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[Bioware-Critic]

This. I love how everyone is jumping on this article like a pack of starving wild dogs.
 
The 'average', new coming gamer might have difficulty learning the game. The same average gamer probably doesn't even complete the games they own, if completion rates for most games are to be taken seriously.
 
The people on this site aren't even the subject of the article in question, yet everyone and their mother feels the odd need to attack EA for 'dumbing down' the series and complain about how Bioware apparently lost their way. I'm not exactly a fan of EA, but seriously people, criticize them for the right reasons (or for actual reasons at all).

 
Well nobody ever shows his face here on the forum ... only avatars.
So I will start a new trend of honest confession ...
 
This is me:

Spoiler

 
I am not the most beautiful of the bunch, but at least I am perceptive and my mind and it's senses are awake!
That is important to me. I don't care how I smell to you or what my reputation is in your eyes or anyones.
But I only say this as a clarification and not to criticise you ...
 
And about your arguments regarding the article you made in your posting ...
 
"Everyone on this forum is subject to the consequences that may come from these kind of topics and the plans that may be executed to achieve such "ideas/thinking" that were indirectly talked about in this article! Dismantling core-values of entire genres by hollowing them out to ensure corporate expansions "to the moon and back" even though ... "on the moon" ... there are no potential consumers, is disruptive and descructive for the entire industry. To change every game to better be able to copy the success of a title like Skyrim is pure nonsense. Dangerous nonsense! The guidelines given by the big publishers reflect a lot of ill-educated thinking these days ..."
 
 
See you around, o Ventus
 
P.s.:

Spoiler

This is me when I am looking for a meaty thread:

 (As usual, I am never too tired to ... fart a "king of the jungle" into there lazy lions face whenever I get the chance ...

Seriously, I love doing that. I don't know why  They are way too slow and generally not build to run over long distances anyway - so there is no danger of getting caught anyway, when you are a wild dog )

 

And this is me when I have found one:

[AlanC9]

 
Dismantling core-values of entire genres by hollowing them out to ensure corporate expansions "to the moon and back" even though ... "on the moon" ... there are no potential consumers, is disruptive and descructive for the entire industry.

Wait a sec... needing more than two hours to learn how to play the game is a core value for RPGs?

[Terodil]

"learn how to play" is so absolute and very little differentiated.

Of course you are expected to learn a little bit over the entire duration of the game. You could also call it challenge, learning curve, what have you.

If there was neither opportunity, nor requirement, nor incentive for any kind of progression I doubt we could call it a game. It'd be the equivalent of mechanically moving blocks from one side of the board to the other, field by field by field.

So yes, I'd consider learning/progress a core value for RPGs.

[Bioware-Critic]

Wait a sec... needing more than two hours to learn how to play the game is a core value for RPGs?

 

Complexity and such ... is!

 

Skyrim is allabout one thing and one thing alone: "Killing stuff!"

The only other aspect it has going is: "Materialism!"

 

RPG's, for me, are not about "button-mashing an enemy to death" or about "buying and selling" ...

 

Skyrim on the other hand is mostly about that. Because it has NO difficulty whatsoever. I never have to think or make plans or execute strategies ...

And the publishers seem to think this is the new road to paradise ... And I loath that!

 

 

"learn how to play" is so absolute and very little differentiated.

Of course you are expected to learn a little bit over the entire duration of the game. You could also call it challenge, learning curve, what have you.

If there was neither opportunity, nor requirement, nor incentive for any kind of progression I doubt we could call it a game. It'd be the equivalent of mechanically moving blocks from one side of the board to the other, field by field by field.

So yes, I'd consider learning/progress a core value for RPGs.

 

I would have put it differently, but ... yes!

 

 

AlanC9, if I don't have to get my head around things and to pay real attention to the systems in place to fully get a grasp of the potential I am playing around with ... then I am not playing a RPG - it is that simple in the end!

 

If I am really honest ...

I am only happy while playing a game when I have read hundreds of pages of information about it and if I constantly discover new things about a game ...

I am not looking for a God-of-War type of game. Never have and never will.

