362 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Except that all you had was another warden and a party consisting of random individuals, your order was destroyed and you had to end a Blight and stop the country from crumbling into civil war. You were not a badass herald of andraste with a super power to close freaking rifts that lead to another dimension where there's a city that, yes, you could enter into physically and become a god.

 

Honestly, all that just adds to the "My Warden is this badass who walks around dealing death and destruction on a world-changing scale". Handing you Alistair just adds on top of that because he's meant to look ineffective, compared to your character that everyone immediately considers to be the "Senior Warden", regardless of being the raw recruit. 

 

I'd point to KotOR 2 as being a better example of the "humble Origin" story. You never evolve past this lone dude running from Bounty Hunters/the Sith in a broken down ship. People actually mock you for being the whole "Broken Jedi" thing. The largest scale decision you ever get to make is deciding the Onderon Civil War.

 

The rest is personal story through and through. 

[Uhh.. Jonah]

And then we don't see him again until the second last mission. And I was honestly more annoyed about being manhandled than Haven being destroyed.

This. Hell, he knows you are alive, and he knows you are growing exponentially as an organization (you successfully attack a warden stronghold with a whole army!). What is he even doing when you're foiling his plans? Sipping tea and playing dress up with his dragon? We don't even see him again until essentially the penultimate mission.

[Nohvarr]

This means that the Warden was relatively easy pickings. If Loghain was really committed to the cause of finding and destroying any remaining Grey Wardens, there would be roving patrols of well-armed soldiers searching the countryside, and spies watching any nearby towns or cities to watch out for anything worth noting. I can freely wander around Denerim's market square with no problem, even though Howe is apparently sitting pretty in the Arl of Denerim's estate. Do I streak across the gates to get his attention?

So the fact he sent his pet dragon to Kill you when you went after the Grey Wardens doesn't count?

 

This. Hell, he knows you are alive, and he knows you are growing exponentially as an organization (you successfully attack a warden stronghold with a whole army!). What is he even doing when you're foiling his plans? Sipping tea and playing dress up with his dragon? We don't even see him again until essentially the penultimate mission.

 

So....Corey's arch nemesis takes away his Wardens, reducing the number of times he can rez, harms his pet Dragon, rips a hole open in the fade and takes away his demon army and you expect Corey to launch an attack on the Inquisitor while in a heavily defended fortress?

 

Perhaps I am missing something...

[line_genrou]

The only times we see Loghain are at Ostagar and at the Landsmeet, unless you recruit him. Other than that, all we get are three cutscenes that shatter immersion - "how could the player have known about this???" - and which were rightly castigated by many fans when Origins came out.

You really didn't notice that the challenge of your character in DAO was uniting the freaking country otherwise everyone would be destroyed by the blight? The Blight is the villain, not big bad Loghain. He was just an inconvenience

[Il Divo]

The only times we see Loghain are at Ostagar and at the Landsmeet, unless you recruit him. Other than that, all we get are three cutscenes that shatter immersion - "how could the player have known about this???" - and which were rightly castigated by many fans when Origins came out.

 

I just didn't think the cut-scenes really added much, beyond moustache-twirling villain status. It's kind of like how after getting each Star Map, the game flashes to Darth Malak trying to find some new way to kill you. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

True. And a part from the Haven incident, which is pretty much just a way to introduce the villain, you suffer zero setbacks in the game either. And the badguy doesn't resist your efforts in any way. He lets you stop his plans one by one.

 

Loghain, on the other hand, did his best to stop you at every turn.

 

And fails quite miserably too. I'm not sure what the difference is. At heast Haven was a setback. The Warden suffers no setbacks, save if you surrender/lose to Ser Cauthrien and even then she's dumb enough to just imprison you in a cardboard prison rather than kill the greatest threat to Loghain's rule then and there.

[luckybaer]

I agree that the range of responses are quite narrow from a crafting a personality standpoint.

 

Even though the Warden had no voice in DA: O, he had a wide range of responses available to him in most dialog situations.  If he wasn't careful with his responses, he could end up alienating any or all of his companions.  I liked that set up, because it forced me to think about how I was responding, lest I end up alienating companions I actually liked.  For example, Leliana was pretty cool in DA: O, so I liked having her around.  However, if I responded like a jerk to people needing assistance, or if I chose to be a cold-hearted murderer, I ran the risk of her absolutely despising me.

 

I don't even know the cumulative effect of my dialog decisions in DA: I.  All I get is a "So and So Approves Slightly," or "So and So Disapproves."  What the Hell does that mean in the cumulative scheme of things?  I had a much better feel for where I stood with my companions in DA: O.

[Al Foley]

This. Hell, he knows you are alive, and he knows you are growing exponentially as an organization (you successfully attack a warden stronghold with a whole army!). What is he even doing when you're foiling his plans? Sipping tea and playing dress up with his dragon? We don't even see him again until essentially the penultimate mission.

