362 réponses à ce sujet

[line_genrou]

He fails or you succeed in countering him? Haven wasn't too much of a setback. Instead of a temple you get a huge castle.

 

The warden's story is a bit different, Loghain has no sway over the treaties etc, so the only setback he can offer you is death. and he tries to do that several times.

 

How come Cory doesn't send an assassin or two against you? He doesn't even have to do anything huge. Just an assassin or two. Blackmail a companion. Make threats. Just anything. If it fails it fails. But at least he has made some sort of action in reaction to a plan having been ruined by you.

 

Because you have a whole fortress, spies, an army and basically a **** load of people to protect you. 

[Rawgrim]

Honestly, the sheer impact of "banning the Grey Wardens" meant:

 

some npc's attacked me in Lothering (chumps).

an npc outside Orzammar attacked me (another chump).

Zevran. 

 

As I recall, neither the Elves, the Mages, or the Dwarves really seem to care too much about Loghain's commands. But it's been a while since I played DA:O, so I could be forgetting something. 

 

It also kept other wardens from being recruited, or arriving in Ferelden, I believe.

[Poledo]

Corypheus invades Haven and trashes your stronghold...


I don't appreciate Loghain's character, because essentially all his competence was informed and all his incompetence was demonstrated.

 

The thing about Cory, is at this point he is a force to be reckoned with and feared. I mean he just stomped your home! He then proceeds to be a joke whom you thwart at every turn being one step ahead of him the whole time.

[mindw0rk]

Why is the Inquisitor so bland?

 

To not differ from the rest of the game

[Rawgrim]

Because you have a whole fortress, spies, an army and basically a **** load of people to protect you. 

 

So what? Doesn't have to attack you inside the fortress. The Inquisitor does move about. Lay traps. Make a false quest for the inquisitor and ambush the fellow. Attack one of the keeps the inquisition has captured.

 

Where is that army when you are out and about doing quests? When you arrive in Orlais you are traveling with 3 friends. Not your entire army. Ok place for any assassination attempt, isn't it?

[MoonDrummer]

Because you have a whole fortress, spies, an army and basically a **** load of people to protect you. 

That didn't stop the Orlaisians going after Josie 

[Giantdeathrobot]

He fails or you succeed in countering him? Haven wasn't too much of a setback. Instead of a temple you get a huge castle.

 

The warden's story is a bit different, Loghain has no sway over the treaties etc, so the only setback he can offer you is death. and he tries to do that several times.

 

How come Cory doesn't send an assassin or two against you? He doesn't even have to do anything huge. Just an assassin or two. Blackmail a companion. Make threats. Just anything. If it fails it fails. But at least he has made some sort of action in reaction to a plan having been ruined by you.

 

He gives Erimond a Mark-countering spell (which does fail quite badly) and sends his dragon on your ass at Adamant; if Clarel hadn't changed her mind and Quizzy couldn't have opened the Rift to save their asses, things would have gone badly for the Inquisition. And finding Skyhold was purely fortuitous, no way Coryfish could ever have planned for it.

 

Loghain sends Zevran (or rather approves of Howe's plan) and sends Ser Cauthrien at Howe's estate to arrest you. That's the extent of his trying to hinder you ''several times''. So I'd say he's rather even with Corypheus. Hell, if we include Haven and the Temple of Mythal, Corypheus is indeed more active than Loghain ever was. he just sat in Denerim sending soldiers against the Bannorn until you kicked his ass at the Landsmeet.

[Il Divo]

It also kept other wardens from being recruited, or arriving in Ferelden, I believe.

 

Well, few to no Wardens will be recruited anyway, given that neither Alistair nor the Warden can perform the Joining.

 

But I do recall hearing that bit of info from someone in the game, but I meant in a more "in your face" sense. We might hear of Corypheus' vague background plans, but what works is that during many of those quest lines, I feel like I'm directly countering his plans: In Your Heart Shall Burn, the Grey Warden quest line, etc. There's a Mass Effect 1 element there: on Feros, Noveria, and Virmire we're dealing with something that Saren is trying to achieve.

 

I suppose you could argue the Sacred Ashes quest line was Loghain's doing, but once we get past the initial poisoning of Eamon, the quest line has virtually nothing to do with him. 

[Rawgrim]

Well, few to no Wardens will be recruited anyway, given that neither Alistair nor the Warden can perform the Joining.

 

But I do recall hearing that bit of info from someone in the game, but I meant in a more "in your face" sense. We might hear of Corypheus' vague background plans, but what works is that during many of those quest lines, I feel like I'm directly countering his plans: In Your Heart Shall Burn, the Grey Warden quest line, etc. There's a Mass Effect 1 element there: on Feros, Noveria, and Virmire we're dealing with something that Saren is trying to achieve.