 

A RPG that has no depth to it is a dead shell to me. It has no life of it's own and no character ...

[CenturyCrow]

Who wants to bet this guy still doesn't know how to turn on his computer?

 

All things considered, I'd guess he figured out his job in 2 hours or less.

[Terodil]

From what I glimpsed from Wikipedia (which, ofc, does not have to be accurate, who knows who doctored that entry), that dude seems quite a guru for game design. He's also responsible for training project leads.

Yeah...

[Bioware-Critic]

Who wants to bet this guy still doesn't know how to turn on his computer?

 

All things considered, I'd guess he figured out his job in 2 hours or less.

 

... rofl!

[Bioware-Critic]

From what I glimpsed from Wikipedia (which, ofc, does not have to be accurate, who knows who doctored that entry), that dude seems quite a guru for game design. He's also responsible for training project leads.

 

Yeah, true!

 

But still he was susceptable for "BRAIN CANCER"!

I guess success and too much money ... can sometimes ... make half knowledge seem like actual "thinking" and half-witted thoughts seem like real "ideas".

Then again, in such a case ... brain cancer ... really is your best friend!

[AlanC9]

AlanC9, if I don't have to get my head around things and to pay real attention to the systems in place to fully get a grasp of the potential I am playing around with ... then I am not playing a RPG - it is that simple in the end!
 
If I am really honest ...
I am only happy while playing a game when I have read hundreds of pages of information about it and if I constantly discover new things about a game ...
I am not looking for a God-of-War type of game. Never have and never will.
 
A RPG that has no depth to it is a dead shell to me. It has no life of it's own and no character ...

Is any of this actually incompatible with being able to play the game as fast as that EA guy thought we should?

[Bioware-Critic]

Is any of this actually incompatible with being able to play the game as fast as that EA guy thought we should?

 

Please excuse - I don't follow !?

[Evaderik]

"DA: I" is pegi 18+.

Only stupid loser or Alzheimer's patient can talk about "hard to learn".

[DanteYoda]

So, here it is, folks: The reason why we see increasingly dumbed down Dragon Age games (among others);

 

It is because the big chief at EA thinks games are STILL too hard to learn - apparently, he lacks the mental capacity to play intelligent games. But alas, we all have to suffer for it.

 

http://www.pcgamer.c...-hard-to-learn/

 

So from now on, whenever you see a game posing as as RPG, with the EA logo on it, it's really not and RPG. And that goes for DAI as well.

 

(At least now we know why DAI was so dumbed down).

Scary... Explains a lot...If games are too hard to learn, man what are we going to do about real life...

[Sidney]

Sigh, this is depressing. I remember when I first played BG 2 I had no idea what Thaco was, nor did I know that lower AC values were better than higher AC values. But, I dug into the game and took the time to learn what Thaco, AC, Saving throws were and it was awesome. It felt great and in the end it opened up an entirely new genre to me. I like DA:I and I have supported Bioware as a game developer for damn near 15 years but, this is just bull ****!
Somebody needs to slap this guy with a pair of ****ing clown shoes. Well I'm out, I'm mad as hell and if I keep on ranting I will get myself in trouble.

No, it wasn't awesome to learn THACO. It was awesome to play BG. If making good numbers be higher and bad numbers be lower, the way any sane person would expect it to, helps people understand the game that can't be a bad thing. The challenge in any game should come from playing the game not learning the game. You look at great board games like Pandemic or Forbidden Island or LeHavre or Agricola and the rules are amazingly slim but no one is going say those things lack depth even though they are not complex.

I know there is a crap ton of elitist snobbery on these boards and people feel special because they play a game or type of game but no one else cares.

[Terodil]

Well, THAC0 was, imo, a design mistake on the part of D&D. A bad one, but I still agree with the idea; it was a complex, but intriguing and immensely rewarding system. Choices mattered.

The simpler stuff gets, the less choices matter (and the less mistakes you can make, ofc). It takes away replayability, and possibly identification potential. I still can't wrap my head around the removal of conversational skills in DA:I. Who had the brilliant idea to replace them with those terrible inquisition perks? (Although considering how overbearingly combat-centric DA:I is, and how few conversation checks there are, it was probably appropriate. But still very, very wrong from a fundamental game design perspective, IMO.)