He is:

Trying to build his own army.  

And find a way into the Fade.  

 

He is essentially doing what you are doing.  Just because we do not see him doing anything does not mean he is sedate.  

[KaiserShep]

I don't think he thought two wardens would go that far. He didn't know about the grey warden treaties either.

 

I have a hard time buying that Loghain would not be aware of Warden treaties. The inner workings of the Wardens may be secret, but the treaties themselves would have to be common knowledge in order for them to hold any weight with anyone of any kind of importance. I mean, am I supposed to take this great military leader seriously if he isn't aware of documents meant to unify the forces of Thedas against a common enemy, when elfy tribesmen in the woods know about them?

 

As for his underestimation of the two remaining Wardens, that didn't stop him from keeping Riordan prisoner instead of casting him out. This kind of undermines his status as some great strategist. If he's going to go all anti-Warden, he'd might as well go all in.

[Hazegurl]

Honestly, all that just adds to the "My Warden is this badass who walks around dealing death and destruction on a world-changing scale". Handing you Alistair just adds on top of that because he's meant to look ineffective, compared to your character that everyone immediately considers to be the "Senior Warden", regardless of being the raw recruit. 

 

Actually Morrigan confronts Alistair about him being the Senior Warden yet allowing the Warden to lead. Alistair makes it clear that he is just a follower. Also most people would simply view the guy the other Warden is following as the Senior Warden. It's not like anyone outside the Wardens would know who was made one first.

[Draining Dragon]

The voice acting for the Inquisitor is also terrible. At least with my Warden, I could imagine their tone of voice. In this, you're forced to accept that the Inquisitor says everything in a monotone, like they don't care. The voice acting actually detracts from the character, in my opinion.

[line_genrou]

I have a hard time buying that Loghain would not be aware of Warden treaties. The inner workings of the Wardens may be secret, but the treaties themselves would have to be common knowledge in order for them to hold any weight with anyone of any kind of importance. I mean, am I supposed to take this great military leader seriously if he isn't aware of documents meant to unify the forces of Thedas against a common enemy, when elfy tribesmen in the woods know about them?

 

As for his underestimation of the two remaining Wardens, that didn't stop him from keeping Riordan prisoner instead of casting him out. This kind of undermines his status as some great strategist. If he's going to go all anti-Warden, he'd might as well go all in.

 

Those treaties were ancient, the warden didn't about it, Alistair didn't know the contents either until he read it and you actually had to show them to the places you went to so they know what was promised

[DarthEmpress]

I just want to know why the Inquisitor walks like a hunchback who looks like they need to poop.............  It's like a cross between a gorilla and a penguin walking o_o

[Uhh.. Jonah]

The only times we see Loghain are at Ostagar and at the Landsmeet, unless you recruit him. Other than that, all we get are three cutscenes that shatter immersion - "how could the player have known about this???" - and which were rightly castigated by many fans when Origins came out.

But he holds a presence outside of that. He bans the Grey Wardens, and every many NPC makes sure you know it. Also, the player has a connection with Loghain- we met him before, he seemed like a good guy, but then he betrays us. That gives the player much more than some big bad who shows up and destroys your base and to be never be seen again. We don't necessarily need to see Loghain to know he is formidable. With Cory, we pick off his plans one by one with him never really intervening, besides him sending his dragon (when he had a whole army of mages/templars at his disposal). He just seems weak.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

He is:
Trying to build his own army.  
And find a way into the Fade.  
 
He is essentially doing what you are doing.  Just because we do not see him doing anything does not mean he is sedate.

And he sure does a great job of that, doesn't he?

[Il Divo]

Actually Morrigan confronts Alistair about him being the Senior Warden yet allowing the Warden to lead. Alistair makes it clear that he is just a follower. Also most people would simply view the guy the other Warden is following as the Senior Warden. It's not like anyone outside the Wardens would know who was made one first.

 

That's my point though. I'm not saying there is a distinguishing physical characteristic that means people should look at Alistair as being in charge. He doesn't have a "I'm higher ranked badge".

 

It's that as a character, he reinforces the fact that your character is regarded as a leader, no matter how much of a newb he might be. It's sort of like how the PC has this habit of picking up new skills amazingly well that makes everyone around him go "ooh, that's amazing!". 

[Aimi]

Meh I didn't mind, it gave me an insight into him that I didn't get with Cornflakes.

Maybe? You don't really get much from those cutscenes that you couldn't get from the Landsmeet and Ostagar. Most of the character that Loghain dickriders like to tout comes from after his recruitment (at which point, y'know, he's not an antagonist, so you can't really credit the story for making him a complex/interesting opponent) and from the two novels he appears in.

I think Corypheus probably could've used more character development, because the crystals in the Temple of Mythal on the Calpernia run aren't really enough (and they kinda felt a bit forced). But at least he's demonstratively and credibly a threat to the Inquisition: he has plans, he has forces, he wins once or twice, and we see the consequences of an entirely plausible defeat in "In Hushed Whispers".

