the world. What is the result? Threads crying out how Bioware games have lost their darkness and maturity in addition to threads complaining how ineffectual Hawke was despite the many things they actually do achieve in the game.

While I agree with you to a large degree, I must defend the many parties in the game in that the different parties were much more complicated than shown here. For example Aveline, of whom not a negative word is to be said, was shown to be a really effective head to the guard, it's just that the guard was not there to be a magical solution to everything.
 
There are two things that always amuse me/make me think when I read comments on how ineffectual Hawke was. First is the narrative itself, as DA2 being not only a tragedy, was also why something happened, whereas DAO and DAI are stories of what happened. Because of that, we get to see a lot of issues build up and take place during the game, which thus cannot be avoided, where in DAO/DAI we always arrived after everything had happened and all that remained was to clean up the place as there was magically always a powerful side who had a complete solution to the issue at hand. Take the Orlesian civil war as an example. Yeah, the Inquisitor solved it by attending a ball, walking around and just basically being constantly simple clear solutions to it.
 
Second, DA2 attempted, and in my opinion largely succeeded, in telling a more mature and darker story where killing everything was not a good way to solve anything, where the politics and forces affecting the city were so complicated and powerful that there was no simple silver bullet to take care of it and where almost all the antagonistic forces are driven by deeply held convictions for which they remain true to, instead of allowing that moment of proving them hypocrites to the world. What is the result? Threads crying out how Bioware games have lost their darkness and maturity in addition to threads complaining how ineffectual Hawke was despite the many things they actually do achieve in the game.

Like using the political power and influence gained by becoming champion to...sit on Hir hands for a year or so while Meridith and Orsini preperared their factions for battle and spat at each other like rival cats?

[Vilegrim]

the inclusion of the other races (especially dwarves) is just ridiculous its clear that they were going for human only but people whined too much about different races so they just tacked them on
even though it doesn't make any sense that a Qunari (or dwarf or elf) would become the herald of andraste
 
at least in Origins it seemed plausible (most of the time)

It is implausible that Andraste would choose an elf as her herald, which is fine, she didn't, people can believe it, but it is a lie

[o Ventus]

Like using the political power and influence gained by becoming champion to...sit on Hir hands for a year or so while Meridith and Orsini preperared their factions for battle and spat at each other like rival cats?

Hawke has no political power as the Champion, because Meredith declared herself Viscount. Her word was law.

 

"Champion" isn't a political position anyway. The people may love him/her, but he/she can't just walk up to the Town Hall and start changing laws. Hawke is a glorified celebrity.

[KaiserShep]

Like using the political power and influence gained by becoming champion to...sit on Hir hands for a year or so while Meridith and Orsini preperared their factions for battle and spat at each other like rival cats?

 

It was established right from the beginning that Knight-Commander Meredith was the true power of Kirkwall even before Hawke arrived to the city. Also, it bears reminding that it was Meredith herself that even threw this title out there in the first place, so it wields as much weight as she cares to acknowledge. Heck, Meredith could just as well have said "Hey, good job. Here's a few sovereigns for your trouble. Now go home so I can clean up this mess."

[Ieldra]

Before DAI came out, everyone was fully willing to cast hawke into the "fails at everything" category of protagonists, and the sheer amount of threads stating how "hawke should never have been the protag, it should have been the warden" were abound.

 

Now the cycle repeats itself, and its making me really start to think some people here just want to hate the current games no matter what the character does or how they act. Like, I could get hating the inquisitor, but the sudden heel-face turn you folks are showing to hawke is kinda telling its beyond a simple and fair criticism of a character whose writing might not be up to par.

 

I look forward to the next dragon age release, where people put on a new coating of rose colored memory for their glasses, and claim how the new protaganist was just the worse and that the inquisitor should have been the main character of the game.

It may be that different people are complaining.

 

It appears very plausible to me that people who like Hawkes more defined - and thus more impactful - lines would be the ones accusing the Inquisitor of blandness, while those who appreciate the more nuanced roleplaying the Inquisitor's less impactful lines make possible would've had problems with playing Hawke.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It may be that different people are complaining.