[AlanC9]

Please excuse - I don't follow !?

All he actually said was that needing to take two hours to get into playing a game isn't a good design for most players. Nothing you went on about is incompatible with that point. There could be hundreds of hours of stuff to read about a game that you can nevertheless get into playing quickly, as long as you don't expect to be playing it at a high level right away.

[AlanC9]

Well, THAC0 was, imo, a design mistake on the part of D&D. A bad one, but I still agree with the idea; it was a complex, but intriguing and immensely rewarding system. Choices mattered.

Choices about THAC0? Intriguing?

[Terodil]

No, I meant the (boiled down) D&D-based system BG/NWN etc. used.

[DanteYoda]

Whelp, prepare for the next DA game to have only four skill slots.

 

Why stop there we could just have one skill slot and we can press it over and over again like a chimpanzee, they could even give us treats..

 

All he actually said was that needing to take two hours to get into playing a game isn't a good design for most players. Nothing you went on about is incompatible with that point. There could be hundreds of hours of stuff to read about a game that you can nevertheless get into playing quickly, as long as you don't expect to be playing it at a high level right away.

 

If it takes you two hours to get into a RPG game... Then you are doing it wrong... its not the game its you..

[Sidney]

Well, THAC0 was, imo, a design mistake on the part of D&D. A bad one, but I still agree with the idea; it was a complex, but intriguing and immensely rewarding system. Choices mattered.e, IMO.)

What was intriguing? You kept piling on crap until you hit -20. Im trying to think of any choice that mattered. In fact THACO had the "virtue" of not having defense and armor be two separate things so you never had a make a choice between not being hit or not having your armor breached for example. -20 was the same damn thing rather you were a monk with an Magic Stone or a fighter slathered in plate mail.

[Bioware-Critic]

All he actually said was that needing to take two hours to get into playing a game isn't a good design for most players. Nothing you went on about is incompatible with that point. There could be hundreds of hours of stuff to read about a game that you can nevertheless get into playing quickly, as long as you don't expect to be playing it at a high level right away.

 

Well theoretically it is just like you say. But in my experience ...

 

Well, you and me, AlanC9, we are interpreting this guys intentions REALLY, REALLY differently!

 

I think, these EA managers, they don't even see the games they finance as games ...

They see them as products they sell. They don't give a damn what they have to compromise or sacrifice to get what they want! They will not stop at wanting something ... they will destroy a few important things as well! And by that I mean a lot! They don't seem to know an aweful lot about what they are selling. They just know it will earn them money - right now! Everything else is of no concern to them.

 

These morons are just "spitballin'" ...

[TheOgre]

This. I love how everyone is jumping on this article like a pack of starving wild dogs.

The 'average', new coming gamer might have difficulty learning the game. The same average gamer probably doesn't even complete the games they own, if completion rates for most games are to be taken seriously.

The people on this site aren't even the subject of the article in question, yet everyone and their mother feels the odd need to attack EA for 'dumbing down' the series and complain about how Bioware apparently lost their way. I'm not exactly a fan of EA, but seriously people, criticize them for the right reasons (or for actual reasons at all).

The target audience is indeed the problem however... The reason why I'm upset is my game is limited by impatient people who won't take the time to learn..

[Terodil]

Okay, seems I was too imprecise with my wording. I naturally did not just mean THAC0, but everything that made up a character in the D&D universe. You *could* make a charismatic fighter with high persuasion skills, but you would obviously suffer in your martial abilities and feats. You could roll a wizard with low wisdom so wish could backfire hilariously. Your front-line tank could specialise in saving throws, but take a hit in AC etc. etc. etc. In essence, you'd always have to give up something in order to do well at another. That was choice, that was character building, that was replayability.

In DA:I, you can choose if you want to kill stuff with a blue flash or a red flash. No conversational skills, no crafting skills, no lockpicking = no actual investment in anything. No choice. No replayability. Boring.