 

I suppose you could argue the Sacred Ashes quest line was Loghain's doing, but once we get past the initial poisoning of Eamon, the quest line has virtually nothing to do with him. 

 

Riordan being captured was a big thing, I felt. He could have done the joining ceremony for sure. That fellow is underestimated. He went down like a boss.

[Il Divo]

Riordan being captured was a big thing, I felt. He could have done the joining ceremony for sure. That fellow is underestimated. He went down like a boss.

 

That he did. 

[Hazegurl]

That's my point though. I'm not saying there is a distinguishing physical characteristic that means people should look at Alistair as being in charge. He doesn't have a "I'm higher ranked badge".

 

It's that as a character, he reinforces the fact that your character is regarded as a leader, no matter how much of a newb he might be. It's sort of like how the PC has this habit of picking up new skills amazingly well that makes everyone around him go "ooh, that's amazing!". 

True, although, Alistair was sort of a newb himself. He was only a GW for six months and he seemed to idolize them more than anything. And I think he could have been coddled by Duncan.  My Warden just saw his family get wiped out and only saw the Wardens as his key to surviving as Duncan refused to help without recruiting him.  I think it's easy to say that because the Warden and Alistair joined under different circumstances and it being their first time facing a Blight, it sort of lends more of a reason behind the PC being regarded as the leader beyond simply being the PC. Alistair is there to be ineffective, but there can be a reason behind it. It's a matter of if you like that reason.

[Il Divo]

True, although, Alistair was sort of a newb himself. He was only a GW for six months and he seemed to idolize them more than anything. And I think he could have been coddled by Duncan.  My Warden just saw his family get wiped out and only saw the Wardens as his key to surviving as Duncan refused to help without recruiting him.  I think it's easy to say that because the Warden and Alistair joined under different circumstances and it being their first time facing a Blight, it sort of lends more of a reason behind the PC being regarded as the leader beyond simply being the PC. Alistair is there to be ineffective, but there can be a reason behind it. It's a matter of if you like that reason.

 

That's true, a lot of this comes down to a "How well do they sell the PC's super hero status"? The better the game can sell your PC on why you're making world-shattering decisions, the better off we are. 

 

Even with DA:O, I don't necessarily hate it for those reasons, it's one of my favorite Bioware games. But I also appreciate when a game sells a less epic premise, hence why I love KotOR 2 and Planescape: Torment so much. 

[Aimi]

You really didn't notice that the challenge of your character in DAO was uniting the freaking country otherwise everyone would be destroyed by the blight? The Blight is the villain, not big bad Loghain. He was just an inconvenience

 
Oh, I noticed. That is, in fact, my point. Loghain is just an inconvenience. He's isn't an interesting or credible antagonist.
 

I mean, am I supposed to take this great military leader seriously

 
*looks at Ostagar*

Nope.
 

But he holds a presence outside of that. He bans the Grey Wardens, and every many NPC makes sure you know it. Also, the player has a connection with Loghain- we met him before, he seemed like a good guy, but then he betrays us. That gives the player much more than some big bad who shows up and destroys your base and to be never be seen again. We don't necessarily need to see Loghain to know he is formidable. With Cory, we pick off his plans one by one with him never really intervening, besides him sending his dragon (when he had a whole army of mages/templars at his disposal). He just seems weak.

So, on the one hand, you have an opponent who 'bans the Grey Wardens', something that is mentioned in dialogue with precisely zero consequences to your personal experience apart from the intervention of a single weak band of thugs in the Lothering tavern. It certainly doesn't affect your ability to wander around the Denerim marketplace a few miles from the frigging palace. Apart from that, Loghain is essentially invisible; he sends a couple more poorly armed thugs to harass the Orzammar customs and immigration guys, and he dispatches an assassin that you either kill or recruit to your own cause. There's also an optional Chanters' Board quest that allows you to interfere with his ongoing war in the bannorn. That's basically it. The overwhelming majority of the PC's enemies are demons, undead, wild animals, darkspawn, or bandits.

And on the other hand, you have an opponent who actually attacks your base, kills a ton of your dudes, and forces you to flee to safety. He has multiple plots going at the same time, which you need to foil. His forces are scattered all but one of the maps in the game (the Fallow Mire); everywhere else, from the western abyss to Crestwood and the Storm Coast, you'll find Venatori and/or Red Templars running their own games and dueling with Inquisition forces for advantage and influence. Even the Exalted Plains/Emerald Graves battles with the Freemen of the Dales turn out to be traceable to Corypheus. And all of the main plot missions involve Corypheus or his minions in some way.