 

It appears very plausible to me that people who like Hawkes more defined - and thus more impactful - lines would be the ones accusing the Inquisitor of blandness, while those who appreciate the more nuanced roleplaying the Inquisitor's less impactful lines make possible would've had problems with playing Hawke.

 

I suppose so, the lack of the auto-dialogue changing to suite whichever option of dialogue you picked most was a bit disappointing. But I myself don't see the whole "Inquisistor Bland/Hawke was better" complaints. The way people complain makes it sound as if there were no tones to pick in responses at all, but that wasn't the case. In fact there were usually more options for crafting your response now, it justs that they split up the Aggressive and Diplomatic trees into multiple variants, and scattered the Sarcastic responses throughout, instead of lumping them all in easy to use categories.

[KaiserShep]

The Viacount only had as much power as Meredith choice to give him and he new that she would snuff him like a candle if he tried to do anything without her approval.  Thats is the truth for sure. But,  I think they could have done a better job establishing that. I think she should have made an earlier appearance and you talked to her before stuff hit the fan with the Qunari.  Even if it was only a "I'm the law here" speech given to Hawk before you head for the Deep Roads.  

Yeah, I wish Meredith had more of a presence earlier in the game. I could definitely see her strutting about the Viscount's keep, reminding people who really turns the gears around there.

[In Exile]

I suppose so, the lack of the auto-dialogue changing to suite whichever option of dialogue you picked most was a bit disappointing. But I myself don't see the whole "Inquisistor Bland/Hawke was better" complaints. The way people complain makes it sound as if there were no tones to pick in responses at all, but that wasn't the case. In fact there were usually more options for crafting your response now, it justs that they split up the Aggressive and Diplomatic trees into multiple variants, and scattered the Sarcastic responses throughout, instead of lumping them all in easy to use categories.

 

The tones are more level, however. But that's just a reflection of the dialogue being less Joss Whedon-like, which was a huge complaint over DA2. Even Varric and Sarcastic Hawke aren't, well, as colourful as Varric and Sarcastic Hawke. 

[Melca36]

Before DAI came out, everyone was fully willing to cast hawke into the "fails at everything" category of protagonists, and the sheer amount of threads stating how "hawke should never have been the protag, it should have been the warden" were abound.

 

Now the cycle repeats itself, and its making me really start to think some people here just want to hate the current games no matter what the character does or how they act. Like, I could get hating the inquisitor, but the sudden heel-face turn you folks are showing to hawke is kinda telling its beyond a simple and fair criticism of a character whose writing might not be up to par.

 

I look forward to the next dragon age release, where people put on a new coating of rose colored memory for their glasses, and claim how the new protaganist was just the worse and that the inquisitor should have been the main character of the game.

 

 

Exactly. The same people whining about Inquisition will be whining about DA4. I can't take half of the complaints seriously.

[Vilegrim]

Yeah, I wish Meredith had more of a presence earlier in the game. I could definitely see her strutting about the Viscount's keep, reminding people who really turns the gears around there.

The ability to make going out alone suicide for Chantry personnel is power at it's most raw, Hawke in theory had that power especially aggressive Hawke, but not used, another failure on hir part.

The blandness is the problem of voiced protags, you either make them extremely linear and dull, or hammy, or you get real lucky and have a femshep moment

[Cainhurst Crow]

The tones are more level, however. But that's just a reflection of the dialogue being less Joss Whedon-like, which was a huge complaint over DA2. Even Varric and Sarcastic Hawke aren't, well, as colourful as Varric and Sarcastic Hawke. 

 

I just assumed it was character evolution due to the events of the story. I mean, it's easy to be a joke cracking smartass when all your doing is running a racket in kirkwall. Not so much when you witness what went down with the circle annulment, your brother losing his mind to red lyrium, and than all the crap that went down in Inquisition. If anything, varric seems to be more or less how he was by Act 3 of the game, as well as how he was interacting with cassandra. So I'd say they did a good job keeping varric consistent, but that might be me and my own bias clouding my judgement.