Loghain has plans, but they're utterly delusional (the ORLESIAN THREAT!!!111 forget the darkspawn!). He has forces, but unlike the Red Templars and Venatori and Freemen they are almost nowhere to be found. He doesn't ever win, and in fact the game's catalyst is when he deliberately chooses to lose. And even Loghain's eventual victory wouldn't benefit Loghain, it'd just mean that Ferelden would be consumed by the Blight.

[Hazegurl]

I think people who find either the Warden or the Inquisitor bland have got broken imaginations.  Unless Bioware dictates your character's emotions and responses for you, it's impossible for you to see and hear every nuanced reaction you might want.  They can't (and shouldn't try) to read your mind.

 

"Headcanon isn't an answer" to me just means "Bioware should read my mind and give me precisely the responses I want emoted in exactly the way I want." 

Not true. Most of the IQ's responses were nearly identical and the tone of the VA's were always bland. I don't mind auto dialogue or the wheel not saying precisely what is written. I do mind when the tone is one note and lacking in any sort of depth that leaves me stuck headcanoning human emotions and a personality. I want to be shown the personality and depth not imagine it being there.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

I think people who find either the Warden or the Inquisitor bland have got broken imaginations.  Unless Bioware dictates your character's emotions and responses for you, it's impossible for you to see and hear every nuanced reaction you might want.  They can't (and shouldn't try) to read your mind.

 

"Headcanon isn't an answer" to me just means "Bioware should read my mind and give me precisely the responses I want emoted in exactly the way I want." 

it works worked with silent protag and more diversified dialogue options

/shrug

[Al Foley]

And he sure does a great job of that, doesn't he?

Nice goal post moving, a phrase I rarely use, but it seems rather appropriate.  

 

You are right though.  But then again you can say the same about Skyrim, Witcher, ME, other DA games, and many others to varying degrees.  

[Rawgrim]

And fails quite miserably too. I'm not sure what the difference is. At heast Haven was a setback. The Warden suffers no setbacks, save if you surrender/lose to Ser Cauthrien and even then she's dumb enough to just imprison you in a cardboard prison rather than kill the greatest threat to Loghain's rule then and there.

 

He fails or you succeed in countering him? Haven wasn't too much of a setback. Instead of a temple you get a huge castle.

 

The warden's story is a bit different, Loghain has no sway over the treaties etc, so the only setback he can offer you is death. and he tries to do that several times.

 

How come Cory doesn't send an assassin or two against you? He doesn't even have to do anything huge. Just an assassin or two. Blackmail a companion. Make threats. Just anything. If it fails it fails. But at least he has made some sort of action in reaction to a plan having been ruined by you.

[Il Divo]

But he holds a presence outside of that. He bans the Grey Wardens, and every many NPC makes sure you know it. Also, the player has a connection with Loghain- we met him before, he seemed like a good guy, but then he betrays us. That gives the player much more than some big bad who shows up and destroys your base and to be never be seen again. We don't necessarily need to see Loghain to know he is formidable. With Cory, we pick off his plans one by one with him never really intervening, besides him sending his dragon (when he had a whole army of mages/templars at his disposal). He just seems weak.

 

Honestly, the sheer impact of "banning the Grey Wardens" meant:

 

some npc's attacked me in Lothering (chumps).

an npc outside Orzammar attacked me (another chump).

Zevran. 

 

As I recall, neither the Elves, the Mages, or the Dwarves really seem to care too much about Loghain's commands. But it's been a while since I played DA:O, so I could be forgetting something. 

[MoonDrummer]

Maybe? You don't really get much from those cutscenes that you couldn't get from the Landsmeet and Ostagar. Most of the character that Loghain dickriders like to tout comes from after his recruitment (at which point, y'know, he's not an antagonist, so you can't really credit the story for making him a complex/interesting opponent) and from the two novels he appears in.

I think Corypheus probably could've used more character development, because the crystals in the Temple of Mythal on the Calpernia run aren't really enough (and they kinda felt a bit forced). But at least he's demonstratively and credibly a threat to the Inquisition: he has plans, he has forces, he wins once or twice, and we see the consequences of an entirely plausible defeat in "In Hushed Whispers".

Loghain has plans, but they're utterly delusional (the ORLESIAN THREAT!!!111 forget the darkspawn!). He has forces, but unlike the Red Templars and Venatori and Freemen they are almost nowhere to be found. He doesn't ever win, and in fact the game's catalyst is when he deliberately chooses to lose. And even Loghain's eventual victory wouldn't benefit Loghain, it'd just mean that Ferelden would be consumed by the Blight.

WelI don't consider myself a loghain dickrider, Alistair is my bro. 

 

From the c utscenes I gathered that Loghain was an honourable man, but he allowed himself to slip further and further into bellend territory.