Now, you try to bridge the gap by pointing out that Loghain's competence doesn't need to be demonstrated, it can be informed. That's not particularly convincing. "Show, don't tell" is not always a good criticism. But when a character's informed, but never demonstrated abilities are so out of whack with the character's demonstrated abilities, I think that "show, don't tell" is a fairly accurate point to make. If Loghain was supposed to be a great general, we should've seen him being a great general; instead we get the ignominious retreat from Ostagar (a battle that itself is poorly plotted due to writing deficiencies) and a total failure to deal with the Warden and Alistair as threats. It's not merely that the information is something we don't actually see in gameplay; adding context through Codex entries and suchlike things is not a bad thing and it is not bad storytelling. It is that the information directly contradicts what we see in gameplay. That's a problem.

I simply don't see how Corypheus is less credible or omnipresent of a threat than Loghain was.

Now, Loghain might have been a more personal enemy for you. I won't argue with that, because personal is, y'know, personal. If Loghain's betrayal means that he meant more to you as a foe than did Corypheus, there's no way for me to gainsay that. But that's not what the topic of discussion was. Like Al Foley said in another context, it's moving the goal posts.

[Hazegurl]

We are playing different games then because I can tell you all my Inquisitors had distinct personalities and emotions.  Personalities and emotions that "diplomatic/sarcastic/aggresive" aren't nuanced enough to handle.  In DA2 if you wanted anything outside of those three, you were just out of luck.   

I suppose we were. Because I saw a dialogue wheel that pretty much said the same thing in nearly the same way. Despite having multiple options. Diplomatic/Diplomatic-Clever/Diplomatic-Slight attitude.

 

The only time something different was actually said was the emotion wheel, and even then the tone was nearly always the same. Good for you that you liked it and was able to rp the character type you like. I wanted to check the IQ's forehead for a tranquil brand. 

[SmilesJA]

I don't understand why DA2's dialogue system is considered superior to DAI's. They're the same thing, with the only exception being the icons on the wheel are missing. 

 

Top - diplomatic 

Middle - sarcastic 

Bottom - aggressive

 

The DAI protagonist can spout off some amusing stuff if you so choose. He/She can even break out the "well, sh*t" comment that Hawke fans love so much.

 

Mainly because the Inquisitor has the emotion of a tranquil despite having more options of expressions. The voice actors for both Hawkes were into their performances, leading to a lot of humorous and memorable moments.

[Ranadiel Marius]

We are playing different games then because I can tell you all my Inquisitors had distinct personalities and emotions. Personalities and emotions that "diplomatic/sarcastic/aggresive" aren't nuanced enough to handle. In DA2 if you wanted anything outside of those three, you were just out of luck.

I dunno, I was able to craft a fairly nuanced Hawke where I have a very good feel for his personality and could easily extrapolate how he would react in various circumstances. When I think to my Inq, the extent of his personality I can really formulate is he was a people pleaser....although that might have more to do with the loss of the friend/rivalry than anything else.

[Hazegurl]

Because people don't watch movies et al to hear neutral convos spoken in neutral tones. We have a thousand year old Magister running around and a hole in the sky and the PC is like throughout the entire ordeal.  I wanted Cory to just find his family/Clan/Whatever and kill them in front of him to get some emotion out of him. But then again, he probably wouldn't have felt anything considering that you can get your Clan killed and go have breakfast afterwards.

[TruffleMeister]

I'm glad others think this. Personally the responses are bland and kinda emotionless, but so is the voice acting. The female British voice for the Inquisitor is just so hollow. It's the same unflavored tone, even when they're supposed to be reacting very emotionally. This is why I personally pick the American female 2 voice, though it isn't that much better, the tone of voice offers kinda more depth. Also before the game was released, with all the trailers and gameplay walkthroughs my biggest concern was that the PC responses where way to short, and bland. It's like the Inquisitor responds in about 2 to 5 words per response.I personally miss my outrageously funny sarcastic Hawke, and my incredibly diverse Warden, who no matter the situation, had the option to be a ruthless butt or a nonshallot jester. Hope the next protagonist has more depth, and better VA'ing.

[Elfyoth]

easily the worst Bioware protagonist for me
Even though there seem to be more dialouge options for the Inquisitor to choose from most are useless since there are very few intersting RP options

We can't even be ruthless/evil (don't tell it wouldn't be realistic because he/she is the leader of this big organization, a freaking dwarf can be the herald of andraste it doesn't get more ridiculous than that), and sarcastic Inquisitor is just not funny

Hell the Warden has more depth even though he has no voice..( and Hawke is of course 10×better)

They decided to do a mix between the Warden and Hawke but failed
also headcanon doesn't count

I actually enjoy the quizzy jokes btw you hatw the quizzy you hate the game. Why you are here? Why you have to post one million posts about how you hate the game? And if you hate the quizzy dont have his/her pic in your profile. Just sayin.