 

As someone who played a primarily sarcastic hawke, there were times I thought hawke deserved a good punch or two for the jokes, even if they were funny for someone with a meta-perspective. But again, same thing applies as above, you can't really have characters cracking jokes every few seconds when bad **** is going down. Even Joss Whedon knows that and applies that rule of thumb for his works((the good ones at least like Firefly or Avengers)), when **** hits the fan, drop the comedy and get into the action.

[KaiserShep]

That's why it pays to not select every purple option all the time.

[Mathias]

This game had legit problems. The Inquisitor wasn't one of them.

 

Also is it Complain O' Clock already?

[Ieldra]

I suppose so, the lack of the auto-dialogue changing to suite whichever option of dialogue you picked most was a bit disappointing. But I myself don't see the whole "Inquisistor Bland/Hawke was better" complaints. The way people complain makes it sound as if there were no tones to pick in responses at all, but that wasn't the case. In fact there were usually more options for crafting your response now, it justs that they split up the Aggressive and Diplomatic trees into multiple variants, and scattered the Sarcastic responses throughout, instead of lumping them all in easy to use categories.

I think there is a noticeable difference in intensity. If you compare a line of Hawke's to a line of the Inquisitor, intended to convey the same tone and personality, you'll find that the Inquisitor's line is almost always more subdued - or Hawke's more extreme, depending on your viewpoint. This is good for roleplaying, since a subdued line is compatible with more different ways of intended character expression, but if you're the type of player who lets their characterization be done by the spoken lines, rather than seeing them as an expression of a preconceived characterization, you may find them inferior to Hawke's lines. At key points in the story, the Inquisitor makes up for that by having more options than Hawke, but that won't change the overall impression much for those who find the Inquisitor's lines lacking.

 

I'm firmly in the roleplayer camp, i.e. I put substantial imagination into my characters and I'm never content with letting the the game define them for me - so I prefer the Inquisitor - but I understand where some of the complaints are coming from.

 

In general, the less colorful dialogue also suits my preferences. One crazy Hawke is fun, but I'd hate such a pattern to repeat itself. My Inquisitors feel way more real than my Hawkes.

[In Exile]

I just assumed it was character evolution due to the events of the story. I mean, it's easy to be a joke cracking smartass when all your doing is running a racket in kirkwall. Not so much when you witness what went down with the circle annulment, your brother losing his mind to red lyrium, and than all the crap that went down in Inquisition. If anything, varric seems to be more or less how he was by Act 3 of the game, as well as how he was interacting with cassandra. So I'd say they did a good job keeping varric consistent, but that might be me and my own bias clouding my judgement.

 

As someone who played a primarily sarcastic hawke, there were times I thought hawke deserved a good punch or two for the jokes, even if they were funny for someone with a meta-perspective. But again, same thing applies as above, you can't really have characters cracking jokes every few seconds when bad **** is going down. Even Joss Whedon knows that and applies that rule of thumb for his works((the good ones at least like Firefly or Avengers)), when **** hits the fan, drop the comedy and get into the action.

 

See, to me, the whole point is that Sarcastic Hawke deals with his situation by deflecting it with humour. That's why the solo-scene after what happens with the Viscount's son at the Chantry is so lovely - it's just a barely coherent rambling rant about the whole affair, which is superficially funny but it's really just Hawke trying to come to terms with the whole thing.

Varric is the same way. The humour is just his way to keep from tearing all his (chest) hair out. 

 

In DA:I, the writing moves away from that and has the characters openly express their emotion as the underlying emotion. On the one hand, this helps because it doesn't seem like the game isn't taking itself seriously. But at the same time it hurts the characters, or at least changing them.

[Cainhurst Crow]

See, to me, the whole point is that Sarcastic Hawke deals with his situation by deflecting it with humour. That's why the solo-scene after what happens with the Viscount's son at the Chantry is so lovely - it's just a barely coherent rambling rant about the whole affair, which is superficially funny but it's really just Hawke trying to come to terms with the whole thing.

Varric is the same way. The humour is just his way to keep from tearing all his (chest) hair out. 

 

In DA:I, the writing moves away from that and has the characters openly express their emotion as the underlying emotion. On the one hand, this helps because it doesn't seem like the game isn't taking itself seriously. But at the same time it hurts the characters, or at least changing them.