[Felya87]

Just going to say this: I dind't care one minute for Hawke. Warden and Inquisitor? I call them all by names, and love all the ones I have created. Hawke almost always died in my Inquisition run.

[Draining Dragon]

I actually enjoy the quizzy jokes btw you hatw the quizzy you hate the game. Why you are here? Why you have to post one million posts about how you hate the game? And if you hate the quizzy dont have his/her pic in your profile. Just sayin.

It's called giving feedback.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Oh, I noticed. That is, in fact, my point. Loghain is just an inconvenience. He's isn't an interesting or credible antagonist.  *looks at Ostagar*Nope. So, on the one hand, you have an opponent who 'bans the Grey Wardens', something that is mentioned in dialogue with precisely zero consequences to your personal experience apart from the intervention of a single weak band of thugs in the Lothering tavern. It certainly doesn't affect your ability to wander around the Denerim marketplace a few miles from the frigging palace. Apart from that, Loghain is essentially invisible; he sends a couple more poorly armed thugs to harass the Orzammar customs and immigration guys, and he dispatches an assassin that you either kill or recruit to your own cause. There's also an optional Chanters' Board quest that allows you to interfere with his ongoing war in the bannorn. That's basically it. The overwhelming majority of the PC's enemies are demons, undead, wild animals, darkspawn, or bandits.And on the other hand, you have an opponent who actually attacks your base, kills a ton of your dudes, and forces you to flee to safety. He has multiple plots going at the same time, which you need to foil. His forces are scattered all but one of the maps in the game (the Fallow Mire); everywhere else, from the western abyss to Crestwood and the Storm Coast, you'll find Venatori and/or Red Templars running their own games and dueling with Inquisition forces for advantage and influence. Even the Exalted Plains/Emerald Graves battles with the Freemen of the Dales turn out to be traceable to Corypheus. And all of the main plot missions involve Corypheus or his minions in some way.Now, you try to bridge the gap by pointing out that Loghain's competence doesn't need to be demonstrated, it can be informed. That's not particularly convincing. "Show, don't tell" is not always a good criticism. But when a character's informed, but never demonstrated abilities are so out of whack with the character's demonstrated abilities, I think that "show, don't tell" is a fairly accurate point to make. If Loghain was supposed to be a great general, we should've seen him being a great general; instead we get the ignominious retreat from Ostagar (a battle that itself is poorly plotted due to writing deficiencies) and a total failure to deal with the Warden and Alistair as threats. It's not merely that the information is something we don't actually see in gameplay; adding context through Codex entries and suchlike things is not a bad thing and it is not bad storytelling. It is that the information directly contradicts what we see in gameplay. That's a problem.I simply don't see how Corypheus is less credible or omnipresent of a threat than Loghain was.Now, Loghain might have been a more personal enemy for you. I won't argue with that, because personal is, y'know, personal. If Loghain's betrayal means that he meant more to you as a foe than did Corypheus, there's no way for me to gainsay that. But that's not what the topic of discussion was. Like Al Foley said in another context, it's moving the goal posts.

Great point. The thing for me is, though, is that we keep slashing away at his lackeys until cory himself ends up a shriveled up mess at the end of the game. He never rises in power. We take him out blow by blow and he never retaliates. That's why I see him as weak. Loghain at least sends an assassin and tries to turn the land against you (just because you only fight a few men due to that fact, it still doesn't negate it, and it's even present in the landsmeet.)

Also, I said he was formidable because of his betrayal, which was in-game.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Going to have to disagree again. Cassandra invites you to help the Inquisition (possibly at sword point) during the opening chapters of the game. You are not the leader just a highly effective agent/figure to ralley around. It's not until you prove yourself by allying with the Mages or The Templars and then Standing against Corpheyus at Haven that you officially lead the Inquisition.

That particular comment was actually more in reference to the Mark. The game tells you from the get-go that this mark on your hand sets you apart from everyone else, owing to its ability to close rifts. As a result, you get a sense of being this superhero type of person as soon as you start, and you don't really know what's going on.

 

My suspicion is this is related to why the Inquisitor is hard to relate to as a character. Had the game given us the option to play as them before actually making contact with the orb, things might have been different. I feel the game should have started right at the Conclave at least, not after.