 

I could see that, but at the same time, if it is just a coping mechanism there has to be more there than simply stating the joke at a poor time. There has to be a nuance of the tone to let the player know they're using humor to cope. Because this isn't a novel, we don't get to read the characters internalized thoughts or explanations for their actions. A novel has those expository moments to give us needed content and nuance. A visual medium like games or movies has to do it through audio or visual clues, for which sarcastic hawke didn't really have.

 

Lacking those, they just come off as disinterested jerks. Like, "Oh, your son died? Well that sucks, who wants some beer?" instead of "keep it together, you have to keep it together" which I assume would be what you believe is going on with sarcastic hawke.

 

Or maybe its just me. But I need more of a clue that a character is using the humor to cope with the moment and isn't just being an ******* to people just to get in a laugh or two.

[In Exile]

I could see that, but at the same time, if it is just a coping mechanism there has to be more there than simply stating the joke at a poor time. There has to be a nuance of the tone to let the player know they're using humor to cope. Because this isn't a novel, we don't get to read the characters internalized thoughts or explanations for their actions. A novel has those expository moments to give us needed content and nuance. A visual medium like games or movies has to do it through audio or visual clues, for which sarcastic hawke didn't really have.

 

Lacking those, they just come off as disinterested jerks. Like, "Oh, your son died? Well that sucks, who wants some beer?" instead of "keep it together, you have to keep it together" which I assume would be what you believe is going on with sarcastic hawke.

 

Or maybe its just me. But I need more of a clue that a character is using the humor to cope with the moment and isn't just being an ******* to people just to get in a laugh or two.

 

I guess it's just that that's what I'm actually like. So something like "Well, this can't get any worse. Tonight." is exactly the sort of tone-deaf, half-humorous, completely awkward and socially inappropriate line I would use. It's why I liked sarcastic Hawke so much. 

[KaiserShep]

I thought it worked pretty well to leave the thought processes of Hawke to our imagination. Kirkwall sucked blighted ass so she might as well laugh.

[Hiemoth]

The Viacount only had as much power as Meredith choice to give him and he knew that she would snuff him like a candle if he tried to do anything without her approval.  Thats is the truth for sure. But,  I think they could have done a better job establishing that. I think she should have made an earlier appearance and you talked to her before stuff hit the fan with the Qunari.  Even if it was only a "I'm the law here" speech given to Hawk before you head for the Deep Roads.  

 

First to nitpick, we actually did see Meredith in the first Act, she was actually one of the first NPCs you see there, we just didn't know it was Meredith then. I know that actually contributes nothing to the actual content message, but nitpicking is always fun.

 

Then to the actual point. I disagree slightly that they didn't establish Meredith, as I did feel she was very constant in her presence over the city and the way the other characters spoke of her and the Templars, as well as the history of Kirkwall found, established her very well as being someone who was truly in power. I kind of appreciated that approach in the matter instead having her stand around telling people she was in power as it made it seem someone secure in control instead of someone who is merely seeking it. Additionally, she was still actually subject to Elthina and not yet so driven beyond reason by her fanaticism, so seeking such active control would not have fitted her at that point.

 

As a matter of speculation, though, I do think they were originally intending to establish the dynamic between her and Orsino already in the first arc for three reasons. First, Orsino, his views and his relationship with Meredith was at the core of Act 3, yet we only first saw him at the end of Act 2. Second, the way both Meredith and Orsino were introduced to me felt like they were supposed to be characters we already recognized and this was to be to see them at their power. Otherwise the first time we see them they just seem like a random Templar and a random mage. Third, and this my heaviest evidence, when you do the Dreamer mission in Act 2, in one of the dreams Hawke is transformed to appear as Orsino, yet the character is not named or established in anyway. When I first played it I had no idea who this elf was supposed to be as the scene simply does not explain it all. That indicates to me that there was supposed to be a scene with Meredith and Orsino in Act 1 very long in to the development of the game, at least to the point that scene was created.

 

As a complete sidenote, I just realized how much I loved Meredith visual design. It really made a character to stand out and told a lot of her, yet managed to keep her believable in appearance.